Bryan Burke: 'I would not draft Kessel first overall'

[boredmale]

You have to remember this is the guy that picked Bobby Ryan 2nd.

Yeah i was just about to say he screwed up not taking the best defenseman last year so he would make up taking the best defenseman this year.

 

[Hockeycanada*]

Back on topic:

I really question why anyone would choose Toews over Kessel, after seeing both play at the college level this whole season so far.

So you think that the two players should be judged again lesser competition in college rather than the highest competition like in this tournament?

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Despite what a few posters may say, this is more than a 2 horse all-American race. Bob and Brian Burke have both said Toews could go number 1, and everybody knows these two gentlemen have more connections and insight than the average HF poster. Watching the Sweden-Finland game, I would also say Backstrom is among this top level group. Any of 3 or 4 players could go #1 depending on what team is drafting and if the are drafting for a specific area.

I'd honestly like to ask you how many times YOU personally have watched Toews play this year OUTSIDE of the WJCs? How many college games do you watch on TV or have friends tape for you or ANYTHING?

I really don't care what Bob and Brian say when I have formed my own opinion after watching both a decent amount of times. You should make your own opinion if you can. That's why I really don't comment on many junior players since I hardly ever get to see any games with my own eyes unless I get tickets when I visit Canada every so often. And that's rare as hell.

 

[Old Hickory]

You are bolstering your argument about Burke by citing his teams record this year , when he got to Anaheim like 6 weeks before the season began (or something like that).
Buddy, ya better get a new game plan because the one ya got is pathetic

Tell me how he made Vancouver a better team?

Be sure to tell me how he solved their goaltending woes and built their farm system.

Be sure to list his stellar drafting record in Vancouver and also list how he took Hartford over the top.

He did none of these. His pattern of failure is there.

 

[Hockeycanada*]

I'd honestly like to ask you how many times YOU personally have watched Toews play this year OUTSIDE of the WJCs? How many college games do you watch on TV or have friends tape for you or ANYTHING?

I really don't care what Bob and Brian say when I have formed my own opinion after watching both a decent amount of times. You should make your own opinion if you can. That's why I really don't comment on many junior players since I hardly ever get to see any games with my own eyes unless I get tickets when I visit Canada every so often. And that's rare as hell.

Read my post just above yours.

 

[McDonald19]

Yeah i was just about to say he screwed up not taking the best defenseman last year so he would make up taking the best defenseman this year.

again for the 10,000 time Burke had just been hired by the Ducks and allowed the Ducks scouts to make the pick. All Burke did was interview Ryan and walk up on stage and call his name. He did not personally chose Ryan over Johnson.

Also Burke does not draft by position. If he feels Toews is a better player than Johnson he will draft Toews without worrying about the Ducks needing a D-man.

 

[Old Hickory]

I did not call you any names. I suggested that what you were doing was being a troll by not sticking to the subject of the thread.

No he didn't. Yeah he signed Niedermayer when he didnt have the cap space. But it wasn't his fault that the Ducks were overpaying veterans like Fedorov and Rucchin. He traded a no longer effective Fedorov and Rucchin and got cap space and has his team in position to take a run at the playoffs with cap room to add the players he wants at the deadline. I say he has done a good job.

And I listed his results. The Ducks are in tenth place, I'd say he hasn't done a good job.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

So you think that the two players should be judged again lesser competition in college rather than the highest competition like in this tournament?

Why would youw ant to base your opinion off of a few tournament games? Kessel has outscored Toews so far (and both have played Norway, so that argument is not valid at all). He's 2nd in points and both have played the same teams pretty much.

Yes, Toews might play slightly better defense, but if you watch him at the college level you will see it isn't this world beating defense that some people claim him to have. He's a solid all around player, but it's not like he's a two-way force like Peca or Forsberg. Not even close to that.

I mean, maybe you want to base your entire opinion on a player on tournament player, but not me.

 

[McDonald19]

And I listed his results. The Ducks are in tenth place, I'd say he hasn't done a good job.

and I say it's not fair to expect any GM to come in and take over an average team and turn them into a playoff team right away. If anything he has overachieved by getting them into playoff contention with half a season left and salary cap room to work with.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Read my post just above yours.

Replied to it.

To address another point, they are playing against 20+ year old players in the NCAA (some as old as 24/25). So really, the level of competition is actually HIGHER in the NCAA as compared to an Under 20 tournament. The strength of the game is vastly increased as the players get older. And they are also playing against some former U20 players themselves. So that point is definately very arguable.

 

[nomorekids]

I suggest all of you stop slinging dirt at each other and keep it on topic. If I see the word "troll" one more time, or any variant of it, you're getting slapped with 7 points.

 

[Vic Rattlehead*]

Kingsjohn, why are you judging a General Manager based on one half of a season? Shouldn't you wait until the season if over?

 

[Old Hickory]

and I say it's not fair to expect any GM to come in and take over an average team and turn them into a playoff team right away. If anything he has overachieved by getting them into playoff contention with half a season left and salary cap room to work with.

You see things your way, I see them them my way.

If the Ducks finish as a top 6 team in the West. I will gladly eat crow. I personally don't see that happening and I personally think Burke has made the Ducks a worse team this year. As I am sure you know, this is a team 2 seasons removed from the SCF. Most of the components are still there. He made the decision on Babcock and it's Detriot's gain.

 

[Misos Milakos*]

You're talking like Toews is like Mike Peca or something here.

He's not. He has a decent defensive game but he isn't some two-way specialist like you are making him out to be...

Jeeze, Kessel was overrated last year but there is some serious Toews love fest this year. I think Toews is a great #2/3/4 pick but he is no #1.

Toews has showed a well rounded game that is rare to see in players his age, especially prospects as high profile/as highly touted as he is. Generally the more defensive forwards aren't regarded nearly as highly as Toews. Toews all around game is why he is regarded as highly as he is. Had he not been a two way player he wouldn't see near the amount of ice time in which he does on team Canada, especially on Sutter's teams. You also dont need to be quite the Mike Peca on the defensive end to be better than Phil Kessel defensively, but Toews doesn't need to be Mike Peca at this stage of his game as that would be unreasonable to expect from a player who still has a long way to. As he continues to develop though, he does look like he has complete package NHL franchise player potential, no doubt about it. How many forwards are as complete as Toews in this years draft? None. Kessel, looks like more of a offensive threat, while Toews looks like he has some good offensive potential as well, while being more of a impact player in the other areas of the game, as I said orginally. It is clear why Burke and other scouts would consider taking him over Kessel.

 

[Old Hickory]

Kingsjohn, why are you judging a General Manager based on one half of a season? Shouldn't you wait until the season if over?

I am judging him on his career.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

You see things your way, I see them them my way.

If the Ducks finish as a top 6 team in the West. I will gladly eat crow. I personally don't see that happening and I personally think Burke has made the Ducks a worse team this year. As I am sure you know, this is a team 2 seasons removed from the SCF. Most of the components are still there. He made the decision on Babcock and it's Detriot's gain.

His real job is to build this team into a winning team. By shedding so much salary, he is well on his way.

 

[Hockeycanada*]

Why would youw ant to base your opinion off of a few tournament games? Kessel has outscored Toews so far (and both have played Norway, so that argument is not valid at all). He's 2nd in points and both have played the same teams pretty much.

Yes, Toews might play slightly better defense, but if you watch him at the college level you will see it isn't this world beating defense that some people claim him to have. He's a solid all around player, but it's not like he's a two-way force like Peca or Forsberg. Not even close to that.

I mean, maybe you want to base your entire opinion on a player on tournament player, but not me.

And here is what you don't understand. It isn't Toews role to score goals. His job is to create chances, play a good 2 way game, forecheck, cycle the puck, etc, while Kessel's job is to score goals. These two players are completely different. Toews is doing a great job filling his role, both Bob and Brian Burke and the scouts have alluded to this. On the other hand, in the past few games Kessel is not doing his job. He was completely shut down against Canada. It will be very interesting to see how he plays tonight.

 

[Le Golie]

I know you're a solid poster here and don't want to come off as a dick to you, but how in the world can you possibly justify taking Toews over Kessel? I see Toews play a lot in college. I don't know if you have the liberty of that, but if you actually DO see him play outside of the WJCs, I think you'd be quite quickly changing that opinion. Yes, Toews is a fine prospect and will be a great NHLer, but he is not even close to the level that Phil Kessel is. He's on the Mueller/Frolik level.

You aren't being a dick at all, you are just making a point. The thing is, I would never question that Kessel is a better NCAA player than Toews, and you are right - it's not all that close. But when it comes down to draft time, scouts go in with one objective; taking the player who can help their NHL franchise the most down the road.

And the reason why some (still the minority I'm sure) are liking Toews more than Kessel is because Kessel is developing a lot of question marks with his ability to play through tight checking games - the kind he'll be facing every single night in the NHL. Toews has far fewer question marks in that respect.

 

[Old Hickory]

His real job is to build this team into a winning team. By shedding so much salary, he is well on his way.

Burke's past results speak otherwise. And considering's Anaheim's position in the standings and the cap hell he created, he is helping me make my point.

 

[McDonald19]

You see things your way, I see them them my way.

If the Ducks finish as a top 6 team in the West. I will gladly eat crow. I personally don't see that happening and I personally think Burke has made the Ducks a worse team this year. As I am sure you know, this is a team 2 seasons removed from the SCF. Most of the components are still there. He made the decision on Babcock and it's Detriot's gain.

Babcock and the Ducks had a rough 03-04 though. The signings of Prospal and Fedorov were mistakes made by Bryan Murray and the organization is still recovering from that along with Paul Kariya leaving. Burke is completly rebuilding the Ducks and it's going to take some time.

To get back on topic, Kessel is going to go number 1 because no GM will want to make the mistake of chosing a good player when a potential superstar is available. Especially if Kessel steps up his play even further in the second half of his season it will be too hard to pass up on this rare talent.

 

[joe_shannon_1983*]

The race to #1 right now is pretty much a two horse race. And Toews isn't one of them. It's pretty much down to Kessel vs Johnson for the #1 slot. This is only the half season mark pretty much, but that's the way it should be right now. The #3 - 5 spots seem to be filled (in any order) with Mueller, Frolik, and Toews.

This is pretty much my opinion as well.

Toews is a really nice player. He is the type of guy who anyone would welcome on their team.

But a #1 overall pick he is not, especially when there are special players like Kessel and Johnson available. Toews might have been a #1 overall pick in a weak draft year like 1996 or 1999. But not in a draft year like 2006, not when there are guys available like Kessel and Johnson.

Toews might develop into a very good 2nd-line player, or a nice complimentary 1st-line player.

But Kessel could develop into an all-star player, and Johnson (with his size and mobility) has limitless potential as a all-star defenseman.

 

[Transported Upstater]

And here is what you don't understand. It isn't Toews role to score goals. His job is to create chances, play a good 2 way game, forecheck, cycle the puck, etc, while Kessel's job is to score goals. These two players are completely different. Toews is doing a great job filling his role, both Bob and Brian Burke and the scouts have alluded to this. On the other hand, in the past few games Kessel is not doing his job. He was completely shut down against Canada. It will be very interesting to see how he plays tonight.

I think people understand that. I just feel a player of Kessel's talent offers more potential "uniqueness" than Toews. I feel it's rarer to find a player of Kessel's pure skill level than a player like Toews.

I am in no way slandering Toews. He'd be on my team in a minute. But I just wouldn't pick him first.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Toews has showed a well rounded game that is rare to see in players his age, especially prospects as high profile/as highly touted as he is. Generally the more defensive forwards aren't regarded nearly as highly as Toews. Toews all around game is why he is regarded as highly as he is. Had he not been a two way player he wouldn't see near the amount of ice time in which he does on team Canada, especially on Sutter's teams. You also dont need to be quite the Mike Peca on the defensive end to be better than Phil Kessel defensively, but Toews doesn't need to be Mike Peca at this stage of his game as that would be unreasonable to expect from a player who still has a long way to. As he continues to develop though, he does look like he has complete package NHL franchise player potential, no doubt about it. How many forwards are as complete as Toews in this years draft? None. Kessel, looks like more of a offensive threat, while Toews looks like he has some good offensive potential as well, while being more of a impact player in the other areas of the game, as I said orginally. It is clear why Burke and other scouts would consider taking him over Kessel.

"How many forwards are as complete as Toews in this years draft? None."

WOW. That's an arguable statement if there ever was one. Frolik is definately as complete a player and Mueller is just a tiny step below Toews in that aspect.

No one is arguing that Kessel is a defensive stalwart or that his defense is as good as Toews is. Pretty much everyone acknowledges that Toews is the more complete player of the two. Where I see the error is that people are really thinking that Toews is this complete two way player who will dominate on both ends of the ice. I don't see him putting up nearly the amount of points that Kessel will at the professional level, but he will play at both ends of the rink fairly solidly. I mean, if you get a chance to watch either of them at the college level it is pretty easy to see who really has the offensive instincts between the two of them.

At this stage in their careers, Kessel simply owns Toews on the offensive side of the puck. I don't see at all how this little defensive upgrade on Kessel that Toews has can make up for that HUGE difference in the offensive zone that is pretty clear. As I said, Toews is a great prospect and will make the team who drafts him very happy, but he just isn't that dynamic, game breaker that Kessel is. It just isn't Toews game.

 

[Habs Icing]

Nice try.

I listed the Western Conference standings showing the effectiveness of Brian Burke.

You brought my team into this who wasn't even brought up until YOU brought them up.

If you want to see how good Brian Burke really is take a look at the Vancouver Canucks. That's a team he helped build. With the Ducks, he's been on the job how long? 6-7 months?

 

[Transported Upstater]

To get back on topic, Kessel is going to go number 1 because no GM will want to make the mistake of chosing a good player when a potential superstar is available. Especially if Kessel steps up his play even further in the second half of his season it will be too hard to pass up on this rare talent.

I agree.

And anyone who has read my posts knows im not a States homer.