GDT: Burning players from Calgary vs Choke Artists from Carolina

ONO94

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Jan 18, 2010
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Doesn't the screen shot below actually show the lack of body contact? Aho is standing up and Giordano's body is actually beyond aho's body at that point and the only point of contact there is below the waist.

It's tough to see for sure in the video, as many of these types of hits are. One of the guys in the main board thread grabbed the best still he could at the point of impact. While the head was hit, it wasn't a case of a guy just coming by and picking the head. He got a lot of Aho's body with that hit and it's hard for me to say he targeted his head.

guism43.png
 
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Sens1Canes2

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My biggest problem with this hit and most that result in head or knee shots is that they just don't need to happen. Giordano saw aho coming in and rather than just set up and take the puck, he looked to take the body. That's not a bad thing--but at that speed and angle his was going to blow up aho if aho kept his angle and if aho changes direction--giordano's only choice is to extend his body out to still make the hit or get beat. So even if the hit becomes dangerous, he still has to make it. So when aho predictably moves to avoid the hit---giordano has to stand up, swing his leg up for leverage and stick his shoulder out. Again and predictably--a good body shot becomes a bad hit based on the choice of the defender to go for the big hit instead of playing the puck. Which I thought the intent of the new head shot rules was to change that choice--but I guess not.

That decision will not be made for another generation. You can’t change a player’s instincts, not when they were taught from the day they were introduced to legal body checking that “taking the man” was good, “separating the player from the puck” was better, and “destroying the puck carrier legally” was ideal.

This movement started, what, about 6 or 7 years ago? You’ll start seeing much more “responsible” (I put that in quotes because i don’t really believe in it) players in about 10 years.
 

RodTheBawd

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While the Canes have been p***yes for a while, it's been more pervasive under Peters. I'll never let that Risto vs. Skinner shit go. For presenting himself as a somewhat oldschool tough guy, Peters certainly doesn't let that translate on the ice. There doesn't have to be a quant answer to everything. The Wilson on Ryan "goal reaction" is the exception, not the norm. Old man river shouldn't be the only one mixing it up after every whistle. Quite the coherent post here.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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Doesn't the screen shot below actually show the lack of body contact? Aho is standing up and Giordano's body is actually beyond aho's body at that point and the only point of contact there is below the waist.

Not to me. I watched in slow, slow mo and while Giordano's shoulder did connect with Aho's chin, it looks to me like he also hit him on Aho's left shoulder as well. His feet didn't leave the ground until after the hit although he did move his body upward as he was hitting. It's marginal for sure.

The knee on knee is really bad though. I can't say it was intentional but it's bad.
 
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Sens1Canes2

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While the Canes have been *****es for a while, it's been more pervasive under Peters. I'll never let that Risto vs. Skinner **** go. For presenting himself as a somewhat oldschool tough guy, Peters certainly doesn't let that translate on the ice. There doesn't have to be a quant answer to everything. The Wilson on Ryan "goal reaction" is the exception, not the norm. Old man river shouldn't be the only one mixing it up after every whistle. Quite the coherent post here.

But you’re right. Despite the incoherence.
 

Svechhammer

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It's still infuriating that, after watching Giordano headshot Aho, only one player came to his defense while everyone else stood around with their sticks up their ass. Then, after the game, instead of sticking up for his own player who was in the hospital, Peters goes on record to make an excuse for why Giordano can't be blamed for the hit.

This franchise has no spine, and last night proved it. Sometimes, even when you know it's wrong, you must stick up for your own.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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Was it reported that Aho was in the hospital? Or is that an assumption because they said he was being looked over / having his knee evaluated? Not disputing it, just didn't hear he was in the hospital.
 

bleedgreen

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There was no targeting of the head, Aho dragged the puck behind him while staring at it and skating sideways/backwards right in Gio. Gio is absolutely appropriate hitting him. New age/old school....doesn't matter. The second a dman is supposed to jump out of the way so Aho can complete the dangle is the day I'm done. Gio should not have to make any determination or think out whether or not he is supposed to play the body. Of course he's supposed to play the body - that's the NHL. There was nothing vicious about the hit. He kept his elbow tucked. At the angle Aho was coming at him it was going to be difficult for it not to be a tough hit.

That is ALL on Aho. This wasn't a guy stepping up to crush someone in neutral ice and caught a poor soul unaware with his head down. This is a dangerous attacking forward close to the net pulling off a drag with his head down and skating laterally right into Gio's space to score a goal and Gio's sole job is to stop him.

It was a really poor choice at that spot of the ice and I can't be a homer about it. I wasn't when Sutter got clobbered by Weight back in the day. It's a learning moment, and you can't take that away from the dman. It's been awesome watching Aho's confidence grow and to see him make amazing plays but he needed his wings clipped on that one.

Normally I'm one of the biggest critics of our wussiness over the last 5 years at least. I'm torn on this one. I hate it when people want to fight over legal hits and I feel likely everyone on the team knew this was a bad choice by Aho - but still you'd think more people would auto respond and on a team with more gumption someone would.


PS....the knee on knee is purely coincidental. Zero intent from Gio on that. He's completely focused on the primary hit, there was no adjusting the leg in case he missed.
 
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geehaad

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I'm curious what you guys think should have been done in addition to Williams engaging Giordano. McGinn attempted to, but Williams was the first Cane to get there, and McGinn had to let go of Giordano because he was the third man in. Are you guys expecting that someone on the Canes roster is going to go after some other Flame at some point later in the game?
 

Joe McGrath

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It's still infuriating that, after watching Giordano headshot Aho, only one player came to his defense while everyone else stood around with their sticks up their ass. Then, after the game, instead of sticking up for his own player who was in the hospital, Peters goes on record to make an excuse for why Giordano can't be blamed for the hit.

This franchise has no spine, and last night proved it. Sometimes, even when you know it's wrong, you must stick up for your own.

I still don’t get this. Williams was the closest guy to Gio. He’s a leader. He stepped up and challenged him. That’s kind of how it works. 4 guys can’t come down and jump the guy. Someone else said Jordan shouldn’t even be wearing a letter after that and he wasn’t even on the ice.
 

bleedgreen

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I'm curious what you guys think should have been done in addition to Williams engaging Giordano. McGinn attempted to, but Williams was the first Cane to get there, and McGinn had to let go of Giordano because he was the third man in. Are you guys expecting that someone on the Canes roster is going to go after some other Flame at some point later in the game?
Yeah that's kind of what I meant. You can often expect a general level of anger from the team who's player just got crushed with either more hits generally thrown or direct confrontation. I know Williams and Mcginn made the effort on the play.
 
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NotOpie

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Jun 12, 2006
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There was no targeting of the head, Aho dragged the puck behind him while staring at it and skating sideways/backwards right in Gio. Gio is absolutely appropriate hitting him. New age/old school....doesn't matter. The second a dman is supposed to jump out of the way so Aho can complete the dangle is the day I'm done. Gio should not have to make any determination or think out whether or not he is supposed to play the body. Of course he's supposed to play the body - that's the NHL. There was nothing vicious about the hit. He kept his elbow tucked. At the angle Aho was coming at him it was going to be difficult for it not to be a tough hit.

That is ALL on Aho. This wasn't a guy stepping up to crush someone in neutral ice and caught a poor soul unaware with his head down. This is a dangerous attacking forward close to the net pulling off a drag with his head down and skating laterally right into Gio's space to score a goal and Gio's sole job is to stop him.

Bleed, normally I'm in agreement with the majority of your takes. I'm also a big proponent of the physicality of the game.

However, in this case, I disagree with your characterization of Giordano's actions.

Yes, Aho has to keep his head up there and/or make a different move. Having his head down, even after glancing and seeing Giordano coming his way (you can see it in the video), is a huge mental mistake. But Giordano clearly lunges, even launches himself into the hit. The "leaving his feet" after the hit that BBA noted as something often happening with player to player collisions only happens because of this action by Giordano. He could have just as easily remained in his slightly crouched position and his shoulder hits Aho's chest/shoulder. His knee is likely at a lower profile as well, probably grazing Aho's leg below the knee. Who knows what the results of that type of collision would have been, but his distinct actions led to the injury in my mind.

I can't read Giordano's mind, but that hit looked less like it was designed to send the message, "...hey kid, stay out of my kitchen" and was more about, "...I'm gonna f*** you up cause I can". If you don't think Giordano has that in him, recall his knee on knee fiasco with Cam Fowler last spring. I believe there was another questionable hit on Kadri as well.

As I said, I don't want to see big hits out of the game, but this hit appeared designed to injure, designed to take a player out of the game. That's the part that I take umbrage with.
 

ONO94

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I think the hit was understandable I just think it is dangerous. Once he gave up playing the puck--which he easily could have done--he had to hit aho. Even if it meant putting himself or aho in a bad spot--he was going to hit aho. While I think the canes are duckling down soft--I would still rather see the slavin style of simply taking the puck away from a player rather than looking for an uncontrolled hit.

And on a different note--why was Williams given a 10 minute misconduct? It seems strange for an understandable fight.
 

Unsustainable

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I like the big hits when the sticks go flying and both players regret the hit.

But hitting someone “cause they have their down” is a f***ing cop out to hitting a defenseless player, and not making a play against stripping the puck, but intent to send a message of “you can’t skate like that”.
 

AD Skinner

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I think what frustrated me was that the team didn't step up their physical play after that whole debacle. They were more physical against the caps in Washington, or the panthers at pnc a few weeks ago. I don't know what flips the switch but this event sure didn't seem to do it, and that doesn't really make sense to me. I understand a smaller player like teravainen or a less experienced player like fleury getting intimidated. But if your big boys and/or foot soldiers (Staal, Faulk, Nordstrom, dahlbeck are who jumps to my mind) aren't going to get engaged after that... why bother?
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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I think the hit was understandable I just think it is dangerous. Once he gave up playing the puck--which he easily could have done--he had to hit aho. Even if it meant putting himself or aho in a bad spot--he was going to hit aho. While I think the canes are duckling down soft--I would still rather see the slavin style of simply taking the puck away from a player rather than looking for an uncontrolled hit.

And on a different note--why was Williams given a 10 minute misconduct? It seems strange for an understandable fight.

But he shouldn't be trying to play the puck there, he should be playing the body. How many times have we seen one of our own defensemen get burned and complain about them not playing the body. If he plays the puck and misses, then Aho has an open path to the goal. His job was to play the body and if the puck gets through, the goalie, or Hamilton who was trailing the play would be there to corral it.

RE: your question on Williams, the rule states: "A player who is deemed to be the instigator of an altercation shall be assessed an instigating minor penalty, a major penalty for fighting and a ten-minute misconduct."
 
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Svechhammer

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I'm curious what you guys think should have been done in addition to Williams engaging Giordano. McGinn attempted to, but Williams was the first Cane to get there, and McGinn had to let go of Giordano because he was the third man in. Are you guys expecting that someone on the Canes roster is going to go after some other Flame at some point later in the game?
What I would have liked to see happen is everyone on the ice square off with someone on the opposing team. When an injustice like this is done to one of our guys, take matters into our own hands and start throwing punches. Send the message we aren't a team to be f***ed with anymore.
 

bleedgreen

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If Gio made sure he connected solidly because of a “don’t try to take that to the hole when I’m around” attitude, I’m still ok with it.

That was Aho trying to put him on a highlight reel. There’s a toll to pay for that. I would expect every single one of our Dmen to do the same. The slot shouldnt be an area forwards feel cozy dangling around without some serious stones.

I don’t see how Aho could viewed as defenseless. He had the puck. He was taking it to the net dragging it behind him, clearly trying to score a goal. That was intentionally putting himself in that spot. Have to be ready for anything if you make that choice.
 

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