Bouwmeester's San Antonio production...

[Phanuthier*]

Jay Bouwmeester is an awesome defenseman, no doubt about it. But his flaw is he doesn't take charge nearly often enough. You could put back this guy on a junior team right now and I'm not sure he would look dominant.

The flip side to this is, he is so talented you can put him on an elite squad (like a team Canada) and he isn't out of place at all. He can play with and against the very best.

All this to say, those stats in the AHL just reflect the fact he doesn't dominate and take charge. You could throw him in a world class tournament tomorrow and he'd be talented enough to play well.

I'm not worried at all by the stats, except I was hoping maybe someone would light a fire under his ass. If this guy could take charge... sky is the limit. Even if he remains as he is, he is still one of the safest youngster as far as developing into a star player at the highest level.

Well put

Jay Bouwmeester is a guy who doesn't excel at any level. He'll never be a star defenseman, but he can play at any level.

 

[Wally112pac]

You can look at Prongers and most recently Jovanovski's career path and see that Jbo is on the right track.

Jbo won't make major results until he's 23,24,25. He's still 2-4 years away after this season.

The mistake Hartford and Florida made was they traded the 2 guys a couple seasons before they showed major progress. I doubt Florida will do that. The sky is still the limit for Jbo.

 

[Clash*]

You can look at Prongers and most recently Jovanovski's career path and see that Jbo is on the right track.

Jbo won't make major results until he's 23,24,25. He's still 2-4 years away after this season.

The mistake Hartford and Florida made was they traded the 2 guys a couple seasons before they showed major progress. I doubt Florida will do that. The sky is still the limit for Jbo.

You don't know Florida and the fans here well. I predicted before the beginning of the last NHL season people in south Florida would be *****in about Bouwmeester before the season was over, and they did. I'll guarentee that Bouwmeester gets traded before he reaches anything akin to his proposed potential. Its the nature of the beast here.


As for over rating Panther prospects, that's something a few on the Panthers' board have become overwhelmingly known for. HF havin the Panthers at nineteenth is about as correct as one can have them, and that's with Horton included as a prospect again. Too many question marks, and what prospects that have played in San Antonio have not stood up to the test. Reasons for it... I have a few, but its more than just the head coach, Steve Ludzik.


Oh, and Sotnos is a poor judge of any player on Florida's roster. His hatred for the franchise, its' players/prospects, and its' fans keeps him from bein able to say an impartial word about anything in reference to the organization. But he is correct that whoever claimed Weiss was better than Lecavlier (which I remember happenin, but forget who did it) is insane. But Weiss also holds more value than many give the kid, but only time will prove that.

 

[Wally112pac]

You don't know Florida and the fans here well. I predicted before the beginning of the last NHL season people in south Florida would be *****in about Bouwmeester before the season was over, and they did. I'll guarentee that Bouwmeester gets traded before he reaches anything akin to his proposed potential. Its the nature of the beast here.

I didn't say anything about the fans.

I don't think Keenan will trade Jbo. He was the one who traded Shanny for Pronger so he knows good young dman. (yes, i know Jbo and Keenan have already bumped heads)

 

[petec1978*]

Oh, and Sotnos is a poor judge of any player on Florida's roster.

I doubt you're capable of producing the names of specific players and corroborating evidence (links) to support your claims that she is a "poor judge" of Panthers players. I think it's more to the point that she, like a lot of Lightning fans, has been consistently warning you about the overhyping of prospects and that there is a built in expectations failure rate of 50-66% that you guys never seem to account for in your glowing prophesizing about your "dynasty" just over the horizon.

Bouwmeester is a world class talent with a third world heart. He's a teddy bear, and that's unfortunate because he posseses elite level tools. Plugged into a better system on another team and surrounded by other elite level talents some coach might be able to draw the best out of him. On a lottery team like Florida where the pressure is on him to be the man? It remains to be seen if he can live up to that challenge. I am skeptical. If they're smart they'll let Martin stick around for 3-4 years and actually give their young players a stable environment to play in for once instead of shuffling the deck every 6 months

BTW, for all the incessant overhyping of Bouwmeester's World Cup performance, you guys do realize Vincent Lecavalier was the MVP right?

And for the record, it was Luongofan who claimed the only reason Lecavalier has more trade value than Stephen Weiss is "hype". I tend to think it has more to do with the fact Vinny Lecavalier had more goals and points last season than Weiss has in his entire career, but hey, what do I know?

Returning to the topic at hand, in fairness, its not like Bouwmeester has floundered as much as guys like Taticek, Globke and Kreps. Bouwmeester may never live up to his Norris Trophy billing, but he'll be a very servicable player at the very least. If you're looking at where the Panthers shot themselves in the foot to earn that #19 ranking, there are three potential biggies right there, to say nothing of Anthony Stewart's poor WJC performance or Stefan Meyer almost pulling a Heshmatpour in his draft year's skills testing.

Seriously, Darren Reid has more points than Petr Taticek. What a stinker of a top-10 pick that's turning out to be.

 

[bruins4777*]

err...taticek is a grinder...he was made to be a great defensive forward...not a great scorer. Keep in mind he might still be adjusting to the north american lifestyle.

As for bouwmeester. Lets keep on judging players early shall we?

Anybody remeber how bad hamhuis was in his first AHL season?

 

[petec1978*]

err...taticek is a grinder...he was made to be a great defensive forward...not a great scorer.

In which case you used a top-ten pick on a guy who tops out as a third liner. And that's responsible drafting how?

Keep in mind he might still be adjusting to the north american lifestyle.

Considering this is his 4th year in North America (remember he was an import of Sault's) I'd have to consider his cultural acclimation is a past issue at this stage, unless he's the slowest learner on the planet.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Now Jay-Bo is at 4 goals, 13 assists, and a team "leading" -18 in 53 AHL games. I know he is possibly "on a bad team in a bad system", but I still would expect better numbers from the future superstar that a lot of people on HF have proclaimed him to be.

I would like to see better numbers too but I am not worried, because I have seen what he can do against top competition and what kind of player he is and can become.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Bouwmeester is a world class talent with a third world heart. He's a teddy bear, and that's unfortunate because he posseses elite level tools. Plugged into a better system on another team and surrounded by other elite level talents some coach might be able to draw the best out of him. On a lottery team like Florida where the pressure is on him to be the man? It remains to be seen if he can live up to that challenge. I am skeptical. If they're smart they'll let Martin stick around for 3-4 years and actually give their young players a stable environment to play in for once instead of shuffling the deck every 6 months

BTW, for all the incessant overhyping of Bouwmeester's World Cup performance, you guys do realize Vincent Lecavalier was the MVP right?

And for the record, it was Luongofan who claimed the only reason Lecavalier has more trade value than Stephen Weiss is "hype". I tend to think it has more to do with the fact Vinny Lecavalier had more goals and points last season than Weiss has in his entire career, but hey, what do I know?

I suspect you *may* be on to something about Bouwmeester, although I'm not sure it is heart.

Now, I quoted your post because you mentioned Lecavalier. I know this has nothing to do with this but recently, I was talking with a friend about Bouwmeester and he told me the way I talked reminded him somewhat of the way I described Lecavalier years earlier.

I do think he had a point here. They're both young players who criminally underuse their tremendous talent. There are different issues with both players obviously (and I haven't followed Bouwmeester's junior career the way I did with Vinny), but I do think in time, a coach will figure out how to unlock more out of Bouwmeester. That's what is slowly happening to Lecavalier.

The way I see it, it's not a "heart" problem, nor a rotten attitude. They're really good kids. Polite, honest and all. They just take time to figure how to put the pieces together. They lack some drive to take over. In the case of Vinny he's not even up to a point where I can say he uses all his talent yet. So I suspect it might take a while for Bouwmeester.

And meanwhile, it's not like he's dead wood. Just like Lecavalier, these are elite talents. They don't even need to fully develop to be effective, very effective NHLers.

So far I like what J-Bo has done with the Panthers and team Canada. I'm not really too hot on the stats in San Antonio but I haven't seen any games. Even if I did see some and he sucked, I still wouldn't worry much thanks to what I have seen at a higher level.

 

[Crossbar]

I doubt you're capable of producing the names of specific players and corroborating evidence (links) to support your claims that she is a "poor judge" of Panthers players. I think it's more to the point that she, like a lot of Lightning fans, has been consistently warning you about the overhyping of prospects and that there is a built in expectations failure rate of 50-66% that you guys never seem to account for in your glowing prophesizing about your "dynasty" just over the horizon.

Damn this whole time I seriously had no idea Sotnos was female!!!

Bouwmeester is a world class talent with a third world heart. He's a teddy bear, and that's unfortunate because he posseses elite level tools. Plugged into a better system on another team and surrounded by other elite level talents some coach might be able to draw the best out of him. On a lottery team like Florida where the pressure is on him to be the man? It remains to be seen if he can live up to that challenge. I am skeptical. If they're smart they'll let Martin stick around for 3-4 years and actually give their young players a stable environment to play in for once instead of shuffling the deck every 6 months.

Completely agree with you Pete.

 

[Clash*]

I didn't say anything about the fans.

I don't think Keenan will trade Jbo. He was the one who traded Shanny for Pronger so he knows good young dman. (yes, i know Jbo and Keenan have already bumped heads)

You don't realize how reactionary to the fans ownership is in south Florida. This may have been the first time in history that Keenan has listened to ownership when told to keep his mouth shut on his initial supposed "firing", only to give him time off for the sake of his mother. Keenan has also been known to be a hothead and make rash decisions in the past, and if his buddy Cohen and co. are pressing, there's no tellin what Keenan may do.

 

[Clash*]

I doubt you're capable of producing the names of specific players and corroborating evidence (links) to support your claims that she is a "poor judge" of Panthers players. I think it's more to the point that she, like a lot of Lightning fans, has been consistently warning you about the overhyping of prospects and that there is a built in expectations failure rate of 50-66% that you guys never seem to account for in your glowing prophesizing about your "dynasty" just over the horizon.

Its the constant biasedness, much like your's Pete, that has me sayin this. I don't need the reminder as to the overhyping, since I'm considered one of the more negative followers of the Panthers, thank you. But to take every oppurtunity to try and "claim to warn" no longer shows an objective attitude, but rather a deep loathing or hatred (call it what you want) for anything related to an organization.

Bouwmeester is a world class talent with a third world heart. He's a teddy bear, and that's unfortunate because he posseses elite level tools. Plugged into a better system on another team and surrounded by other elite level talents some coach might be able to draw the best out of him. On a lottery team like Florida where the pressure is on him to be the man? It remains to be seen if he can live up to that challenge. I am skeptical. If they're smart they'll let Martin stick around for 3-4 years and actually give their young players a stable environment to play in for once instead of shuffling the deck every 6 months.

While I can't argue with the judgement of Bouwmeester completely, I can't help but see an insinuation of the team he belongs on in the back of your head bein Tampa, from the rest of your post.

BTW, for all the incessant overhyping of Bouwmeester's World Cup performance, you guys do realize Vincent Lecavalier was the MVP right?

And for the record, it was Luongofan who claimed the only reason Lecavalier has more trade value than Stephen Weiss is "hype". I tend to think it has more to do with the fact Vinny Lecavalier had more goals and points last season than Weiss has in his entire career, but hey, what do I know?

Returning to the topic at hand, in fairness, its not like Bouwmeester has floundered as much as guys like Taticek, Globke and Kreps. Bouwmeester may never live up to his Norris Trophy billing, but he'll be a very servicable player at the very least. If you're looking at where the Panthers shot themselves in the foot to earn that #19 ranking, there are three potential biggies right there, to say nothing of Anthony Stewart's poor WJC performance or Stefan Meyer almost pulling a Heshmatpour in his draft year's skills testing.

Seriously, Darren Reid has more points than Petr Taticek. What a stinker of a top-10 pick that's turning out to be.

Pete, overall your rundown of the Panthers is just as biased, no matter how transparently disguised you try to make it, as Sotnos' is. But I wonder if you're willin to eat crow after slammin Meyer so vehemently after the successful season he has had in the WHL so far. In your head, it has always been about point production, when there's so much more to the game of hockey. For some reason, I get the feeling you possibly feel that Dion Phanuef is a subpar defenseman for the NHL, due to an underwhelming point total for such a highly thought of player in juniors. But then again, you'd never admit that.


BTW Pete, why the name change. Did you get banned again?

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

In which case you used a top-ten pick on a guy who tops out as a third liner. And that's responsible drafting how?

Well one really has to take into consideration that 2002 was a very poor draft year. Outside of the top 6 or so, many scouts said the next 40 players weren't special and it was a toss up. Getting a serviceable NHLer out of the 2002 draft should be considered a success.

Now if they had blown a top 10 pick in 2003 then you'd have to say they were incompetant. But one has to lower the expectations when you look at a poor draft year like 2002.

 

[wint]

Returning to the topic at hand, in fairness, its not like Bouwmeester has floundered as much as guys like Taticek, Globke and Kreps. Bouwmeester may never live up to his Norris Trophy billing, but he'll be a very servicable player at the very least. If you're looking at where the Panthers shot themselves in the foot to earn that #19 ranking, there are three potential biggies right there, to say nothing of Anthony Stewart's poor WJC performance or Stefan Meyer almost pulling a Heshmatpour in his draft year's skills testing.

Seriously, Darren Reid has more points than Petr Taticek. What a stinker of a top-10 pick that's turning out to be.

There is no good pro-Taticek argument. Sure, it looked like a bad draft class after Pitkanen, but there were plenty of serviceable players taken right after him like Semin, Eminger, Babchuk, Grebeshkov, Ballard, etc.

Globke and Kreps were playing well a year ago and have dropped off. Both are currently in the ECHL to learn how to score again, and both are scoring more than a point a game, at least. But there is no getting around the fact that they are mired in disappointing seasons.

As for the other Panthers mistakes you mention, I would think that Anthony Stewart is a shot in the foot that every team in the NHL would love to have, and Stefan Meyer has played brilliantly all season, in addition to developing into a tough team leader. No mistakes there.

And there are at least 4 other guys from outside the first 2 rounds of the 3 and 04 drafts that are currently exceeding expectations: Campbell, Bellissimo, Roussin, Hecimovic. Rick Dudley wasn't the draft master he thought himself to be, but there is no way you can call either of his two years at the helm a bad draft at this point.

 

[bruins4777*]

I think one thing everybody will soon see is that martin is the best at coaching and developing young players. I'd be far from suprised if he is the key figure in accelerating j-bo's development. Not to mention keenan is also either great at developing players or horrible, i think the previous will be true with jay.

 

[petec1978*]

Its the constant biasedness

Supply examples. I'm not asking for a pint of blood, just supply examples.

I can't help but see an insinuation of the team he belongs on in the back of your head bein Tampa

Well if a "better system" and "surrounded by elite level talents" means Tampa Bay to you... hey, run with it brother. I think there's 6 or 7 teams that could apply to personally.

But I wonder if you're willin to eat crow after slammin Meyer

Meyer hasn't proven anything as a professional yet, and his skating is still a major issue. It's my understanding your own board moderator said the exact same thing and you tried to skin poor Heimy alive.



If he succeeds as a scoring liner despite his poor skating, I will say my mea culpas, but I doubt it'll come to that. Occassionally a player overcomes skating deficiencies like that and becomes a great scorer. But for every Luc Robitaille or Dave Andreychuk there are ten Terry Ryans who don't.

For some reason, I get the feeling you possibly feel that Dion Phanuef is a subpar defenseman

Not at all, but I commend you on your attempt to set up a straw man to try and knock down.

There is no good pro-Taticek argument.

Correct.

Globke and Kreps were playing well a year ago and have dropped off. Both are currently in the ECHL to learn how to score again, and both are scoring more than a point a game, at least. But there is no getting around the fact that they are mired in disappointing seasons.

In fairness to those two, they're pro rookies, so a slow start is disappointing but not necessarily indicative of bustdom... yet.

I would think that Anthony Stewart is a shot in the foot that every team in the NHL would love to have

Not the Anthony Stewart that didn't show up for the WJCs. I'm probably being too hard on him for one bad performance. Then again, I think it does speak to the point this guy isn't the Todd Bertuzzi clone Panthers fans make him out to be.

And there are at least 4 other guys from outside the first 2 rounds of the 3 and 04 drafts that are currently exceeding expectations:

You can say that about quite a few teams though. The question is whether those lower rounders become servicable NHL players and again, that 50-66% figure reappears.

Rick Dudley wasn't the draft master he thought himself to be,

Correct.

 

[SmokeyClause]

Anybody remeber how bad hamhuis was in his first AHL season?

Hamhuis wasn't that bad in his first season. He started off slow, but he turned 20 in the middle of the season. And it was his first taste of professional hockey. He got progressively better as the season went on and was one of the Ads best defenseman by seasons end. His situations is rather different from Bouwmeester who was over a year older than Hammer was when they both entered their respective first full AHL seasons and Bouwmeester is in the midst of his 3rd professional season.

 

[Sotnos]

Its the constant biasedness, much like your's Pete, that has me sayin this. I don't need the reminder as to the overhyping, since I'm considered one of the more negative followers of the Panthers, thank you. But to take every oppurtunity to try and "claim to warn" no longer shows an objective attitude, but rather a deep loathing or hatred (call it what you want) for anything related to an organization.

Oh please, it works both ways, buddy!

Anyway, I form my opinions (which last I checked we're all entitled to) from watching your team play a heck of a lot, it's not like I just say things based on hearsay. I frequently see that I'm not alone in my position, so I know I'm not that far off-base.

I don't see what your multiple attacks on me have to do with this thread in which I made one post before this correcting someone's obviously incorrect statement.

 

[gb701]

I've said since before he was drafted that he has the head of a #2 or #3 defender in the skill package of a #1. He does one thing exceptionally well - he can run a breakout better than any young defender in the game, either with his outlet passing or his ability to lug the puck up ice. But other than that he's at his best when he's playing a quiet, simple game and can leave physical and/or offensive end of things to his partner. He's not a player who initiates, and will never dominate or control a game in either the offensive or defensive end of the ice. Pair him with an aggressive Blake-type guy, ask him to play a controlled game in a complementary role and he'll excel (as he has in international play). Give him the responsibilities of a #1 defender and he'll disappoint. He's what you'd get if you put Scott Lachance's head in Chris Pronger's body.

He'll be a very good defender for a very long time, but I just don't think he has the mental makeup to be a Norris Trophy-type guy. Pretty much every player to win that award (or contend for it) has been a take-charge player who can take control of a game and lead by example. Bouwmeester will never ever be that (he wasn't even in the WHL really) ... he'll just be quietly efficient.

This is the best description of J-Bo in this thread. I have been able to watch him many times over the years, and the issue has never been his skill or character or heart or whatever. The "issue" is that he has always been relatively quiet, under control, and played the game well, but never with a lot a "fire" or the need to dominate.

He will, as someone else said, play in the league for years, as a first string d-man, but not at the Norris level. A star perhaps, but no superstar. That should be enough for his team...and his fans.

 

[petec1978*]

but never with a lot a "fire" or the need to dominate.

In other words he's a teddy bear. Maybe questioning his "heart" as I did has too much of a negative connotation to be appropriate, but what you're saying here is exactly the same thing I perceive: a lack of tenacity/ambition. Going back to what Vlad said in comparing Vinny to Bouwmeester, there was no lack of tenacity or ambition in Vinny. He understood he was drafted to be the "savior" of the Lightning franchise and he tried to meet that challenge to live up to that with varying degrees of success. He wanted to be the youngest captain in the league, he wanted that C. He didn't shy away from it. He wasn't ready for that responsibility, but he wanted to lead. He wanted to go after Iginla and throw hands in game two of the finals. It didn't have the kind of slingshot effect he maybe wanted for the rest of his game, but he took that responsibility to physically challenge Jarome. He wanted to lead his team. And from a production standpoint, he's had 20 or mor+e goals from his sophomore campaign in the league on, so from a goalscoring standpoint he's really always been a leader by action on this team.

I don't sense Bouwmeester wants that responsibility or has that tenacity/ambition. I don't think it's in his nature to want to be "the franchise" the way Lecavalier has always at least tried to be. And that's why I said he might be better off on a good team surrounded by good talent because in that situation he can have a certain degree of anonymity as just another cog in the machine. He could do that in a place like New Jersey or Tampa or Detroit, he can't do that in Florida. That's probably why he plays better for the national team than he does with his pro club be it in Florida or San Antonio. So I question whether there's a good fit there, although he should be able to post very respectable point totals of 30-45 points a season with the Panthers some time in the near future and continue to gobble up 20-25 minutes a night.

That should be enough for his team...and his fans.

You can only be told "the future is coming be patient" so many years before its tar and feather time. And the nature of the defenseman position is that, other than goaltender, your mistakes stand out more so than any position on the team and that makes you a focal point for frustration. Here in Tampa, we eat our own defensemen alive. Pretty unfairly, but we do it. I suspect South Florida will be no different, especially as the next 2-3 years roll by and they continue to see they're not catching up fast enough to what Tampa and Atlanta are doing in the division.

 

[The Maltais Falcon]

This is going off-topic a little, but how do you WHL observers feel Braydon Coburn compares to Bouwmeester from a mental standpoint? The big knock I hear on JBo is one of the big ones I hear on Coburn, that he's not assertive enough and seems to be content just coasting by.

 

[Puckhead]

Now Jay-Bo is at 4 goals, 13 assists, and a team "leading" -18 in 53 AHL games. I know he is possibly "on a bad team in a bad system", but I still would expect better numbers from the future superstar that a lot of people on HF have proclaimed him to be.

Dancing Tree, are you trying to tell me that you didn't think he was destined for greatness? I think that if you are hedging your bets on the benefit of looking back at all the hype that surrounded him and still does, and now knowing that he is not having the greatest of seasons in San Antonio.

Lets face facts, his team sucks, and some might argue that he should be used to that, coming from the Panthers, but the way the game is played these days, it is hard for a single guy to stand out if everyone around him is a lesser light.

 

[petec1978*]

Lets face facts, his team sucks, and some might argue that he should be used to that, coming from the Panthers

 

[J17 Vs Proclamation]

This is going off-topic a little, but how do you WHL observers feel Braydon Coburn compares to Bouwmeester from a mental standpoint? The big knock I hear on JBo is one of the big ones I hear on Coburn, that he's not assertive enough and seems to be content just coasting by.

IFrom what i have heard J-Bo is easlit better without even assering his possible size and toughness.

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

This is going off-topic a little, but how do you WHL observers feel Braydon Coburn compares to Bouwmeester from a mental standpoint? The big knock I hear on JBo is one of the big ones I hear on Coburn, that he's not assertive enough and seems to be content just coasting by.

I'd say that's fair. Coburn needs to be more aggressive physically and offensively, just like J-Bo.