C Vladislav Kamenev (2014, 42nd, NSH; traded to COL)

Flgatorguy87

Registered User
Jul 7, 2011
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East Nasty
I am optimistic about Kam still. I do however think his ceiling isn't looking as high as it once was. Something that is over used, but very appropriate for him.....he does everything well, but nothing great. I think Nashville fans soured on him a little because he isn't a terribly exciting player, but that's ok. Kam is the type you need to fill your lineup, steady, smart, can chip in goals. I sort of like the Mike Fisher comparison I have seen, but I don't think Kam shows that compete level that Fisher has. I kind of like the Martin Hanzal comparison. He doesn't have the size to that extent, but the all around game with some playmaking sprinkled in. I would say that is his ceiling, and obviously his floor is as low as you want to make it for a prospect with a couple games experience.

He really is a center from everything I have seen, watched, and read. The winger talk looks to be based on a number crunch which I get. Playmaking/defensively responsible winger on a checking/shut down line I guess is a decent fit.
 

SoundAndFury

Registered User
May 28, 2012
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I don't know how much it applies now because last time I saw Kamenev was ages ago but Lars Eller came to mind. I think that's pretty much what he projects as.
 

Atas2000

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
13,601
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Pavel Buchnevich

WJC 2014/15 "A" 7gp 1g 5a 6pts
NHL 2017/18 16gp 6g 6a 12pts


Vladislav Kamenev

WJC 2015/16 "C" 7gp 5g 1a 6pts
NHL 2017/18 0gp 0g 0a 0pts

But what do I know? I am that guy that just hates everything north american, right? Developing in north american minors does wonders to russian forwards.
 

blindpass

Registered User
May 7, 2010
1,417
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Pavel Buchnevich

WJC 2014/15 "A" 7gp 1g 5a 6pts
NHL 2017/18 16gp 6g 6a 12pts


Vladislav Kamenev

WJC 2015/16 "C" 7gp 5g 1a 6pts
NHL 2017/18 0gp 0g 0a 0pts

But what do I know? I am that guy that just hates everything north american, right? Developing in north american minors does wonders to russian forwards.

Ignoring the fact that Kamenev is PPG in the AHL just makes it look like you will reach to any lengths to try to make your case.

Are you counting the promising Russians in Russia who don't develop well too (not that you could put Kamenev in that class), or can those just be brushed under the carpet?
 

Atas2000

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Jan 18, 2011
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Ignoring the fact that Kamenev is PPG in the AHL just makes it look like you will reach to any lengths to try to make your case.

Are you counting the promising Russians in Russia who don't develop well too (not that you could put Kamenev in that class), or can those just be brushed under the carpet?
Ignoring what? That he is a PPG in some inferior league? He would probably be a beast in the MHL, right?

What I am not ignoring is the fact that he is not reaching the level of a meaningful league by now obviously. North american "development" does that to russian forwards all the time somehow.

What promising Russians? Give me names. I did the comparison for Buchnevich' WJC squad. Nearly every single one of the guys who stayed in Russia are producing. All who went to NA are on the best way to become careeer AHLers.

And why should we talk about them anyway? Why not comparing similar prospects? That is why I took Buchnevich for comparison and emphasized to you the roles they played on their WJC teams. They were both top prospects. Every WJC team has a 4th line too. We could compare to those players, but it wouldn't look nice for Kamenev either.

He is not getting anywhere after his jump to NA so far. It's a fact.
 

Fantomas

Registered User
Aug 7, 2012
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Kamenev would fare much better in Russia. But he'll have an NHL job probably within a year.
 

blindpass

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May 7, 2010
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Ignoring what? That he is a PPG in some inferior league? He would probably be a beast in the MHL, right?

What I am not ignoring is the fact that he is not reaching the level of a meaningful league by now obviously. North american "development" does that to russian forwards all the time somehow.

What promising Russians? Give me names. I did the comparison for Buchnevich' WJC squad. Nearly every single one of the guys who stayed in Russia are producing. All who went to NA are on the best way to become careeer AHLers.

And why should we talk about them anyway? Why not comparing similar prospects? That is why I took Buchnevich for comparison and emphasized to you the roles they played on their WJC teams. They were both top prospects. Every WJC team has a 4th line too. We could compare to those players, but it wouldn't look nice for Kamenev either.

He is not getting anywhere after his jump to NA so far. It's a fact.

Ok, maybe I understand where you are coming from. Certainly there are many players who thrive in the KHL who can't seem to do the same in the NHL. Plotnikov, Larson, Vey, etc. (I'd add Shipachyov if I was arguing the way you do) If the argument is that Kamenev might have found more stardom at home that might be true, but i see no evidence that doing so would have better prepared him for the NHL.

Anecdotally comparing him to Buchnevich offensively is insincere for many reasons, especially how you did it (ignoring AHL stats). Kamenev is a year behind, so at best you should be using Buch's 2016-17 stats, he's also cracking an offensively needy roster, and was always considered to by the more dynamic offensive prospect. Kamenev was prized because he plays a more "complete North American game" and may well have only been drafted where he was because he was willing to come over immediately -- whereas Buch was worth a risk despite "the Russian factor".

All that said I can understand why you'd be bothered seeing talent moving to the other side of the world.

Getting back to Kamenev, there's really no reason to think he won't make the step to the NHL soon, his game should translate well though he may not get a scoring role.
 

kp61c

Registered User
Apr 3, 2012
3,746
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separate civilization
Pavel Buchnevich

WJC 2014/15 "A" 7gp 1g 5a 6pts
NHL 2017/18 16gp 6g 6a 12pts


Vladislav Kamenev

WJC 2015/16 "C" 7gp 5g 1a 6pts
NHL 2017/18 0gp 0g 0a 0pts

But what do I know? I am that guy that just hates everything north american, right? Developing in north american minors does wonders to russian forwards.
dump comparison. anyway, i watched buch a couple of times this year, he looked like a complete bum. the stats will go down eventually.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
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w/ Renly's Peach
I am optimistic about Kam still. I do however think his ceiling isn't looking as high as it once was. Something that is over used, but very appropriate for him.....he does everything well, but nothing great. I think Nashville fans soured on him a little because he isn't a terribly exciting player, but that's ok. Kam is the type you need to fill your lineup, steady, smart, can chip in goals. I sort of like the Mike Fisher comparison I have seen, but I don't think Kam shows that compete level that Fisher has. I kind of like the Martin Hanzal comparison. He doesn't have the size to that extent, but the all around game with some playmaking sprinkled in. I would say that is his ceiling, and obviously his floor is as low as you want to make it for a prospect with a couple games experience.

He really is a center from everything I have seen, watched, and read. The winger talk looks to be based on a number crunch which I get. Playmaking/defensively responsible winger on a checking/shut down line I guess is a decent fit.

That's 100% what the deal is. Looking at their U24 roster, the Avs had MacKinnon as the #1C for the foreseeable future, behind him they had Jost / Compher / Kerfoot who have everything except for size, and with Beaudin & Toninato they had bigger Cs with great IQ & two way games for the 4C spot (Beaudin even having middle 6 skill).

So with Kamenev & Bowers coming in both being bigger, very well rounded, Centers with middle 6 skill; it's inevitable that some of these centers end up on the wing.
 
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AtlantaWhaler

Thrash/Preds/Sabres
Jul 3, 2009
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There is still a boatload of time, but he was once thought of as the Preds offensive savior, and is now more of a decent option at #2/#3 center. Hope that turns around.
 

Atas2000

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Jan 18, 2011
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Ok, maybe I understand where you are coming from. Certainly there are many players who thrive in the KHL who can't seem to do the same in the NHL. Plotnikov, Larson, Vey, etc. (I'd add Shipachyov if I was arguing the way you do) If the argument is that Kamenev might have found more stardom at home that might be true, but i see no evidence that doing so would have better prepared him for the NHL.

Anecdotally comparing him to Buchnevich offensively is insincere for many reasons, especially how you did it (ignoring AHL stats). Kamenev is a year behind, so at best you should be using Buch's 2016-17 stats, he's also cracking an offensively needy roster, and was always considered to by the more dynamic offensive prospect. Kamenev was prized because he plays a more "complete North American game" and may well have only been drafted where he was because he was willing to come over immediately -- whereas Buch was worth a risk despite "the Russian factor".

All that said I can understand why you'd be bothered seeing talent moving to the other side of the world.

Getting back to Kamenev, there's really no reason to think he won't make the step to the NHL soon, his game should translate well though he may not get a scoring role.
You are starting with a premise that all development is "preparing for the NHL". It is not. I don't view the NHL as the pinnacle of hockey. Players earn money playing in some leagues. The only goal that matters is international competition. That's the top level they should try to reach. Otherwise playing in the KHL is just as good for a career.

In case of Kamenev we are talking about a prospect. It's not about stardom. It's about developing to become the best hockey player possible. In that regard playing in the KHL instead of AHL would be a much better path for Kamenev. And he was told that when he was leaving. I can somewhat understand guys who leave because they don't see a chance to make a KHL roster soon, but Kamenev was a KHL regular by the time he left. And it seems he only regressed since that time or stagnated at best.

And nope, Buchnevich wasn't considered a better prospect. They were both considered among top prospects for their birth year. Buchnevich also went through some growing pains, but he developed very well in Russia, has really grown as a player and was miles ahead of Kamenev last year. No need for cherry picking about age. Kamenev won't reach Buchnevich's this year's numbers next season. Book it. And Buchnevich is underused and seems to be the whippong boy for the coach. And he still produces. He will be a really good one. Might have worked similarly for Kamenev if he chose to stay for a couple of years.
 

Goulet17

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May 22, 2003
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In all seriousness, is the purpose of this thread to discuss Buchnevich and the merits of KHL development or Kamenev? It seems to be veering off course in my mind.
 

cgf

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Oct 15, 2010
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In all seriousness, is the purpose of this thread to discuss Buchnevich and the merits of KHL development or Kamenev? It seems to be veering off course in my mind.

Nah, this is what happens to every thread about a russian prospect. This is the "NA ruins russian prospects" board afterall.
 

Atas2000

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
13,601
3,269
In all seriousness, is the purpose of this thread to discuss Buchnevich and the merits of KHL development or Kamenev? It seems to be veering off course in my mind.
KHL development for Kamenev. Fixed it for you. Does it look relevant to the thread now?
 

Atas2000

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
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Nah, this is what happens to every thread about a russian prospect. This is the "NA ruins russian prospects" board afterall.
It happens a lot. Should we now put the tabu on that fact so North Americans can sleep well and firmly believe north american leagues are the best in every regard?
 
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cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
59,984
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w/ Renly's Peach
It happens a lot. Should we now put the tabu on that fact so North Americans can sleep well and firmly believe north american leagues are the best in every regard?

I mean, is it really so much to ask that you keep it to the thread dedicated to that topic? Or must every thread involving a russian devolve into this same old agenda-driven drivel?
 

Ivan13

Not posting anymore
May 3, 2011
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Again with this crap. Every single thread needs to be ruined by this nonsense.

On a note that's not OT and dumb beyond belief, Kam just had an assist that'll be AOTY candidate.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
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dump comparison. anyway, i watched buch a couple of times this year, he looked like a complete bum. the stats will go down eventually.

This is a dumb comment. He's been one of our best players. His stats should only go up, as his ice time increases. Its been increasing the last number of games as the coach has realized his importance to the team.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
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In all seriousness, is the purpose of this thread to discuss Buchnevich and the merits of KHL development or Kamenev? It seems to be veering off course in my mind.

Its a decent point, and I say that as someone who like's Kamenev's game, and thinks he will be a middle 6 NHL forward.

Kamenev left the KHL too early. He chose a better path with AHL than CHL, but neither was probably the best path for him. If he would've stayed in the KHL, he could've developed into more of a top 6 possibility than middle 6 possibility. Why do almost all the best Russian forwards develop for multiple years in the KHL before they come over? Is it a coincidence? Kamenev took a path that if you look at the numbers of those who've taken that path before, it usually does not work out.

Again with this crap. Every single thread needs to be ruined by this nonsense.

On a note that's not OT and dumb beyond belief, Kam just had an assist that'll be AOTY candidate.

Thats being disingenuous. No one talks about it in the Kaprizov thread or the Shestyorkin thread or the Sorokin thread because the situation doesn't apply, yet it does to Kamenev because of the path he chose.
 

blindpass

Registered User
May 7, 2010
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You are starting with a premise that all development is "preparing for the NHL". It is not. I don't view the NHL as the pinnacle of hockey. Players earn money playing in some leagues. The only goal that matters is international competition. That's the top level they should try to reach. Otherwise playing in the KHL is just as good for a career.

In case of Kamenev we are talking about a prospect. It's not about stardom. It's about developing to become the best hockey player possible. In that regard playing in the KHL instead of AHL would be a much better path for Kamenev. And he was told that when he was leaving. I can somewhat understand guys who leave because they don't see a chance to make a KHL roster soon, but Kamenev was a KHL regular by the time he left. And it seems he only regressed since that time or stagnated at best.

And nope, Buchnevich wasn't considered a better prospect. They were both considered among top prospects for their birth year. Buchnevich also went through some growing pains, but he developed very well in Russia, has really grown as a player and was miles ahead of Kamenev last year. No need for cherry picking about age. Kamenev won't reach Buchnevich's this year's numbers next season. Book it. And Buchnevich is underused and seems to be the whippong boy for the coach. And he still produces. He will be a really good one. Might have worked similarly for Kamenev if he chose to stay for a couple of years.

Nobody ever projected Kamenev to have the ceiling that was projected for Buchnevich, that's what is so insincere here. Over and over I see you starting with a conclusion and cherry picking "facts" to support it.

"Kamenev was a KHL regular by the time he left." There are a lot of players in the KHL doing very well who couldn't make it in the NHL. Dawes and Vey were fringe prospects here, they are stars there, and so many more. Kamenev hasn't regressed, he's just slotting in where a player of his talents does over here.

For many players the NHL is the pinnacle of hockey. This apparently includes a lot of Russian born players. Sorry. I love all hockey, and enjoy following the KHL too (to the extent it is possible from Canada), but I'm not going to play along with your delusion that the KHL is anywhere close to the calibre of the NHL. Maybe a couple of the absurdly stacked teams, but outside of that the idea is laughable.

I agree with the others though, it is a bad idea to engage your arguments on individual player threads because you will derail so many of the with your specious arguments. I'll leave you with the last word but if you don't explain why so many marginal NA players are successful in the KHL you clearly don't have a leg to stand on.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
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Why do almost all the best Russian forwards develop for multiple years in the KHL before they come over? Is it a coincidence?

Any of the current star Russian players would have crushed the CHL/AHL and became good players regardless. Just like Kucherov. Not all of them are going to pan out. Blaming the league they play in as a result of their failure instead of putting any accountability on the player is a joke.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
57,224
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New York
Any of the current star Russian players would have crushed the CHL/AHL and became good players regardless. Just like Kucherov. Not all of them are going to pan out. Blaming the league they play in as a result of their failure instead of putting any accountability on the player is a joke.

Would they? I think thats the main question here. Maybe Ovechkin or Malkin would have been fine, but we just don't know how Panarin or Kuznetsov or even Tarasenko would've done. There have been many guys who at the time were just as talented as them who developed in NA, and look what happened.

Kucherov went over at the same age as Kamenev. I never said Kamenev can't be a good player or that he's permanently infected from playing in NA too early, but I think Kamenev and Kucherov could've benefited from staying longer in the KHL. It doesn't matter how good Kucherov is now, it doesn't change the prior examples in front of him. Andrei Svechnikov is a great talent, doesn't mean he wouldn't have been better off staying in Russia until after he was drafted. Whether he even would've been any better is irrelevant.

And I find the argument that the KHL had a number of players who didn't pan out to be a weak argument. All leagues have players who don't pan out, but there is a disproportionate amount of Russian forwards who go to play in North America either before being drafted or just after being drafted who don't pan out or don't pan out as they were expected to.
 

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