Boucher's usage of rookies

[aragorn]

A coach has to manage the bench,. Who goes when. Who's up next. Who's on the PK. Who's on the PP. Rest. Game situations including time, score, zone, physicality. With Boucher trust means a lot. You make mistakes , or you make possibly unnecessarily risky plays and his trust meter edges downward and when he looks down the bench you don't pop out as the next guy he wants up. Hockey is a game of mistakes in many ways. Everyone makes mistakes. Rookies will make mistakes on top of mistakes... Wrong place to be, and gave it away, and lost your man, and cost a goal... So will vets but less likely and the body of work provides a certain amount of predictability of what he is going to get. With a guy like Chabot ..who is used to being very aggressive and thinks attack, the risk he employs will get exposed sometimes in the NHL more , in the AHL less, in Junior much less. Brown too but he plays forward and is more complementary than Chabot who lives to be the guy. Brown is more about the pace, strength, and defensive zone.. Formenton imo, could play 4th line in Guys system as well as a lot of the 4th line options we have.. I don't think its best for his development.. I like that he's getting a taste but just turning 18, I think playing is very important. White although he is not as dynamic as Chabot, can't dish it like Brown, and can't skate like Formenton, would likely have the best chance at sticking and playing under Guy because , White can think defense first. IMO he can and does, and it does hurt his offense, but I also think it would keep him up and he can adjust to have more offense in his focus when he is established as trust worthy to Guy.

It's interesting that White has kind of become a forgotten commodity after so much arguing during the summer that he wouldn't see any time in Belleville & now it looks like he will at the least start there to get some conditioning. It should be really interesting when he is fully healed & starts playing down there, especially if he does well how long he stays down there. I too think that both Formenton & Brown will return to junior at some point although I like what I have seen from Brown so far. Bodes well for the future ... & next season should be interesting .... Formenton - Brown - White

 

[Micklebot]

I'm not sure I'd call White a forgotten commodity; it's just that a kid who gets hurt in training camp before he's proven he deserves a roster spot isn't going to slide right back into the roster when he's healthy.

 

[Viletho]

I think we can debate about White coming back in the lineup right away because if you send back Brown and Formenton to the CHL, there is going to be a spot left open. So who fill it?

Unless there is a guy like McCormick, Paul, Perron, Chlapik, Randell, etc who have took that spot, White as a very good chance to have it. IMO. And if he is send down for conditionning purposes... is it really called being send down? Normally these player come back real fast.

Outside talk about White, who might not say much, but he was introduce to the crowd like a Ottawa Sens player on opening night.. Does it mean something? Maybe, maybe not! What we know is that he is obviously still in Ottawa for recovery purposes, and i would not be surprise if when ready, he is playing right away with the Sens.

Boucher had very good word about White's game and how you can trust him because he his defensive capability.

 

[SAK11]

I'm not saying the NCAA is inferior to the CHL. The style of play is different. A guy like Turris with no meat on his frame playing a ton of physical games, plus the crazy travel in the WHL, plus the fact that we wasn't a super elusive skater at that age would put him at greater risk of being injured or run down compared to the NCAA. It's not just about muscle...it's also endurance.

Like I said, different paths for different players.

Saying he's was at greater risk of injury is different than saying he would've been slaughtered.

Regardless, I believe he would've been a top player in the WHL. He's always been a good skater with great skill and he's always been good at avoiding big hits. His endurance has never been a problem, either. Players close to his size with even less skill/ability have been good/great players in that league. As far as the games played argument, he played over 80 games in the BCHL so the WHL schedule wouldn't have been that shocking for him. As a top end young hockey player, he was used to travelling for hockey, too. All in all, I completely disagree that a top end talent like Turris couldn't have handled the WHL all that well.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

White will likely start in Belleville... If the Sens haven't acquired someone (Athanasaiou ) then he will get a shot sooner than later.

 

[aragorn]

I'm not sure I'd call White a forgotten commodity; it's just that a kid who gets hurt in training camp before he's proven he deserves a roster spot isn't going to slide right back into the roster when he's healthy.

I meant kind of forgotten on here, since there is very little talk about him & a lot of talk about Brown & Formenton but I agree it will be interesting when he is fully healthy again what they do with him. There is a thread about how little ice time GB gives rookies & would it be better for White's development to play big minutes in Belleville or 5 mins in Ottawa although it wouldn't surprise me if he played more, he is very good defensively. Should be an interesting side story to watch with this team & player in the next few weeks.

 

[Micklebot]

I meant kind of forgotten on here, since there is very little talk about him & a lot of talk about Brown & Formenton but I agree it will be interesting when he is fully healthy again what they do with him. There is a thread about how little ice time GB gives rookies & would it be better for White's development to play big minutes in Belleville or 5 mins in Ottawa although it wouldn't surprise me if he played more, he is very good defensively. Should be an interesting side story to watch with this team & player in the next few weeks.

You mean... this thread?
...
..
.

Anywho, I agree that White will likely get more than 5 mins. He seems like a guy that would earn Boucher's trust relatively quickly, and I think he could fit in well on the 3rd line, but he's got to essentially prove what he was supposed to prove in training camp first.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Ok, so what's higher quality icetime; playing against NHL 3rd and 4th liners, or playing against CHL players? There are certainly some exceptionally talented CHL players, but I imagine the worst NHL players are still better than the vast majority of CHL players, so what is it that makes some think the quality of icetime is lacking when young guys play on the 4th line at the NHL level? Is it purely a role debate (4th liners don't typically get asked to create offense, rather they are asked to make the safe plays?) I have a hard time accepting it's about the talent level of the 10 guys on the ice.



No doubt on both counts. Formenton needs to play, and if it's in London (which it probably will be eventually) it's better for him to be getting top mins. But, if Formenton starts getting 12 mins a night here, what makes that appreciably worse than 18 mins in London or on a college team?

Do people get upset when young players play on their SEL (tier 1) teams instead of tier 2 and see their icetime drop?

12 minutes I'm with you 4 pt something minutes .. not so much. Either way there are benefits to him gaining this experience but I would not equate him with the Chabot experience... Chabot was all but guaranteed to play in the WJC and he was ready for a big step in his play which he took and developed further with the experience of leading his QMJHL team, going to the WJC, winning the Q , and playing in the mem cup... I don't think its as easy as saying ... worked for Chabot and it looks like a great decision, to it will have the same effect on Formenton. Formenton is a year younger and has not had the same development opportunities so far as Chabot. Formenton will in all likelyhood go back to junior, and who can say the experience to date has not been good for him. no one...As times and games go on if he struggles or can't get playing time of 10 minutes or more , there is a good argument for him to be sent back with all the good experiences.

 

[Micklebot]

12 minutes I'm with you 4 pt something minutes .. not so much. Either way there are benefits to him gaining this experience but I would not equate him with the Chabot experience... Chabot was all but guaranteed to play in the WJC and he was ready for a big step in his play which he took and developed further with the experience of leading his QMJHL team, going to the WJC, winning the Q , and playing in the mem cup... I don't think its as easy as saying ... worked for Chabot and it looks like a great decision, to it will have the same effect on Formenton. Formenton is a year younger and has not had the same development opportunities so far as Chabot. Formenton will in all likelyhood go back to junior, and who can say the experience to date has not been good for him. no one...As times and games go on if he struggles or can't get playing time of 10 minutes or more , there is a good argument for him to be sent back with all the good experiences.

I think 4 and change was exceptional circumstances and not the intent going into the game. I also think his icetime will increase after a couple games. When I say the Chabot experience, I just mean learning aspects of being a pro, and what it takes to succeed. Has nothing to do with his stage in development. I think he can take what he's getting from here now down to London and use that to motivate him.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I think 4 and change was exceptional circumstances and not the intent going into the game. I also think his icetime will increase after a couple games. When I say the Chabot experience, I just mean learning aspects of being a pro, and what it takes to succeed. Has nothing to do with his stage in development. I think he can take what he's getting from here now down to London and use that to motivate him.

I don't think they dress players with the intent of giving them under 5 minutes... it happens because situations change... Tight games will happen a lot with the Sens. Anyway he's getting the pro experience on the road now... It has to be a thrill for him and a good experience... after tonight he will have played under 5 minutes in 3 games. just sayin

 

[Boud]

You mean... this thread?
...
..
.

Anywho, I agree that White will likely get more than 5 mins. He seems like a guy that would earn Boucher's trust relatively quickly, and I think he could fit in well on the 3rd line, but he's got to essentially prove what he was supposed to prove in training camp first.

Boucher talked highly of White in the pre-season, he's a player you can trust and he's extremely good defensively.

It comes as no surprise though, he's always been counted on at the WJC for team USA to shutdown the opposing team's top line. He was shutting down the best players in the world in his age group, that's pretty impressive. He's always out there when it matters because he can be a difference maker offensively while not costing your team defensively - that's extremely rare for a player of his age.

Will Boucher use him for 5 minutes in his first game back? Very possible. That being said it won't take time for him to get added responsibility on the team since he will gain the coach's trust fairly quickly like you say.

 

[aragorn]

You mean... this thread?
...
..
.

Anywho, I agree that White will likely get more than 5 mins. He seems like a guy that would earn Boucher's trust relatively quickly, and I think he could fit in well on the 3rd line, but he's got to essentially prove what he was supposed to prove in training camp first.

hahahahaha ... yea. The only problem I see with White playing in Ottawa is that this coach prefers the vets like Thompson, Burrows & Pyatt who have contracts for another yr & then there is McCormick who has a one way contract for next season. It's mind boggling what will happen with young prospects on this team.

 

[bert]

I certainly think that game time is important for player development, but it's just one component, the most visible to fans mind you, but one component none the less.

I also find it odd when people complain that a player is on a 4th line; is playing with NHL 4th liners against NHL 4th liners inherently worse than playing against CHL shutdown lines, with CHL linemates? I'm not so sure.

At some point, you need to learn in game, but missing a dozen games at the CHL level while you soak in all sorts of experiences in an NHL level practice probably doesn't hurt development at all.

Ok, so what's higher quality icetime; playing against NHL 3rd and 4th liners, or playing against CHL players? There are certainly some exceptionally talented CHL players, but I imagine the worst NHL players are still better than the vast majority of CHL players, so what is it that makes some think the quality of icetime is lacking when young guys play on the 4th line at the NHL level? Is it purely a role debate (4th liners don't typically get asked to create offense, rather they are asked to make the safe plays?) I have a hard time accepting it's about the talent level of the 10 guys on the ice.



No doubt on both counts. Formenton needs to play, and if it's in London (which it probably will be eventually) it's better for him to be getting top mins. But, if Formenton starts getting 12 mins a night here, what makes that appreciably worse than 18 mins in London or on a college team?

Do people get upset when young players play on their SEL (tier 1) teams instead of tier 2 and see their icetime drop?

If they expect Formenton to assume the role of scoring forward he needs to actually play that role. Thats why 20 minutes a night as an 18 year old in the CHL is better than 10 a night in the NHL getting a grinders ice time.

Thats what I talk about in terms of quality of icetime. Its a progression that has steps, he never even had top 6 icetime in the CHL. How should anyone expect him to be that type of player eventually if he doesnt develop that sideof his skill set.

 

[aragorn]

If they expect Formenton to assume the role of scoring forward he needs to actually play that role. Thats why 20 minutes a night as an 18 year old in the CHL is better than 10 a night in the NHL getting a grinders ice time.

Thats what I talk about in terms of quality of icetime. Its a progression that has steps, he never even had top 6 icetime in the CHL. How should anyone expect him to be that type of player eventually if he doesnt develop that sideof his skill set.

I don't think anyone thinks this kid will stay past the nine game mark if he even makes it that far. The CHL season is pretty long too & he will have lots of time to play this yr in London & hopefully his time here will give him some confidence to challenge for a top 6 job in London. I don't think it hurts him in any way to stay a little bit longer here & get that "pro" experience, I imagine he won't be able to wait to get back to Ottawa after this CHL season. I still think it's a little early to determine what kind of player they have & whether he will be a top 6 or bottom 6 player, only time will tell but hopefully he continues to progress going into next season.

 

[lancepitlick]

I certainly think that game time is important for player development, but it's just one component, the most visible to fans mind you, but one component none the less.

I also find it odd when people complain that a player is on a 4th line; is playing with NHL 4th liners against NHL 4th liners inherently worse than playing against CHL shutdown lines, with CHL linemates? I'm not so sure.

At some point, you need to learn in game, but missing a dozen games at the CHL level while you soak in all sorts of experiences in an NHL level practice probably doesn't hurt development at all.

I think the question is more one of role and confidence. If you project a guy to be an offensive point scorer and he is playing 4th line minutes in a checking role, it becomes harder to practice the skills he needs to succeed in the NHL. There's also a risk of destroying a players confidence. If it is just for 12 games then I can't see it being a problem as they have the rest of the season in junior to do what they are good at and dominate against inferior competition.

Personally if you have a talented offensive player that you believe can be an NHL Top 6/Top 4 D/PP guy it doesn't make sense to have them on the big team at the end of the bench for an extended period. Let them dominate at a level below and come in guns a blazing.

 

[tony d]

I like to see rookies to be brought along slowly, rather than that rushing them in to fast. I like what Boucher is doing. Good to see.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Formenton needs to play .. somewhere.... He is a year younger. Brown could get the Chabot experience from last year. Sounds familiar to some points made in here.
http://ottawacitizen.com/sports/hoc...ots-senators-will-only-keep-kids-if-they-play

 

[BondraTime]

Ok, so what's higher quality icetime; playing against NHL 3rd and 4th liners, or playing against CHL players? There are certainly some exceptionally talented CHL players, but I imagine the worst NHL players are still better than the vast majority of CHL players, so what is it that makes some think the quality of icetime is lacking when young guys play on the 4th line at the NHL level? Is it purely a role debate (4th liners don't typically get asked to create offense, rather they are asked to make the safe plays?) I have a hard time accepting it's about the talent level of the 10 guys on the ice.



No doubt on both counts. Formenton needs to play, and if it's in London (which it probably will be eventually) it's better for him to be getting top mins. But, if Formenton starts getting 12 mins a night here, what makes that appreciably worse than 18 mins in London or on a college team?

Do people get upset when young players play on their SEL (tier 1) teams instead of tier 2 and see their icetime drop?

Formenton is a guy who has never been the guy. He has never even been a top 6 player before.

Chabot last season as a 19 year old already had a full season of being the guy in Saint John. Formenton, right now, has a 17 year old season as a 3rd liner under his belt.

Of course seeing a game here and there on the 3rd/4th line serves better competition, but that isn't exactly helhow HF Formenton develop what we want him too.

In junior he has a chance to be the guy. Learn to anticipate plays and offensive instincts that he is not going to be able to playing with 4th line men who are in the NHL because of their hustle and grit. He will learn to play that kind of game up with us now. I want him to play in an offensive/go to role for the first time in his career.

The ~5-8 mins of limited opportunities he will get here do not outweigh the 17-20 mins of prime development icetime he will get in London.

Especially for Formenton. He has played on a 3rd/4th line role even as a junior. He needs/should get top 6 time as a go to guy. Brown as well. He's a year older and should have another season being the guy.

 

[Tuna99]

I don't think anyone thinks this kid will stay past the nine game mark if he even makes it that far. The CHL season is pretty long too & he will have lots of time to play this yr in London & hopefully his time here will give him some confidence to challenge for a top 6 job in London. I don't think it hurts him in any way to stay a little bit longer here & get that "pro" experience, I imagine he won't be able to wait to get back to Ottawa after this CHL season. I still think it's a little early to determine what kind of player they have & whether he will be a top 6 or bottom 6 player, only time will tell but hopefully he continues to progress going into next season.

Seems that under Dorion the Sens like to keep CHL players for the first couple of weeks of the season while the OHL/QMJHL rookies are learning the league and the guys like Chabot, Formenton and Brown can learn what life like a pro is like and how big a step they have to take.

I really this development philosopshy. The rookie players are getting better by practicing with the big club for an extra month or so and they have a bit of $$$ in their pockets to help them through the year.

 

[Micklebot]

Formenton is a guy who has never been the guy. He has never even been a top 6 player before.

Chabot last season as a 19 year old already had a full season of being the guy in Saint John. Formenton, right now, has a 17 year old season as a 3rd liner under his belt.

Of course seeing a game here and there on the 3rd/4th line serves better competition, but that isn't exactly helhow HF Formenton develop what we want him too.

In junior he has a chance to be the guy. Learn to anticipate plays and offensive instincts that he is not going to be able to playing with 4th line men who are in the NHL because of their hustle and grit. He will learn to play that kind of game up with us now. I want him to play in an offensive/go to role for the first time in his career.

The ~5-8 mins of limited opportunities he will get here do not outweigh the 17-20 mins of prime development icetime he will get in London.

Especially for Formenton. He has played on a 3rd/4th line role even as a junior. He needs/should get top 6 time as a go to guy. Brown as well. He's a year older and should have another season being the guy.

No question about 5-8 mins not being as good as going down to junior, at least not long term. I think there's some unique value he will get from this experience but unless his role increases, he should (and almost certainly will) get sent back to London.

I'd love to try our 4th line as a rookie/sophomore line; Formenton-Brown-Dzingel could be fun for a home game when we can pick our spots.

 

[DJB]

It's time for Brown to go to the OHL and we get an nhl 4th liner here.

 

[bert]

It's time for Brown to go to the OHL and we get an nhl 4th liner here.

Agreed, I think Nick Paul would be a great fit with Thompson and Burrows.

 

[DJB]

I was really hoping we were going to resign Stalberg . I didn't like that Dorion only offered him a one year deal and I see why he rejected it

 

[HSF]

I was really hoping we were going to resign Stalberg . I didn't like that Dorion only offered him a one year deal and I see why he rejected it

Meh Stalberg was good in his role but we have White coming through and maybe Paul. Rather give them a chance

 

[Micklebot]

I was really hoping we were going to resign Stalberg . I didn't like that Dorion only offered him a one year deal and I see why he rejected it

Stalberg wouldn't have made much sense with Hoffman, MacArthur, Dzingel, and Smith playing LW. With Mac LTIRetired, there's a crack in the roster that he might have been able to squeeze into, but with White looking like a strong candidate to make the team, along with Pyatt, and Burrows being able to play the left side, (not to mention Ryan who's mostly played there this year) it seems like a no brainer why we would have limited interest in re-signing him.