Burlington Group Approached NHL for possible 2nd GTA/S.O. Franchise

[Jeffrey93]

I didn’t compare it to anything. You made the assertion that it would rival anything in the league. Even though you admit you haven’t even seen the study.

Back in the days of yore when the hot topic was Jim Balsillie moving the Coyotes there there was an understanding that THAT arena could never really be upgraded to even meet the league’s standard (the roof would have had to be blown off at minimum) and we’re talking nearly ten years ago. That standard has changed since Little Caesar, T-Mobile and Rogers Place opened.

You can throw hundreds of millions of dollars into an outhouse and it can still end up an outhouse to some. Just with a lot of gold plated seats.

Key Arena bud......the next NHL team....will be playing out of an arena opened in 1962.

Balsillie forced people to realize the potential of the building. The study done LAST YEAR by PRIVATE INTERESTS......determined $252M could expand the venue to a state-of-the-art NHL venue....and realize the original design's intentions. The venue was built to be renovated. It was built into the design. If you've ever been there and taken a look at it...you'd realize this. There is a lot of space, currently unused space.

But, you're right. I haven't seen the study. I just know it was a $250,000+ study......the city only pumped in $50k. And it decided to make it a modern NHL venue it would take $252M. Now....Carmen's Group has partnered with OVG in a bid to manage the venue......

But yeah.....I haven't found the complete study online. So you're probably right.....even though you're wrong and Balsillie had plans for renovations (raising the roof was part of it....because that was designed into the initial build...) that ...his plan 10 years ago was for $150M. Now we're looking at a $68M half-reno for the Bulldogs or a $252M reno for what Balsillie planned and then some.

I do find it cute that you can name 3 rinks, ....of which only Little Caesars is significantly different........and determine the standards of a modern NHL venue has changed.

Little Caesars Arena is the optimal option....if you have piles of abandoned properties to create your own district out of. Vegas and Edmonton didn't do anything really remarkable.

Let's say they did though....that's 3 rinks out of 32.....and you're suggesting if you don't surpass those 3.....you're not a high end venue. Because you aren't in the top 9% means you aren't a high end venue?!?!

Your "outhouse" comment just tells me you've never been in FOC/Copps. You don't know the design/footprint of the building. I'm guessing you've seen some pictures. Good for you. A quarter of a million dollar study initiated by private entities determined you're wrong, but you probably know better. Right?

 

[Jets4Life]

Key Arena bud......the next NHL team....will be playing out of an arena opened in 1962.

Balsillie forced people to realize the potential of the building. The study done LAST YEAR by PRIVATE INTERESTS......determined $252M could expand the venue to a state-of-the-art NHL venue....and realize the original design's intentions. The venue was built to be renovated. It was built into the design. If you've ever been there and taken a look at it...you'd realize this. There is a lot of space, currently unused space.

But, you're right. I haven't seen the study. I just know it was a $250,000+ study......the city only pumped in $50k. And it decided to make it a modern NHL venue it would take $252M. Now....Carmen's Group has partnered with OVG in a bid to manage the venue......

But yeah.....I haven't found the complete study online. So you're probably right.....even though you're wrong and Balsillie had plans for renovations (raising the roof was part of it....because that was designed into the initial build...) that ...his plan 10 years ago was for $150M. Now we're looking at a $68M half-reno for the Bulldogs or a $252M reno for what Balsillie planned and then some.

I do find it cute that you can name 3 rinks, ....of which only Little Caesars is significantly different........and determine the standards of a modern NHL venue has changed.

Little Caesars Arena is the optimal option....if you have piles of abandoned properties to create your own district out of. Vegas and Edmonton didn't do anything really remarkable.

Let's say they did though....that's 3 rinks out of 32.....and you're suggesting if you don't surpass those 3.....you're not a high end venue. Because you aren't in the top 9% means you aren't a high end venue?!?!

Your "outhouse" comment just tells me you've never been in FOC/Copps. You don't know the design/footprint of the building. I'm guessing you've seen some pictures. Good for you. A quarter of a million dollar study initiated by private entities determined you're wrong, but you probably know better. Right?

Never going to happen. You ahve been saying this over and over for 15 years. The NHL would never allow a team in Hamilton due to it's close proximity to Buffalo (unless Buffalo relocates to Hamilton), and of course, the numerous potential ownership groups who want to (and have the funds) to build an arena in the suburbs of Toronto. Face it, the best chance Hamilton had of getting a team was 1990, but instead of lying like Ottawa, Tim Hortons owner Ron Joyce, asked to pay the expansion fee in installments, which the NHL frowned upon.

So in conclusion, Hamilton will never get a team. You have Jim Balsillie to thank for that. However, it is possible there will be a second team in the Toronto area (GTA not GTHA).

 

[Jeffrey93]

Never going to happen. You ahve been saying this over and over for 15 years. The NHL would never allow a team in Hamilton due to it's close proximity to Buffalo (unless Buffalo relocates to Hamilton), and of course, the numerous potential ownership groups who want to (and have the funds) to build an arena in the suburbs of Toronto. Face it, the best chance Hamilton had of getting a team was 1990, but instead of lying like Ottawa, Tim Hortons owner Ron Joyce, asked to pay the expansion fee in installments, which the NHL frowned upon.

So in conclusion, Hamilton will never get a team. However, it is possible there will be a second team in the Toronto area.

You're telling me I'm wrong for something I never claimed.

I agree with what you just said....the only part I don't agree with is that the best chance has gone by. I think it's still coming up.

Hugely sought after market.....MLSE doesn't want a new venue......Privately funded renovation study completed.....OVG involved in management bid for Hamilton's Core Venues.......

Sure, we can talk about the previous times the NHL jerked around Hamilton....promised them a franchise...didn't come through....gave requirements for expansions bids....then denied the ONLY market that met ALL the criteria. But, that's in the past.

Currently.....there is private interest in finding out what it would take to renovate the arena. OVG is now involved in a bid to manage the Core Venues......interest in managing and renovating the venue has increased in the past 3 years.

If I was setting the "doomsday clock" of when Hamilton would get an NHL team.....I'd have it as close now as it was during the Coyotes bankruptcy hearings when Judge Redfield Baum could have simply awarded the franchise to Balsillie and relocated it to Hamilton. I'd say they're just as close now.....but the decision is a longer play than a Judge's whim.

 

[Jets4Life]

If I was setting the "doomsday clock" of when Hamilton would get an NHL team.....I'd have it as close now as it was during the Coyotes bankruptcy hearings when Judge Redfield Baum could have simply awarded the franchise to Balsillie and relocated it to Hamilton. I'd say they're just as close now.....but the decision is a longer play than a Judge's whim.

I hate to break this to you, but the Arizona franchise was never going to relocate to Hamilton, unless someone without the last name "BALSILLIE" ponied up the cash. One of the reasons the NHL has spent millions propping up the franchise is Balsillie had rubbed Bettman, and many of the owners the wrong way, and moving Arizona would be a last resort, as it has a lot to do with the egos of the current owners. If Jim Balsillie had Mark Chipman's temperament and business sense, Hamilton would have had an NHL team in 2007.

It's a shame Hamilton lost the 1990 bid to Ottawa, as Bruce Firestone was a crook, and Hamilton had the superior bid. However, the ship has sailed. Enjoy the AHL/OHL for the foreseeable future.

 

[Melrose Munch]

A study was just done on renovating it.....$250M to make it a higher end NHL venue. You're not going to get something built in Burlington for that. You're not going to have nearly as many people opposed to it either....

“higher end NHL venue” is a subjective statement at minimum without some documentation to go along with it.

The thing is.....fans will still watch the Leafs....and they'll now ALSO watch another Ontario team. I might watch the Leafs a little bit less, but I'll end up watching more hockey. There are always opportunities to get current viewers to watch more.

Your logic is so absurd though. I mean, I get it...and in theory it makes sense. But....following your logic....there is no better place for a business to setup than where they have zero current customers. How many businesses do that?
Yes, you always hope to create new customers.....but if this logic of relying almost entirely on new customers was the most beneficial....well the NHL would be in South America, Starbucks would be opening up locations in Nunavut and Best Buy would be popping up in Amish communities.

The NHL isn't mining as much money as they could be out of the Golden Horseshoe.

Yup.

I've yet to see the study....since it was a $250,000 study and the City only pumped in $50,000, while the rest was private interests....I'm not sure if it is even a public document.

BBB Architects said they were looking at what it would take to make it a 'state-of-the-art facility'.

These are the same architects that worked on Maple Leaf Gardens, Ricoh Coliseum, Madison Square Garden, LA Forum, Rexall Place, etc.

And now vying to manage Hamilton's 'Core Venues' is the Carmen Group who partnered with OVG, they are the management group behind the Key Arena renovations in Seattle.

So, if you want to believe the $252M price tag the study came to was for a venue that rivals NVMC or the Saddledome or something....go ahead. It's a current study with the purpose of making it state-of-the-art. Of course....that price tag will grow as time goes on.....but it was suggested renovation would save about $140M over building new.

I didn’t compare it to anything. You made the assertion that it would rival anything in the league. Even though you admit you haven’t even seen the study.

Back in the days of yore when the hot topic was Jim Balsillie moving the Coyotes there there was an understanding that THAT arena could never really be upgraded to even meet the league’s standard (the roof would have had to be blown off at minimum) and we’re talking nearly ten years ago. That standard has changed since Little Caesar, T-Mobile and Rogers Place opened.

You can throw hundreds of millions of dollars into an outhouse and it can still end up an outhouse to some. Just with a lot of gold plated seats.

Anything can happen.

Seattle makes 32.

Suddenly a person shows up and offers the same $500M to get a team in Milwaukee, Kansas City, Houston, Portland, San Diego, or wherever else a multi-billionaire wants to put a team.

If the league feels like making another billion in expansion fees....they'll go to 34 (talent pool could handle about 48 temas). They'll deal with the person wanting a team in whichever of those locations.....then suddenly take whatever interest there is in the GTHA much more seriously. Because now they'll need it for balance....it will benefit them greatly....and they can justify forcing it on Toronto/Buffalo.

The NHL might not realize a huge value in TV $ from another team in the GTHA.....but a team in Houston might get them a bigger US deal. The Canadian deal would increase as well.....the new GTHA team isn't going to not have local and/or national broadcasts. It'd be silly to think nobody would pony up more dough to buy the rights to a new GTHA team.

Key Arena bud......the next NHL team....will be playing out of an arena opened in 1962.

Balsillie forced people to realize the potential of the building. The study done LAST YEAR by PRIVATE INTERESTS......determined $252M could expand the venue to a state-of-the-art NHL venue....and realize the original design's intentions. The venue was built to be renovated. It was built into the design. If you've ever been there and taken a look at it...you'd realize this. There is a lot of space, currently unused space.

But, you're right. I haven't seen the study. I just know it was a $250,000+ study......the city only pumped in $50k. And it decided to make it a modern NHL venue it would take $252M. Now....Carmen's Group has partnered with OVG in a bid to manage the venue......

But yeah.....I haven't found the complete study online. So you're probably right.....even though you're wrong and Balsillie had plans for renovations (raising the roof was part of it....because that was designed into the initial build...) that ...his plan 10 years ago was for $150M. Now we're looking at a $68M half-reno for the Bulldogs or a $252M reno for what Balsillie planned and then some.

I do find it cute that you can name 3 rinks, ....of which only Little Caesars is significantly different........and determine the standards of a modern NHL venue has changed.

Little Caesars Arena is the optimal option....if you have piles of abandoned properties to create your own district out of. Vegas and Edmonton didn't do anything really remarkable.

Let's say they did though....that's 3 rinks out of 32.....and you're suggesting if you don't surpass those 3.....you're not a high end venue. Because you aren't in the top 9% means you aren't a high end venue?!?!

Your "outhouse" comment just tells me you've never been in FOC/Copps. You don't know the design/footprint of the building. I'm guessing you've seen some pictures. Good for you. A quarter of a million dollar study initiated by private entities determined you're wrong, but you probably know better. Right?

Bottom line is Hamilton could have applied and didnt. The money was too much. Its time to move on.

 

[powerstuck]

Key Arena bud......the next NHL team....will be playing out of an arena opened in 1962.

Well that's only true because City of Seattle are really a stubborn bunch. If they didn't block the Hansen proposition (I know some people here HATE him) Seattle would probably have a team today and who knows, maybe their team would be playing as we speak in WCF against Vegas.

 

[gstommylee]

Well that's only true because City of Seattle are really a stubborn bunch. If they didn't block the Hansen proposition (I know some people here HATE him) Seattle would probably have a team today and who knows, maybe their team would be playing as we speak in WCF against Vegas.

More like stubbornness by hansen. if he actually had a really soild enough plan with a billion investor and a NHL group as well as a post sodo arena Key arena plan, city of seattle would never said no.

 

[gstommylee]

Anything can happen.

Seattle makes 32.

Suddenly a person shows up and offers the same $500M to get a team in Milwaukee, Kansas City, Houston, Portland, San Diego, or wherever else a multi-billionaire wants to put a team.

You do realize out of the 16 original applications for the 2015 expansion process only 2 groups turn in bids. Vegas and Quebec. Vegas only got approved. Not even seattle turned in a bid that year and they had 3 groups. Economics for a seattle bid didn't make sense at that time to do a billion dollar investment on a NHL team only.


It wasn't until OVG showed up with David Bonderman where we had the $$$ means to turn in a bid by which then the price went from 500m to 650m.

Key Arena bud......the next NHL team....will be playing out of an arena opened in 1962.

Actually playing in an arena with a massive internal gut job that's 15 feet deeper with the original roof line that was constructed in the 60's.

 

[powerstuck]

More like stubbornness by hansen. if he actually had a really soild enough plan with a billion investor and a NHL group as well as a post sodo arena Key arena plan, city of seattle would never said no.

It's funny you say Hansen's stubbornness...and then you say this :

It wasn't until OVG showed up with David Bonderman where we had the $$$ means to turn in a bid by which then the price went from 500m to 650m.

Maybe Hansen wasn't ready to look for investors yet. All we know is he worked hard on street vacation and his projet (what ever it turns out to be) needs that before any further move forward.

 

[gstommylee]

It's funny you say Hansen's stubbornness...and then you say this :



Maybe Hansen wasn't ready to look for investors yet. All we know is he worked hard on street vacation and his projet (what ever it turns out to be) needs that before any further move forward.

Which is part of hansen's stubbornness about not wanting to help pay for the arena for a NHL team. We had no committed investor willing to back a arena + cost of the team on a NHL only arena. Hansen was only going to put his money for a NBA team only to the arena. It was going to have to be someone else to do it for the hockey.

Ray B was only going to invest a 100m into tukwila arena. Victor Coleman wanted to be involved but not want to put serious $$$ to it etc.

One of the issues as to why Seattle said no was hansen never found a replacement for steve balmer which was a mistake. He should have found a replacement immediately. There was a lot of doubt from SCC that hansen could actually get it done.

 

[TheLegend]

Key Arena bud......the next NHL team....will be playing out of an arena opened in 1962.

Balsillie forced people to realize the potential of the building. The study done LAST YEAR by PRIVATE INTERESTS......determined $252M could expand the venue to a state-of-the-art NHL venue....and realize the original design's intentions. The venue was built to be renovated. It was built into the design. If you've ever been there and taken a look at it...you'd realize this. There is a lot of space, currently unused space.

But, you're right. I haven't seen the study. I just know it was a $250,000+ study......the city only pumped in $50k. And it decided to make it a modern NHL venue it would take $252M. Now....Carmen's Group has partnered with OVG in a bid to manage the venue......

But yeah.....I haven't found the complete study online. So you're probably right.....even though you're wrong and Balsillie had plans for renovations (raising the roof was part of it....because that was designed into the initial build...) that ...his plan 10 years ago was for $150M. Now we're looking at a $68M half-reno for the Bulldogs or a $252M reno for what Balsillie planned and then some.

I do find it cute that you can name 3 rinks, ....of which only Little Caesars is significantly different........and determine the standards of a modern NHL venue has changed.

Little Caesars Arena is the optimal option....if you have piles of abandoned properties to create your own district out of. Vegas and Edmonton didn't do anything really remarkable.

Let's say they did though....that's 3 rinks out of 32.....and you're suggesting if you don't surpass those 3.....you're not a high end venue. Because you aren't in the top 9% means you aren't a high end venue?!?!

Your "outhouse" comment just tells me you've never been in FOC/Copps. You don't know the design/footprint of the building. I'm guessing you've seen some pictures. Good for you. A quarter of a million dollar study initiated by private entities determined you're wrong, but you probably know better. Right?

I find it cute you can’t admit something when it’s pointed out to you.

The only thing left from 1962 after OVG is done with Key Arena is the roof. Because it’s a declared landmark and they can’t change that. It’s essentially a brand new arena.

That’s why it falls under the new standard. You honestly believe FOC is going to match that at half the price?? Sure.

 

[Bookie21]

I find it cute you can’t admit something when it’s pointed out to you.

The only thing left from 1962 after OVG is done with Key Arena is the roof. Because it’s a declared landmark and they can’t change that. It’s essentially a brand new arena.

That’s why it falls under the new standard. You honestly believe FOC is going to match that at half the price?? Sure.

Bringing FOC up to NHL specs will be a half a billion minimum. Why try to cheap out and do it for $300 million? You'd end up having to build a new arena in 10 years if you went the cheap route. Do it right, gut the thing down to the bones and dump $500 mil into it

 

[gstommylee]

Bringing FOC up to NHL specs will be a half a billion minimum. Why try to cheap out and do it for $300 million? You'd end up having to build a new arena in 10 years if you went the cheap route. Do it right, gut the thing down to the bones and dump $500 mil into it

its costing OVG 600m to get key arena up to NHL/NBA spec. It wouldn't be so much if the roofline wasn't historic.

 

[KevFu]

I agree, adding Seattle is good for the League but them having a impact on the next US tv contract is highly doubtful.

Yeah, but that's because it's largely impossible to assess what part of the $ increase is due to Seattle, what's due to simple inflation, whats' due to networks not having as much money due to cord-cutters, what's due to sports being more immune to DVR than anything else, etc.

You've got thousands of factors at play, and of course, let's just be honest... people on this site against expansion to a particular market (or any market but their preferred market) aren't going to have their minds without like DNA-level evidence.

 

[gstommylee]

Yeah, but that's because it's largely impossible to assess what part of the $ increase is due to Seattle, what's due to simple inflation, whats' due to networks not having as much money due to cord-cutters, what's due to sports being more immune to DVR than anything else, etc.

You've got thousands of factors at play, and of course, let's just be honest... people on this site against expansion to a particular market (or any market but their preferred market) aren't going to have their minds without like DNA-level evidence.

Part of the reason why its more costly is you can't rebuild up due to the roof. It actually requires you to dig further down by 15ft.

It would have cost way less than 600m if it was in the sodo site.

 

[mouser]

Key Arena bud......the next NHL team....will be playing out of an arena opened in 1962.

Balsillie forced people to realize the potential of the building. The study done LAST YEAR by PRIVATE INTERESTS......determined $252M could expand the venue to a state-of-the-art NHL venue....and realize the original design's intentions. The venue was built to be renovated. It was built into the design. If you've ever been there and taken a look at it...you'd realize this. There is a lot of space, currently unused space.

But, you're right. I haven't seen the study. I just know it was a $250,000+ study......the city only pumped in $50k. And it decided to make it a modern NHL venue it would take $252M. Now....Carmen's Group has partnered with OVG in a bid to manage the venue......

Making Hamilton's FirstOntario Centre 'NHL-ready' would cost $250M | CBC News

A new study pegs the cost of renovating the FirstOntario Centre to an "NHL-ready" point at $252 million, but city staff say there are other much more urgent budget issues to deal with instead.
The renovation one of two options outlined in a new study of the city's signature hockey and events venue, scheduled to be presented to city councillors next Wednesday.

There's gulf between "state of the art" and "nhl ready".

If an NHL team moved into FirstOntarioCenter tomorrow it would be in the 3rd oldest arena in the NHL. One of the two older arenas, MSG, went through a $1B total rebuild. That decision influenced by tax implications of building a brand new arenas on another site. The next oldest arena, the Saddledome in Calgary is regularly in the news with the owners squabbling to get a new arena built.

Seattle renovation projections are for $600m USD, and that's before the inevitable inflation and cost overruns we see in big arena projects like this. Edmonton spent $480m CAD for a state of the art new arena.

The history of arenas has taught us that having an existing arena footprint to renovate is usually more of a burden then a boon when compared to building a completely new arena.

 

[Jeffrey93]

I find it cute you can’t admit something when it’s pointed out to you.

The only thing left from 1962 after OVG is done with Key Arena is the roof. Because it’s a declared landmark and they can’t change that. It’s essentially a brand new arena.

That’s why it falls under the new standard. You honestly believe FOC is going to match that at half the price?? Sure.

I'm saying the date the thing was built doesn't matter. What you have to work with matters.

If you compared the cost of a new build, new land, new infrastructure, etc. to a major renovation.....the savings would far outweigh any limitations. Key Arena is also much more restricted than FOC would be for a renovation. Like you said, they're basically rebuilding the arena within itself. FOC would be expanded...it would grow to fill it's current footprint.

Which is why it's so much cheaper. Take the $252M number the study arrived at....add 50%, you're still in a better situation than building new. You still have an ideal location, you don't need to acquire land, clean it up, etc., etc.

The Flames looked into a major renovation of the Saddledome....the cost was too high compared to the improvements/gains. That's because of the design of the building. FOC was built with expansion designed into it. It's actually a good thing renovations weren't done previously.

Balsillie looked into it...BBB Architects looked into it.....they both determined it can be done for much cheaper than building new. The better you want it, obviously the more it will cost. But if $250M gets you a good quality NHL venue.....what would $350M get you? $400M? Or, spend $250M and you've now got an adequate arena for 10-15 years at which time you move to a new one.

It's still piles cheaper than building new....and the location is great.

 

[Bookie21]

The NHL would laugh at them if they tried to put lipstick on a pig and cheaped out on a $250 million renovation.

 

[gstommylee]

I'm saying the date the thing was built doesn't matter. What you have to work with matters.

If you compared the cost of a new build, new land, new infrastructure, etc. to a major renovation.....the savings would far outweigh any limitations. Key Arena is also much more restricted than FOC would be for a renovation. Like you said, they're basically rebuilding the arena within itself. FOC would be expanded...it would grow to fill it's current footprint.

Which is why it's so much cheaper. Take the $252M number the study arrived at....add 50%, you're still in a better situation than building new. You still have an ideal location, you don't need to acquire land, clean it up, etc., etc.

The Flames looked into a major renovation of the Saddledome....the cost was too high compared to the improvements/gains. That's because of the design of the building. FOC was built with expansion designed into it. It's actually a good thing renovations weren't done previously.

Balsillie looked into it...BBB Architects looked into it.....they both determined it can be done for much cheaper than building new. The better you want it, obviously the more it will cost. But if $250M gets you a good quality NHL venue.....what would $350M get you? $400M? Or, spend $250M and you've now got an adequate arena for 10-15 years at which time you move to a new one.

It's still piles cheaper than building new....and the location is great.

Its still going to look very cheap. 250m is cheap.

 

[Chileiceman]

Here is a link to the Website of the Company in Question. Anyone know anything about them


Paletta International Corporation

AllI know is that a couple months ago one of their buildings, not sure what it was used for, burned down. I drive by it on the 403 all the time.

 

[gstommylee]

The NHL would laugh at them if they tried to put lipstick on a pig and cheaped out on a $250 million renovation.

Seattle did a study on what to do about key arena as if sodo arena was going to happen and was not going to happen. And that silly study came up with a 285m renovation that would make Key arena NHL ready and the local media spinned saying it was possible.

TIm Leiweke laughed at that figure saying it was going to cost a lot more than that.

 

[Jeffrey93]

Actually playing in an arena with a massive internal gut job that's 15 feet deeper with the original roof line that was constructed in the 60's.

That's my point. The date of construction doesn't really matter.....

 

[Jeffrey93]

The NHL would laugh at them if they tried to put lipstick on a pig and cheaped out on a $250 million renovation.

You really think the NHL cares? They want their payment for buying a franchise or their expansion fee.

Look at some of the places teams have played in before eventually building a new venue.

And I'm not sure the NHL could laugh at them when a $250M renovation, that lipstick on a pig as you say, would make it better or as good as a good chunk of the league.

Buffalo, Raleigh, Calgary, San Jose, Brooklyn and Winnipeg would be weaker venues than a cheap renovation of FOC.

That's 20% of the venues it would surpass. It would be similar to venues like Vancouver, Boston, Philadelphia, Ottawa and Miami.....behind in some aspects but ahead in others.

That's another 16%. There are others...but I'd rather not get into arguments about how a renovated FOC could rival venues based on ownership, management, location, etc.

At the end of the day....the low-end reno of FOC wouldn't be laughed at by anyone. Now say that $250M renovation was a $400M renovation.....it'd be a top venue in the league.

I gave you more of a response than you deserve....you clearly don't really know the size of this venue if you're calling it a pig. I mean...it's been neglected...but that is like viewing a home and scoffing at it because of the paint colours.

 

[Jeffrey93]

Its still going to look very cheap. 250m is cheap.

I think a $250M renovation of that facility would surprise you. It's not THAT bad as is....it's lacking amenities and some upgrades that have been avoided over the years.

Some upgrades that people view as MAJOR are designed into the initial build and would be cheaper than expected.

I hope these private interests that have paid for the study and those that are now seeking to manage it....do actually go through with the renovations. Just so I can do a massive 'I told you so' on message boards like this. Lots of people with lots of money and lots of expertise have looked into it....they have determined it's quite doable. They know the existing structure.....

 

[gstommylee]

You really think the NHL cares? They want their payment for buying a franchise or their expansion fee.

Look at some of the places teams have played in before eventually building a new venue.

And I'm not sure the NHL could laugh at them when a $250M renovation, that lipstick on a pig as you say, would make it better or as good as a good chunk of the league.

Buffalo, Raleigh, Calgary, San Jose, Brooklyn and Winnipeg would be weaker venues than a cheap renovation of FOC.

That's 20% of the venues it would surpass. It would be similar to venues like Vancouver, Boston, Philadelphia, Ottawa and Miami.....behind in some aspects but ahead in others.

That's another 16%. There are others...but I'd rather not get into arguments about how a renovated FOC could rival venues based on ownership, management, location, etc.

At the end of the day....the low-end reno of FOC wouldn't be laughed at by anyone. Now say that $250M renovation was a $400M renovation.....it'd be a top venue in the league.

I gave you more of a response than you deserve....you clearly don't really know the size of this venue if you're calling it a pig. I mean...it's been neglected...but that is like viewing a home and scoffing at it because of the paint colours.

Yes the NHL cares. If OVG offered only 285m to fix up key arena do you think we would gotten any serious discussion about putting a team in Seattle. No.

Seriously they gotten a 500m arena oug of MGM for vegas 600 redo (minus roof) of key arena for Seattle and suddenly a 250m investment in an arena is okay?