Rumor: Bobby Ryan not exempt from expansion draft | Ryan talk

[Stylizer1]

ok then, look at his ice time amongst forwards.

NHL.com says it is 187th in the league in terms of average TOI
his PPG amongst all forwards is 171 PPG

again, it is the same....his productivity and his utilization reflects one another

His minutes dropped because he was not producing. If he were producing his minutes would be fine. What should be the response when given minutes and he slumps hard? His minutes are because of him.

 

[aragorn]

I stumbled upon the Sens practice today by accident and watched the first 30 minutes. As they were just skating around the ice and shooting on an empty net I paid close attention to Ryan. He practiced as hard as he plays in games. Zero intensity until the 3 on 2's and then was just trying to keep up with the play. Everyone was looking sharp in those drills putting in effort. At ice level the speed is crazy.

This is when you notice how fast these guys are, how big they are, how young they look & how good they are. But as coaches have always told me, you play the way you practise & if you don't practise hard enough, you are never going to be able to play hard enough, the extra gear doesn't just magically appear if you don't work at it. The vast majority of the best players in almost all sports are also the hardest workers.

I have come to the opinion that Ryan is not passionate about playing hockey. IMO he does not love the game. He has talent but not a burning desire for the game. That can't be fixed.

I just don't know what is up with Ryan & whether it's between his ears or simply it's become a job to him & he just does enough to get by. He has tremendous skill & is an excellent passer but just seems to lack the intensity or energy during most games. It's what Brian Burke said about him seems to be more truth than fiction & he is a difficult guy to defend on here. He has had more than his share of injuries & specifically to his hands which are his bread & butter but to me it looks like more of a case of disinterest as you say.

It will be interesting to see his reaction if Ottawa leaves him unprotected this summer, does it motivate him or turn him against the organization? I agree with you, if he lacks the passion & desire that can't be fixed, at least not at this stage of his career but as we say that he could still put in a 50 pt season next yr without even trying that hard with his skill. That's the problem with Ryan, you know he has it in him, but he doesn't seem motivated enough to go after it.

 

[Xspyrit]

I may speak in exaggeration sometimes, but it's not as hyperbolic as you think. Tbh, even if Ryan was getting paid 3-4 mil, I'd want him off the team. He doesn't suit our top 6 or bottom 6 so why have him? I was quite vocal with Milo and I think Milo in his late years was better than Ryan is now. Ryan doesn't do much of anything at all when he isn't scoring points... and he isn't even scoring a lot of points. He's paid a bit too much? Are you serious? He's paid double what he's worth.

IMO an excellent comparable for him now is probably Vanek. Ryan deserves Vanek's 2.6 mil. I'd give him 3.5 MAXIMUM, if I was in a giving mood. The thing is, we don't have an elite center or forward group, so guys like Ryan we'll never get the best out of. I'd rather just get a 40 point 2 way beast who will help us in possession and make a team like CLB.

Vanek literally put up almost exact same season, last year, that Ryan is putting up this year and he only got 2.6 mil IN FREE AGENCY.

I am sorry RKL but the way you post sometimes makes you sound delusional. And I am going to show you why just right now.

In this post, you claim that Bobby Ryan is "paid double what he's worth." So you are saying that he is worth 3.625 per year.. You basically said you were NOT hyperbolic here.

Do you want to see which forwards make that kind of money on their UFA years? (3.5 to 4.0)

Matt Read, Patrik Berglund, 37 y/o Pascal Dupuis, David Perron, Matt Beleskey, 37 y/o Chris Kunitz, Darren Helm, Cody Eakin, 40 y/o Shane Doan, Andrew Shaw, Colin Wilson

Do you expect serious people to take you seriously?

And comparing it with Vanek "1 year prove-it" contract? Like really?

Vanek earned $7,142,857 while Ryan was earning $5,100,000 and then $6,500,000 for 3 years before this season.

Ryan was on pace for something like 28 goals and 56 points during what ended up as his contract year. This was despite playing a big chunk of the season injured before being shut down when Ottawa decided playoffs were out of reach. First half of the season prior to getting injured he was even better. There certainly was a dynamic where Ottawa couldn't afford to let Ryan walk, but he was everything he was advertised to be in his first season which was the one that earned him his extension as like most big stars he signed a year early. He signed at the perfect time before the CAD tanked which meant the cap outlook was much more optimistic. Go look at some of the UFA year contracts signed around that time. Over 7M at the time was basically what 6M is now to UFA forwards.

Ryan has been a disappointment since signing that deal, but I hate the revisionist history that the contract was a pure panic move. They signed arguably their best forward from the previous year to a market value contract extension when their forward depth looked like this without him.....Turris, Zibanejad, Michalek, Chiasson, and then a mishmash of guys like Condra, Smith pre-awesome, Greening, Neil. Stone/Hoffman had yet to break out when he signed.

We should force people to read reality posts like this before commenting on the subject. Ask them questions and if they get the answers, then they can participate

He isn't producing at his contract level, he isn't being utilized at that level either. But he isn't producing like a 3rd liner and he isn't $ 5M overpaid.

In before somebody actually tells you that this isn't as hyperbolic as we think

I cannot understand for the life of me that people choose to compare salaries with their GM fantasy league instead of the real NHL market.

Xspyrit

what I called an oxymoron was you using the phrase

"UFAs in their prime"

UFAs aren't in their prime.....they get signed to long term deals and are in their declining years....which is the situation with Ryan

Ah ok, I am not very used to that term. English is my 3rd language sorry

Yeah, they are not really in their prime, but those in their late 20's still are and can still contribute a great deal (players I listed for example)

Sorry for expecting a guy with a 7.25 million dollar cap hit to be an impact player. My mistake I guess.

I'm happy for you that you're satisfied with one pass he made last game. I guess that justifies his high salary. Hey everybody Bobby Ryan mad a nice pass! Let's shower him with praise!

Nobody is giving him praise. Nobody is satisfied with one nice pass. Everybody would like more from him, but even if he plays below expectations, it doesn't justify the crazy delusional things we can read on here.

You have unrealistic expectations about Ryan. He is not an elite player. Of course if you look straight at the cap hit without understanding the context, you are totally right. But like danielpalfredsson explained in post #953, the timing of the signing is a big reason why his cap hit is inflated. Another reason is the fact that Ottawa is a small market in Canada with heavy taxes (I asked a few NHL and ex-NHL players and they confirmed me that most players would rather sign in USA cities with lower taxes) and a ****** winter. No history of winning or the big city feel that attracts many players as well.

Bobby Ryan should have been signed 6.0 per year, but Ottawa had to overpay to keep him because if not, Ryan would most likely have just signed for an American city (in his country) with less taxes.

So what do you want to do about it? He is overpaid and it's the reality. I mean it has been said enough, what else is there to say? Are we going to cry about it forever? lol

Do you think he is the only player overpaid in the league?

https://www.capfriendly.com/cost_per_point/2017/season/all/all/all/costperpoints/desc

 

[dingbatz]

I just hope there will be money made available for when Stone, Turris and Karlsson's contracts come up in a few years.

 

[Answer]

The main reason we have been medicore for past 10 years is that our highest paid elite/star players (call it whatever you want) are soft, doesn't always compete, at times look disinterested.

Heatley
Ryan
Spezza


Gone are the days when our elite player played hard, and had heart aka Alfredsson, Hossa.

 

[MaxTheLimit]

I just hope there will be money made available for when Stone, Turris and Karlsson's contracts come up in a few years.

So far as Stone and Turris are concerned, I don't think the cap will be a problem. As you say, money will be the thing. Turris will be making $4M his last year, and Stone will be making $4.5. With MacArthur having a lot of his salary covered by insurance, only paying 2 NHL goalies ( hopefully ) by then, and guys like Neil + Boro replaced by guys like White and Chabot on their ELC ( which will be slightly cheaper ) , plus the cap floor creeping up, after all those things there should be enough to give them a tidy raise. Probably $5.5M - $6M each per year.

As for Karlsson, by then Methot will be rolling off at $4.9M per year ( his cap hit / salary are the same ). Either he signs cheaper when he is in his mid 30's or he is replaced by someone younger and cheaper to resign Karlsson. Who knows how much that's gonna take though.

 

[JD1]

His minutes dropped because he was not producing. If

ok, so you said his minutes dropped because he was not producing.

So rather than accept made up noise, here's some data from NHL.com

in his previous 3 seasons combined, Bobby Ryan amongst RWs was

16th in points
26th in goals
26th in ice time

if his production was dropping, that would be evident in the data

last year, amongst RWs he was
14th in points
18th in goals
26th in ice time

in fact, it is a valid statistical argument to say he OUTPRODUCED his ice time in so far as he was cumulatively 16th in points while being 26th in ice time.

and if you go by PPG and use a 100 game filter over the past 3 seasons, he is 22nd in PPG.

He's played through a sports hernia and multiple broken fingers.

So, if his productivity didn't drop the 3 previous years and his productivity this year is in line with his utilization...when EXACTLY is it that his ice time dropped because his productivity dropped?

You posted that statement so please explain it to me.

 

[JD1]

and if you look at all forwards instead of just RWs

cumulatively over the past 3 seasons, he is

59th in points
69th in PPG
104th in ice time

again, outproducing his ice time .

 

[Stylizer1]

ok, so you said his minutes dropped because he was not producing.

So rather than accept made up noise, here's some data from NHL.com

in his previous 3 seasons combined, Bobby Ryan amongst RWs was

16th in points
26th in goals
26th in ice time

if his production was dropping, that would be evident in the data

last year, amongst RWs he was
14th in points
18th in goals
26th in ice time

in fact, it is a valid statistical argument to say he OUTPRODUCED his ice time in so far as he was cumulatively 16th in points while being 26th in ice time.

and if you go by PPG and use a 100 game filter over the past 3 seasons, he is 22nd in PPG.

He's played through a sports hernia and multiple broken fingers.

So, if his productivity didn't drop the 3 previous years and his productivity this year is in line with his utilization...when EXACTLY is it that his ice time dropped because his productivity dropped?

You posted that statement so please explain it to me.

Yeah, why don't you tell the coach. Maybe he doesn't realize it but if you tell him he will be like "OH, I should play him more".

Just because a player scores 50 goals one season and 1 the next doesn't make him a 25 goal player. Stats are great for proving a point but the point is he is not playing and what caused that?

Players just fall off sometimes and just because you can compare them to other players doesn't make the argument less valid.

Like I have always said he disappeared at the end of each season and was never as vital of a player that contributed to our success. Ryan is taking a spot on this team that could easily be filled by someone half the price.

Coaches know that if the bench him they will probably lose him even more, He seems like that guy.

 

[JD1]

Yeah, why don't you tell the coach. Maybe he doesn't realize it but if you tell him he will be like "OH, I should play him more".

Just because a player scores 50 goals one season and 1 the next doesn't make him a 25 goal player. Stats are great for proving a point but the point is he is not playing and what caused that?

Players just fall off sometimes and just because you can compare them to other players doesn't make the argument less valid.

Like I have always said he disappeared at the end of each season and was never as vital of a player that contributed to our success. Ryan is taking a spot on this team that could easily be filled by someone half the price.

Coaches know that if the bench him they will probably lose him even more, He seems like that guy.

yap, yap yap, noise, noise, noise

you said

His minutes dropped because he was not producing

and I just showed you a bunch of stats on his productivity that rather clearly shows his productivity over 3 years here was contact at a mid tier 1st line rate.

I don't make the stats up......what's been made up here is

His minutes dropped because he was not producing

unless you can back that statement up with something factual

I don't mind Ryan being criticized. He isn't producing big numbers and he has a big contract which is going to make you a lightning rod for criticism.

But you start looking at his numbers and his utilization and the data is pretty clear, he is not being put in a position to produce like he has in the past and there simply isn't any data to say he stopped producing therefore his icetime changed.

What I think is clear is that there are a couple of players whose icetime and stats are being impacted by a change in philosophy. Ryan is one of them.

 

[Uchiha]

His shot is noticeably weaker now. I rarely ever see him get a clean hard shot off.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

I am sorry RKL but the way you post sometimes makes you sound delusional. And I am going to show you why just right now.

In this post, you claim that Bobby Ryan is "paid double what he's worth." So you are saying that he is worth 3.625 per year.. You basically said you were NOT hyperbolic here.

Do you want to see which forwards make that kind of money on their UFA years? (3.5 to 4.0)

Matt Read, Patrik Berglund, 37 y/o Pascal Dupuis, David Perron, Matt Beleskey, 37 y/o Chris Kunitz, Darren Helm, Cody Eakin, 40 y/o Shane Doan, Andrew Shaw, Colin Wilson

Do you expect serious people to take you seriously?

That's exactly what Im saying. People thought I was overexaggerating and out to lunch with Kuba, with Spezza, with Michalek blah blah blah, all those guys left and we're for the better. I may overexaggerate here and there but im normally always on the money in regards to who is ****ing the bed and who's about to decline big time. That's why we've been treading medicority all these years, who don't know when to cut ties, we wait until it's too late. Too much friendly smiles and not even tough business decision making. Kelly said it himself when he went from Ottawa to Boston.

 

[Langdon Alger]

I have unrealistic expectations about Ryan because I expect him to be one of our better players? Maybe he was never an elite player as you say, but he was a very good player in Anaheim. Four straight years with 30 plus goals, so he's a good player.

Even if he was making 5 million I would want more. The guy does very little for this team. I brought up his shot total, and you just acted like it was no big deal. Bad hand or not, averaging less than two shots a game is brutal considering the ice time he's given. If his hand is that bad then they should take him out until it gets better. I really don't know what kind of shape his hand is in and I'm guessing you dont either, so stop making excuses for him.

Bottom line I expect more from him, and so do you as you said in your post. That doesn't mean I have crazy, unrealistic expectations. Maybe he will never score 30 again, but 25 should be attainable with his skill set, linemates and minutes played right?

 

[Sensinitis]

His shot is noticeably weaker now. I rarely ever see him get a clean hard shot off.

Yeah at this point I don't think he's a good sniper anymore... If he has lots of time and space to shoot or one time it sure, but even then nothing special.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

It is not about how many points Ryan is or has scored. It's his style of play which just isn't cutting it, it doesn't gel with this team's style of play and certainty isn't working with Turris and Dzingle. He lacks intensity, plays soft, is very weak along the boards and is always falling down.

He has a lethal shot and some slick hands, but we just never get to see that much anymore.

This is the key right here.

Ryan hustles for a couple shifts per game, but the rest of the time, he isn't noticeable at all. Doing the "little things" well doesn't cut it for a guy playing in the top 6 and getting paid a huge contract.

I have come to the opinion that Ryan is not passionate about playing hockey. IMO he does not love the game. He has talent but not a burning desire for the game. That can't be fixed.

Quite possible. That situation growing up with his mother sacrificing so much just so he could play. Kinda hard for a kid to say eeeh, I don't have a passion for this to his mom. Also explains why he doesn't put in the off-ice work required to be at the top level.

 

[Stylizer1]

Maybe because his first 3 seasons he ran out of steam that now they are playing him less so he will actually have some juice left when we need him.

 

[jbeck5]

Maybe because his first 3 seasons he ran out of steam that now they are playing him less so he will actually have some juice left when we need him.

I highly doubt he's been playing lazy so that he supercharges his battery and comes out flying. I don't see it.

 

[Stylizer1]

I highly doubt he's been playing lazy so that he supercharges his battery and comes out flying. I don't see it.

So you're saying their is no hope?

 

[jbeck5]

So you're saying their is no hope?

Never say never. It's just not looking good.

He doesn't ever try.

The effort is night and day when comparing him to other players.

Other players jump on loose pucks and they're going all out. Ryan will stumble on a lose puck and glide .

I guarantee anyone who's played a high level of hockey knows you create the most offense when you're always keeping your feet moving and trying to expose defenseman caught flat footed. Ryan does not do this and won't start producing big numbers until he does this.

Talk to any NHL player or coach and they'll tell you how important your first 3-4 steps are to getting up to speed.

You'll notice all the hard workers on the sens pump as hard and as fast as they can for the first few steps because that is one of the biggest factors in being effective with the puck.

Ryan doesn't do this. You'll see him pump his legs one shift. It could be 8 games before you see him pump his legs like his life depended on it again. Yet other sens players do it every shift. Every time they stop and start. Not Ryan. He coasts.

Until he decides he wants to skate hard, he won't be effective.

What's missing from Ryan's game is what was stopping spezza from being a a top 5 center. You'd see them pump their legs here and there and create highlight reel plays...Followed by much of their play where you're wondering why they arent skating like they did last week when they went end to end. It's a lack of intensity. It's a big part of the zibanejad/brassard deal. Brassard is always moving his legs. Zibanejad is often gliding.

This isn't to be confused with how some players take long strides and some small strides. It's comparing a player going balls out(and us realizing he's capable of it) only to see him not do it 90% of the time.

We've all seen zibanejad, spezza, and Ryan use effort and look like monsters out there. But we've also seen them not use that same effort much more.

We need to try to get away from the players that try when they feel like it.

We never saw alfredsson or hossa give effort and create plays followed by not caring for most of the game. They always played the game hard.

 

[operasen]

So you're saying their is no hope?

Hope or not, it's not happened here. Its time to move on. With MacArthur's money that's almost 12K we could spend on two stud players instead of an inconsistent, careless shadow, and an injured (should not come back) winger.

The Ryan experiment is over - we know what we have, and its not good enough. Cut bait. Get a trade done, or just give him away at the deadline for a pick. Enough is enough. Excuses don't matter, they are excuses.

 

[Answer]

Yeah, why don't you tell the coach. Maybe he doesn't realize it but if you tell him he will be like "OH, I should play him more".

Just because a player scores 50 goals one season and 1 the next doesn't make him a 25 goal player. Stats are great for proving a point but the point is he is not playing and what caused that?

Players just fall off sometimes and just because you can compare them to other players doesn't make the argument less valid.

Like I have always said he disappeared at the end of each season and was never as vital of a player that contributed to our success. Ryan is taking a spot on this team that could easily be filled by someone half the price.

Coaches know that if the bench him they will probably lose him even more, He seems like that guy.

You're right, it doesn't. It makes him a 25.50 goal player

 

[Stylizer1]

Never say never. It's just not looking good.

He doesn't ever try.

The effort is night and day when comparing him to other players.

Other players jump on loose pucks and they're going all out. Ryan will stumble on a lose puck and glide .

I guarantee anyone who's played a high level of hockey knows you create the most offense when you're always keeping your feet moving and trying to expose defenseman caught flat footed. Ryan does not do this and won't start producing big numbers until he does this.

Talk to any NHL player or coach and they'll tell you how important your first 3-4 steps are to getting up to speed.

You'll notice all the hard workers on the sens pump as hard and as fast as they can for the first few steps because that is one of the biggest factors in being effective with the puck.

Ryan doesn't do this. You'll see him pump his legs one shift. It could be 8 games before you see him pump his legs like his life depended on it again. Yet other sens players do it every shift. Every time they stop and start. Not Ryan. He coasts.

Until he decides he wants to skate hard, he won't be effective.

What's missing from Ryan's game is what was stopping spezza from being a a top 5 center. You'd see them pump their legs here and there and create highlight reel plays...Followed by much of their play where you're wondering why they arent skating like they did last week when they went end to end. It's a lack of intensity. It's a big part of the zibanejad/brassard deal. Brassard is always moving his legs. Zibanejad is often gliding.

This isn't to be confused with how some players take long strides and some small strides. It's comparing a player going balls out(and us realizing he's capable of it) only to see him not do it 90% of the time.

We've all seen zibanejad, spezza, and Ryan use effort and look like monsters out there. But we've also seen them not use that same effort much more.

We need to try to get away from the players that try when they feel like it.

We never saw alfredsson or hossa give effort and create plays followed by not caring for most of the game. They always played the game hard.

This is exactly what I noticed at the practice yesterday. It looked like he didn't want to exert himself. 3 on 2's, he wasn't trying to make the D work. On a day were you are rewarding kids to watch a practice and there are camera's filming you would think that was the day to look good.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Hope or not, it's not happened here. Its time to move on. With MacArthur's money that's almost 12K we could spend on two stud players instead of an inconsistent, careless shadow, and an injured (should not come back) winger.

The Ryan experiment is over - we know what we have, and its not good enough. Cut bait. Get a trade done, or just give him away at the deadline for a pick. Enough is enough. Excuses don't matter, they are excuses.

I don't know about cut bait he's still points in the bank. If it's a decent trade fine but you know what you're getting with Ryan. Decent top 6 guy. Just because he hasn't met expectations doesn't mean he should be shipped off.

Then again. We may need that money.

 

[DrunkUncleDenis]

New thread: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=127850937#post127850937