Boucher's usage of rookies

[Micklebot]

Lots of folks have expressed concerns with how Boucher plays his rookies, I though I'd dive in a little deeper and look at the trends so far;

Last year, we introduced a few young players under Boucher;

Chabot: 1 game total
Game 1 ; approximately 7 mins. Returned to minors

Dzingel: 81 games (plus playoffs)
<10 mins his first two games,
- around 10 to 14 mins till game 10,
- Around 15 mins thereafter

Claesson: 33 games (plus playoffs)
~ 10 mins for his first 20 games or so
15-20 mins thereafter

Harpur: 6 Games (plus playoffs)
~ 10 mins for his first 2 games,
~ 20 mins thereafter

In Tbay, here's how he treated some rookies;

Dana Tyrell: 78 games (2011)
about 6-8 mins for first 2 games
about 12-14 a night thereafter

Brett Connolly: 68 games
Jumped right in at around 15 mins a night, then saw his icetime drop as the season went on

There's definitely a tendency of easing guys in over their first game or two, but in many cases the reigns come off pretty quickly and the players have been incorporated in if they show they're ready.

What does this mean for Brown and Formenton?

I think if they get more games, they'll be given more mins. I feel as though Boucher really likes to dip his toe in the water with inexperienced player, but when he feels the time is right, he'll dive right in.

Click to read more...

 

[18Hossa]

For Formenton I'd say he'll probably be stuck barely playing if the trend continues since I think he'll probably get sent down after Saturday's game. I kinda feel the same with Brown, although he may get elevated minutes from playing on the PP but I think they probably send him down when White gets healthy.

 

[BonkTastic]

I imagine Formenton is back in the OHL by the end of the month at the latest, but that's clearly just a gut call on my part based on precedence.

 

[aragorn]

I'm gonna guess Formenton is returned to junior after this western trip & Brown might hand on for a little longer.

 

[Micklebot]

I think White will go to the AHL when healthy, and be the first callup.

Formenton will go back to the CHL unless he starts taking over on the shifts he's given.

Brown might stay up a bit longer. I think he needs to learn to play against bigger stronger opposition, so there's some value to keeping him up, but unless he starts controlling the play when out there, he should be sent down too.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

A coach has to manage the bench,. Who goes when. Who's up next. Who's on the PK. Who's on the PP. Rest. Game situations including time, score, zone, physicality. With Boucher trust means a lot. You make mistakes , or you make possibly unnecessarily risky plays and his trust meter edges downward and when he looks down the bench you don't pop out as the next guy he wants up. Hockey is a game of mistakes in many ways. Everyone makes mistakes. Rookies will make mistakes on top of mistakes... Wrong place to be, and gave it away, and lost your man, and cost a goal... So will vets but less likely and the body of work provides a certain amount of predictability of what he is going to get. With a guy like Chabot ..who is used to being very aggressive and thinks attack, the risk he employs will get exposed sometimes in the NHL more , in the AHL less, in Junior much less. Brown too but he plays forward and is more complementary than Chabot who lives to be the guy. Brown is more about the pace, strength, and defensive zone.. Formenton imo, could play 4th line in Guys system as well as a lot of the 4th line options we have.. I don't think its best for his development.. I like that he's getting a taste but just turning 18, I think playing is very important. White although he is not as dynamic as Chabot, can't dish it like Brown, and can't skate like Formenton, would likely have the best chance at sticking and playing under Guy because , White can think defense first. IMO he can and does, and it does hurt his offense, but I also think it would keep him up and he can adjust to have more offense in his focus when he is established as trust worthy to Guy.

 

[Agent Zub]

I'd like them to give Brown a significant chance with one of Hoffman or Stone.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

It's already been stated on the record by Dorion that he has told Boucher that unless Formenton is playing top 9 minutes, he'll eventually be re-assigned to Junior.

I don't recall hearing anything about Brown. I think it's plausible they'd keep Brown for his 9 games until White returns and then assess the situation at that time.

 

[18Hossa]

I'd like them to give Brown a significant chance with one of Hoffman or Stone.

Yea iirc Brown looked good between Ryan and Stone briefly in the preseasons but Brassard is doing well with them right now so I doubt they split that trio up right now.

 

[Boud]

Good work on the research.

I like to see that. I feel like this is the way to go. You don't want to discourage a young player in his first game, you don't want say Formenton to jump on the ice at the same time as Ovechkin and get scored on in his first game/shifts. You wanna give the kids a chance to settle in and learn the system a bit more, get up to NHL speed and understand how everything you do impacts the game at this level. As mentionned before, this is not a development league, there are some things to learn in the AHL unlike so many think.

I think Boucher knows a lot about the mental aspect of the game. He's doing his best to have confident players and confidence is key to success, especially when you're young and trying to establish yourself.

 

[Micklebot]

On a bit of a tangent, but for those who think kids like Formenton would be better served playing big mins in the CHL:

How do you feel about College players who play 2 games a week? What's better for development; playing 10-12 mins against NHL 3rd and 4th lines three to four times a week and practicing with an NHL team in between, or playing 20 mins two times a week against college players? and practicing on a college schedule?

I rarely if ever have seen complaints about the college development system hurting a player long term, but it seems to me these players are typically not getting significantly more playing time than a NHL rookie playing 10-12 mins a night.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

On a bit of a tangent, but for those who think kids like Formenton would be better served playing big mins in the CHL:

How do you feel about College players who play 2 games a week? What's better for development; playing 10-12 mins against NHL 3rd and 4th lines three to four times a week and practicing with an NHL team in between, or playing 20 mins two times a week against college players? and practicing on a college schedule?

I rarely if ever have seen complaints about the college development system hurting a player long term, but it seems to me these players are typically not getting significantly more playing time than a NHL rookie playing 10-12 mins a night.

I think it all depends on the player. Some kids develop quickly and need the challenge of games, while others need that practice & gym time more than actual games. I believe it was Xspirit talking about puck touches and in a game (70 seconds or less) compared to practices. A guy like Turris would've been slaughtered in junior, while a guy like McDavid would've been bored out of his mind in the NCAA.

 

[Micklebot]

I think it all depends on the player. Some kids develop quickly and need the challenge of games, while others need that practice & gym time more than actual games. I believe it was Xspirit talking about puck touches and in a game (70 seconds or less) compared to practices. A guy like Turris would've been slaughtered in junior, while a guy like McDavid would've been bored out of his mind in the NCAA.

Not sure why you think Turris would have been slaughtered in the CHL; I think College teams are bigger on average than CHL teams, they're certainly older and more mature. Are you suggesting he couldn't handle the grind of playing more games? Turris played in the BCHL so he had played in a ~60 game schedule.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Not sure why you think Turris would have been slaughtered in the CHL; I think College teams are bigger on average than CHL teams, they're certainly older and more mature. Are you suggesting he couldn't handle the grind of playing more games? Turris played in the BCHL so he had played in a ~60 game schedule.

Grind, and the physical play of the WHL is a lot higher than tier 2 or NCAA. I remember that draft....Turris was skinny to the point you'd put him on a poster for famine relief.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

I have nothing at all against forcing rookies to outplay vets to earn to a spot. Detroit worked that model for decades, and until recently have had great success bringing older rookies into the lineup when they're ready.

Bring in vets for cheap to fill out the bottom 6 and pair, make the rookies earn their spot. Force their way up the lineup. Don't hand them anything.

 

[Micklebot]

Grind, and the physical play of the WHL is a lot higher than tier 2 or NCAA. I remember that draft....Turris was skinny to the point you'd put him on a poster for famine relief.

Turris was listed as 6' 170 his draft year. Similar to Marner for example, and bigger than Patrick Kane. CHL grind didn't seem to impact those smaller players.

I get the value of college allowing smaller guys the time to hit the gym and bulk up a bit, but I'm not sure the grind of the CHL would be detrimental, as lots of small players have thrived in that league.

 

[Viletho]

I'd like them to give Brown a significant chance with one of Hoffman or Stone.

IMO you don't touch Ryan-Brass-Stone for now

But i would be willing to try something like :
Brown-Turris-Hoffman( you switch the center depending on faceoff side )

Turris and Hoffman are shooter, they need a playmaker to give them the puck and Brown is just that. I understand the pressure that could be on Brown's shoulder but you can switch him by Dzingle or Smith from shift to shift to manage the minutes.. Boucher does that all the time anyway.

Ryan-Brass-Stone
Brown-Turris-Hoffman
Smith-Pageau-Pyatt ( shutdown line )
Dzingle-Thompson-Burrows

Like i said, Dzingle would see some 2nd line minute, for managing purposes, but that way Brown would get veteran player by his side, and he would be able to play their playmaker, which they need.

 

[SAK11]

Grind, and the physical play of the WHL is a lot higher than tier 2 or NCAA. I remember that draft....Turris was skinny to the point you'd put him on a poster for famine relief.

Turris would've been fine. He was one of Canada's best players at both the Super Series and the World Juniors, both tourney's filled with great junior players. NCAA players are older and more mature, they spend more time practicing and working out, it's by no means a step down from the WHL. Turris' lack of strength/size wouldn't have been all that different from a lot of CHL kids who are only 17/18 years old.

 

[Agent Zub]

IMO you don't touch Ryan-Brass-Stone for now

But i would be willing to try something like :
Brown-Turris-Hoffman( you switch the center depending on faceoff side )

Turris and Hoffman are shooter, they need a playmaker to give them the puck and Brown is just that. I understand the pressure that could be on Brown's shoulder but you can switch him by Dzingle or Smith from shift to shift to manage the minutes.. Boucher does that all the time anyway.

Ryan-Brass-Stone
Brown-Turris-Hoffman
Smith-Pageau-Pyatt ( shutdown line )
Dzingle-Thompson-Burrows

Like i said, Dzingle would see some 2nd line minute, for managing purposes, but that way Brown would get veteran player by his side, and he would be able to play their playmaker, which they need.

That would work as well. However I feel like Dzingle is a waste on that 4th line. He's capable of being a 20 goal scorer but not if you play him with those guys.

Smith - Pageau - Dzingle (he can play rw right?)

Would be an amazing 3rd line.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Turris would've been fine. He was one of Canada's best players at both the Super Series and the World Juniors, both tourney's filled with great junior players. NCAA players are older and more mature, they spend more time practicing and working out, it's by no means a step down from the WHL. Turris' lack of strength/size wouldn't have been all that different from a lot of CHL kids who are only 17/18 years old.

I'm not saying the NCAA is inferior to the CHL. The style of play is different. A guy like Turris with no meat on his frame playing a ton of physical games, plus the crazy travel in the WHL, plus the fact that we wasn't a super elusive skater at that age would put him at greater risk of being injured or run down compared to the NCAA. It's not just about muscle...it's also endurance.

Like I said, different paths for different players.

 

[Micklebot]

IMO you don't touch Ryan-Brass-Stone for now

But i would be willing to try something like :
Brown-Turris-Hoffman( you switch the center depending on faceoff side )

Turris and Hoffman are shooter, they need a playmaker to give them the puck and Brown is just that. I understand the pressure that could be on Brown's shoulder but you can switch him by Dzingle or Smith from shift to shift to manage the minutes.. Boucher does that all the time anyway.

Ryan-Brass-Stone
Brown-Turris-Hoffman
Smith-Pageau-Pyatt ( shutdown line )
Dzingle-Thompson-Burrows

Like i said, Dzingle would see some 2nd line minute, for managing purposes, but that way Brown would get veteran player by his side, and he would be able to play their playmaker, which they need.

I agree, there is no way you break up the Brass line right now.

Having said that, I might try something like this:

Ryan-Brass-Stone
Dzingel-Turris-Hoffman
Smith-Brown-Pageau (centers swap depending on location of faceoff)
Pyatt-Thompson-Burrows

- Brown gets insulation with quality two way players.
- 4th line is a matchup line,
- Stacked top 6

 

[TheBradyBunch]

On a bit of a tangent, but for those who think kids like Formenton would be better served playing big mins in the CHL:

How do you feel about College players who play 2 games a week? What's better for development; playing 10-12 mins against NHL 3rd and 4th lines three to four times a week and practicing with an NHL team in between, or playing 20 mins two times a week against college players? and practicing on a college schedule?

I rarely if ever have seen complaints about the college development system hurting a player long term, but it seems to me these players are typically not getting significantly more playing time than a NHL rookie playing 10-12 mins a night.

Thank you for looking into this because a little reality check is long overdue imo. I'm shocked that people think this is detrimental for Formenton or Brown. Look at what Niederreiter went through on Long Island - he played 5 mins a game all year on one of the worst lines in recent memory and even that didn't seem to really impact his long-term trajectory.

Now, I don't want that for either of our guys, but I really can't understand the rationale behind people thinking this will hurt Formenton or Brown. I think just being with the team will be great for both of them.

 

[Micklebot]

Thank you for looking into this because a little reality check is long overdue imo. I'm shocked that people think this is detrimental for Formenton or Brown. Look at what Niederreiter went through on Long Island - he played 5 mins a game all year on one of the worst lines in recent memory and even that didn't seem to really impact his long-term trajectory.

Now, I don't want that for either of our guys, but I really can't understand the rationale behind people thinking this will hurt Formenton or Brown. I think just being with the team will be great for both of them.

I certainly think that game time is important for player development, but it's just one component, the most visible to fans mind you, but one component none the less.

I also find it odd when people complain that a player is on a 4th line; is playing with NHL 4th liners against NHL 4th liners inherently worse than playing against CHL shutdown lines, with CHL linemates? I'm not so sure.

At some point, you need to learn in game, but missing a dozen games at the CHL level while you soak in all sorts of experiences in an NHL level practice probably doesn't hurt development at all.

 

[bert]

On a bit of a tangent, but for those who think kids like Formenton would be better served playing big mins in the CHL:

How do you feel about College players who play 2 games a week? What's better for development; playing 10-12 mins against NHL 3rd and 4th lines three to four times a week and practicing with an NHL team in between, or playing 20 mins two times a week against college players? and practicing on a college schedule?

I rarely if ever have seen complaints about the college development system hurting a player long term, but it seems to me these players are typically not getting significantly more playing time than a NHL rookie playing 10-12 mins a night.

Well really the only jr league in the world that plays lots of games is the CHL. Most play 50 or less and concentratre more on skill development, same goes for College. College teams practice WAY more than CHL teams, its about the quality of the icetime not the total amount of time on ice in game situations.

I certainly think that game time is important for player development, but it's just one component, the most visible to fans mind you, but one component none the less.

I also find it odd when people complain that a player is on a 4th line; is playing with NHL 4th liners against NHL 4th liners inherently worse than playing against CHL shutdown lines, with CHL linemates? I'm not so sure.

At some point, you need to learn in game, but missing a dozen games at the CHL level while you soak in all sorts of experiences in an NHL level practice probably doesn't hurt development at all.

Agreed, but they cant keep him up here all year. What Formenton needs is in game experience of the CHL learning to score in all situations. He didnt have that role last year in London.

 

[Micklebot]

Well really the only jr league in the world that plays lots of games is the CHL. Most play 50 or less and concentratre more on skill development, same goes for College. College teams practice WAY more than CHL teams, its about the quality of the icetime not the total amount of time on ice in game situations.

Ok, so what's higher quality icetime; playing against NHL 3rd and 4th liners, or playing against CHL players? There are certainly some exceptionally talented CHL players, but I imagine the worst NHL players are still better than the vast majority of CHL players, so what is it that makes some think the quality of icetime is lacking when young guys play on the 4th line at the NHL level? Is it purely a role debate (4th liners don't typically get asked to create offense, rather they are asked to make the safe plays?) I have a hard time accepting it's about the talent level of the 10 guys on the ice.

Agreed, but they cant keep him up here all year. What Formenton needs is in game experience of the CHL learning to score in all situations. He didnt have that role last year in London.

No doubt on both counts. Formenton needs to play, and if it's in London (which it probably will be eventually) it's better for him to be getting top mins. But, if Formenton starts getting 12 mins a night here, what makes that appreciably worse than 18 mins in London or on a college team?

Do people get upset when young players play on their SEL (tier 1) teams instead of tier 2 and see their icetime drop?