Bouwmeester's stock?

[priceperlb*]

stock has fallen?
"Has recorded seven points (1G,6A) over the last eight games"
i guess 7 points in 8 games just isnt good enough for a defensemen coming back from a sports hernia. Joni is gonna have to step up.

joni has 36 points in 44 games and is +15
j-bo has 34 points in 67 games and is -3

while i think j bo is still gonna be a star, that doesnt mean you can rag on pitkanen. they are both gonna be stud dmen and right now joni is having a better season.

oh and joni has more GWG that jbo has goals....

Uhhhhhhhhhhh.....did you miss the post where I tried to explain myself further? But don't let that stop you. Numbers do tell it all don't they?

 

[Clash*]

Yes, the Flyers have a better defense corps around Pitkanen, but Pitkanen is the best Flyers defenseman.

If you put the word "healthy" in that phrase, I might tend to agree, but at this in history, Kim Johnsson is a better defenseman than Pitkanen. But with Philly havin stay-at-home defensemen worthy of ice time, Pitkanen has more of a chance to chip in offensively, as opposed to Bouw who is consistently coverin whoever he tends to be paired with's defensive blunders.

It's not just Flyers fans.

No, its also a bunch of people who don't know the game of hockey beyond fantasy stats or who thinks its cool to jump on the bandwagon of the hot name at the time. See the Crosby/Ovechkin debate.

 

[Roger's Pancreas*]

If you put the word "healthy" in that phrase, I might tend to agree, but at this in history, Kim Johnsson is a better defenseman than Pitkanen. But with Philly havin stay-at-home defensemen worthy of ice time, Pitkanen has more of a chance to chip in offensively, as opposed to Bouw who is consistently coverin whoever he tends to be paired with's defensive blunders.

No, its also a bunch of people who don't know the game of hockey beyond fantasy stats or who thinks its cool to jump on the bandwagon of the hot name at the time. See the Crosby/Ovechkin debate.

That's ridiculous in itself, let alone using Mike Rathje's defensive style as a catalyst for Pitkanen's production. In fact, Joni has been the Flyers best defenseman --aside from Rico-- on both sides of the ice no matter who his linemates.

He takes hold of the game and gambles when he thinks the Flyers need another winger to get the job done. When his pinches go wrong, or more commonly when Rathje gets burned behind the play the kid backchecks like a mad man to break it up. But I'll admit it, sometime Pitkanen tries to do too much when the Flyers are losing and winds up getting embarrassed.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

If you put the word "healthy" in that phrase, I might tend to agree, but at this in history, Kim Johnsson is a better defenseman than Pitkanen. But with Philly havin stay-at-home defensemen worthy of ice time, Pitkanen has more of a chance to chip in offensively, as opposed to Bouw who is consistently coverin whoever he tends to be paired with's defensive blunders.

In 2003-04 Johnsson was clearly better than Pitkanen, but this year it hasn't been close. From game 3 in Toronto on, Pitkanen has clearly been the Flyers best defenseman, with only Desjardins in the ballpark.

Johnsson struggled the first 20 games, then he was finally playing close to his capabilites before the Cleary cheapshot.

 

[BigE]

He was the best Canadian defenseman at the Olympics and has been playing very well since. I still really like this kid, and do believe that he was the best defenseman taken in that draft.

 

[Transported Upstater]

Here's an idea: We can all forget Pitkanen and Phaneuf were ever mentioned in a thread that was not supposed to have anything to do with them.

Deal? Deal.


Aki > Bouwmeester

 

[Gags1288]

Not you but flyer fans have said he could have won the Norris this year.

Jbo with 9 shots tonight. He was shootin a lot in ot. Looks like he just needed some confidence.

He has 36 points in 44 games this season. The reason his stats aren't even better on a per game basis is because he was still hurt when he came back and didn't really get back to 100 percent for 5-7 games (maybe still not at 100 percent). He is also a plus 16. Bouwmeester can shoot all he wants, but it would be nice if some of them went in. Pitkanen has three times as many OT game winners as Bouwmeester has goals this season (in 20 fewer games).

So If Joni had played a full season, he likely would've easily eclipsed 70 points and probably been around a +35-40. That sounds like Norris Trophy finalist to me.

 

[Wally112pac]

So If Joni had played a full season, he likely would've easily eclipsed 70 points and probably been around a +35-40. That sounds like Norris Trophy finalist to me.

People don't look at stats when they vote for the Norris lol.

So you're sayin that we wouldn't wear down like 98% of the players do?

He started out on fire in 03-04 too then slowed down.

You can look at stats all you want but to say Pitkanen's total game is where Lidstrom, Chara, Pronger's, Niedermayer's, Redden's and Blake's is just crazy.

To tell you the truth he's in a small group of young dman that will win the Norris for the next decade.

Pitkanen
Whitney
Meszaros
Volchenkov
Bouwmeester
Hamhuis
Seabrook
Phaneuf

IMO that's the elite group of young D in the NHL. All young, all have a lot to learn. All not in the established players class that i mentioned above just yet.

 

[Gags1288]

People don't look at stats when they vote for the Norris lol.

So you're sayin that we wouldn't wear down like 98% of the players do?

He started out on fire in 03-04 too then slowed down.

You can look at stats all you want but to say Pitkanen's total game is where Lidstrom, Chara, Pronger's, Niedermayer's, Redden's and Blake's is just crazy.

To tell you the truth he's in a small group of young dman that will win the Norris for the next decade.

Pitkanen
Whitney
Meszaros
Volchenkov
Bouwmeester
Hamhuis
Seabrook
Phaneuf

IMO that's the elite group of young D in the NHL. All young, all have a lot to learn. All not in the established players class that i mentioned above just yet.

All around game of Chara, Lidstrom, or Niedermayer, probably not. I don't think he's far behind Redden though right now. And I'd take him over Blake right now without thinking twice about it.

Like it or not, stats play a huge role in the Norris trophy, a big reason why Stevens never won it. He would've been right there for the Norris with the numbers he would've put up, his plus/minus and the fact that he is solid in his own zone.

As for the future, I think he and Phaneuf are a step above the rest of the guys. I'd group the guys you listed as follows:

Future Norris near locks
Phanuf and Pitkanen

Could join that group
Bouwmeester and Hamhuis

Real good, potential #1's
Meszaros, Whitney

Top pair
Seabrook

What is he doing here, he's solid, but not a future top pair, imo
Volchenkov


As for Bouwmeester. I'd take his stock has fallen a bit. When he came out, he was supposed to be the next Orr. For all intents and purposes, he went #1 in his draft year. He is an exceptional skater with great size and a very good first pass. I still think he has the talent to be a great defenseman and he's developing just fine, but I also think he's been passed by Phaneuf and Pitkanen without question.

 

[Wally112pac]

I don't think he's far behind Redden though right now. And I'd take him over Blake right now without thinking twice about it.

You're nuts.

It took Redden and Blake a lot of years to get their game to where it is now. And you're sayin Pitkanen has done it in 115 NHL games and 76 in the A?

Pitkanen must be the fastest developing dman in the history of the league to learn this much and know more than a Norris winner.

Like i said he'll get there one day. His prime isn't too far away. Give him a few years before you put Norris next to his name.

 

[Gags1288]

You're nuts.

It took Redden and Blake a lot of years to get their game to where it is now. And you're sayin Pitkanen has done it in 115 NHL games and 76 in the A?

Pitkanen must be the fastest developing dman in the history of the league to learn this much and know more than a Norris winner.

Like i said he'll get there one day. His prime isn't too far away. Give him a few years before you put Norris next to his name.

I'll go a step further...I'd probably take Phaneuf over Blake right now. Rob is not the defenseman that he once was.

43 points in 66 games isn't too impressive for an offensive defenseman like Blake, neither is -3 on a decent team like Colorado. He's also not the physical force that he once was. Pitkanen and Phaneuf have both been more impressive this season.

 

[Wally112pac]

43 points in 66 games isn't too impressive for an offensive defenseman like Blake, neither is -3 on a decent team like Colorado. He's also not the physical force that he once was. Pitkanen and Phaneuf have both been more impressive this season.

Take off the stat glasses please or this won't go much further.

 

[borro]

I'd still trade the Pen's #1 in 2006 for him...

I think the Pens should trade for Barret Jackman from the Blues if they don't get Johnson.

 

[Pete Rock]

Like it or not, stats play a huge role in the Norris trophy, a big reason why Stevens never won it. He would've been right there for the Norris with the numbers he would've put up, his plus/minus and the fact that he is solid in his own zone.

Buh?

I guess you weren't around to see the near point-a-game pace that Stevens was on from the mid-80's to the early 90's.

Stevens' defensive game didn't really developed fully until the early 90's, right when his offensive game disappeared. Stevens has never been a complete defenseman in his entire career, but has been if you combine the first half and second half of his career, which is the reason why Stevens never won a Norris.

As for Bouwmeester. I'd take his stock has fallen a bit. When he came out, he was supposed to be the next Orr. For all intents and purposes, he went #1 in his draft year. He is an exceptional skater with great size and a very good first pass. I still think he has the talent to be a great defenseman and he's developing just fine, but I also think he's been passed by Phaneuf and Pitkanen without question.

Bouwmeester is 22 years old, when most highly touted prospects are just breaking into the league, and he's already played two seasons (three if not for the strike/lockout) at the NHL level. I think his stock has dropped only to those that aren't thinking outside the box.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Thats laughable.

I agree with this. Pitkanen puts up better numbers, but I wouldn't say he's better defensively than Bouwmeester. Bouwmeester isn't flashy, but is very sound in his own end, which is the primary responsibility of a defenseman anyway. Guys like Pitkanen and Phaneuf, while exciting to watch, aren't exactly stalwarts in their own zone at this point.

 

[Transported Upstater]

I think the Pens should trade for Barret Jackman from the Blues if they don't get Johnson.

If the Pens trade the #2 pick (in theory) they are going to ask for more than Barrett Jackman.

 

[HoverCarle*]

Uhhhhhhhhhhh.....did you miss the post where I tried to explain myself further? But don't let that stop you. Numbers do tell it all don't they?

i havent said anything bad about bouwmeester. i was impressed with his play on team canada, and his play of late. but to say pitkanen's stock has fallen is ridiculous. bowmeester has had an extra year of nhl experience and they are playing on a pretty much equal level. pitkanen more offensive, jbo more physical but give pitkanen the extra year in the nhl and see if they play at the same level


^^ and pitkanen is by no means a slack in his own end. maybe j bo is a bit more solid in his own end but pitkanen is still great defensivly.

ive never claimed pitkanen should win the norris this year. just to make that sure. d men who i think would get it before him this year: lidstrom, chara, redden, visnovksy, zubov, neidermayer and pronger.

out of these d men only 3 are under 30. chara and visnovsky are 29 and redden is 28. so give pitkenen a few years and hell definitly be a norris candidate.

 

[roccol]

Joni P. is better then Bobby Orr already for crying out loud! How can you deny it?

 

[FoppaArGud]

Well, if it's fallen ...

He must have been God almighty before because EVERY franchise would love to have him. I think he had a real nice showing in Toronto in 04 but that is not the gauge; that is a short run. As far as regular season play, he has only improved. He is a #1 defenceman (albeit on a lousy team that BLEW a four goal lead tonight before salvaging a W) and his point totals have been on the upswing.

 

[therealdeal]

Anyone that saw him play in the Olympics, World Cup, or World Championships knows that this guy is a stud.

 

[PunjabiOil*]

I'd put it right between Chicken and Beef. It makes a great boil for rice, but lacks the flavor to be the base of a soup.

Great analogy

 

[Liquidrage*]

Guys like Pitkanen and Phaneuf, while exciting to watch, aren't exactly stalwarts in their own zone at this point.

Pitkanen is rather "stalwart" in his own end.

I have no idea where you and a few others are getting this crap from.

He very rarely makes mistakes in the defensive zone. He plays rather physical, especially in front of the crease. Makes very smart plays. Hitch, of all coaches, uses him late in the game, short handed, and at times as a match up defenseman against the other teams best player.

I really don't think you and a few others know what you're talking about. You see the bigger numbers, you see a few highlights, and you assume he must have a little Gonchar in him.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Pitkanen is rather "stalwart" in his own end.

I have no idea where you and a few others are getting this crap from.

He very rarely makes mistakes in the defensive zone. He plays rather physical, especially in front of the crease. Makes very smart plays. Hitch, of all coaches, uses him late in the game, short handed, and at times as a match up defenseman against the other teams best player.

I really don't think you and a few others know what you're talking about. You see the bigger numbers, you see a few highlights, and you assume he must have a little Gonchar in him.

Actually, I see quite a bit of Pitkanen and the Flyers. IMO Pitkanen (and every other young defenseman in the league) still has work to do when it comes to play in his own end. Personally, I think Bouwmeester is more advanced in that regard. You're a raging Pitkanen homer, so I don't count on you being objective though.

 

[Evilo]

I'm a Pens fan, not even close to a Flyers fan, and as I was saying on draft day, I'd take Pitkanen over Bouwmeester.
In ten years, we'll see but so far, Pitkanen has been better than Bouwmeester.
Not that it takes anything away from JayBo, I'd give up a lot to have him on my team, but Pitkanen is IMO very close to Norris trophy level.
JayBo isn't there. Yet.

 

[Sammy*]

Actually, I see quite a bit of Pitkanen and the Flyers. IMO Pitkanen (and every other young defenseman in the league) still has work to do when it comes to play in his own end. Personally, I think Bouwmeester is more advanced in that regard. You're a raging Pitkanen homer, so I don't count on you being objective though.

Agree on all counts.