Rumor: Bobby Ryan not exempt from expansion draft | Ryan talk

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Stylizer1

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The Ryan signing was about saving face. When it was time to resign him I didn't think he deserved 7.25m but letting him leave would of looked even worse so you take the lesser of 2 evils. Ryan only ever looked good playing with Turris and Mac. He didn't gel with Spezza nor with Zibby and hasn't improved playing with Brassard. That is the problem. We let go of 2 players who were better than Ryan because of Ryan and replaced them with one inferior player.
 

Stylizer1

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The idea that her is "good enough" on some nights just does not cut it. He was signed to be an impact, difference maker. He is not this at all.

The comment that other teams do not consider how to shut him down rings loudly.

We need to get out from under his contract as soon as possible. Send a message to the others as well that the country club is closed and the dressing room is a place of intense business.

Imagine Ryan's (7,250,000) and MacArthur's (4,650,000) money spent on two other more dominant players at 6M each. Or one mega-star (Tavares type) and a No4 D. Do that and we can be serious contenders.
1375389042.gif
 

danielpalfredsson

youtube dot com /watch?v=CdqMZ_s7Y6k
Aug 14, 2013
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The Ryan signing was about saving face. When it was time to resign him I didn't think he deserved 7.25m but letting him leave would of looked even worse so you take the lesser of 2 evils. Ryan only ever looked good playing with Turris and Mac. He didn't gel with Spezza nor with Zibby and hasn't improved playing with Brassard. That is the problem. We let go of 2 players who were better than Ryan because of Ryan and replaced them with one inferior player.

Ryan was on pace for something like 28 goals and 56 points during what ended up as his contract year. This was despite playing a big chunk of the season injured before being shut down when Ottawa decided playoffs were out of reach. First half of the season prior to getting injured he was even better. There certainly was a dynamic where Ottawa couldn't afford to let Ryan walk, but he was everything he was advertised to be in his first season which was the one that earned him his extension as like most big stars he signed a year early. He signed at the perfect time before the CAD tanked which meant the cap outlook was much more optimistic. Go look at some of the UFA year contracts signed around that time. Over 7M at the time was basically what 6M is now to UFA forwards.

Ryan has been a disappointment since signing that deal, but I hate the revisionist history that the contract was a pure panic move. They signed arguably their best forward from the previous year to a market value contract extension when their forward depth looked like this without him.....Turris, Zibanejad, Michalek, Chiasson, and then a mishmash of guys like Condra, Smith pre-awesome, Greening, Neil. Stone/Hoffman had yet to break out when he signed.
 
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jbeck5

Registered User
Jan 26, 2009
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The idea that her is "good enough" on some nights just does not cut it. He was signed to be an impact, difference maker. He is not this at all.

The comment that other teams do not consider how to shut him down rings loudly.

We need to get out from under his contract as soon as possible. Send a message to the others as well that the country club is closed and the dressing room is a place of intense business.

Imagine Ryan's (7,250,000) and MacArthur's (4,650,000) money spent on two other more dominant players at 6M each. Or one mega-star (Tavares type) and a No4 D. Do that and we can be serious contenders.

Agreed. The fact we're a budget team means we need to get value even more than other teams if we're to outcompete them and win a championship.

This doesn't mean overpay for the top ufas. But it does mean not resigning guys like Phillips or Neil that we've done in the past and instead going for the average roster players for a few million that can make us ice top 3rd and 4th lines.

If we can't get the top guys here, we have to make sure we have top bottom lines to make up for it.

That means if we can't have 3 legit first liners, we need to make up for it by having two 3rd lines instead of a 3rd and a 4th line. We should have no problem attracting good 3rd liners who can get 30 points and be good defensively.

This means when Neil's contract is up, you don't re-sign him. You let him go and use 3 million on a top 3rd liner who can double Neil's production and play on the penalty kill and can keep up with the play and maintain possession.

As for Ryan, the last few years he's produced like an OK first liner for half the year and a 4th liner for the second half equalling inconsistent second line numbers. That deserves about 5 million. So he's a couple million overpaid other years.

This year he's pretty much produced like a third liner while not bringing any of the intangibles. Essentially he's worth 2.5 this year so far. Essentially 5 million overpaid.

We can't afford this. He's like Ryan Shannon. Not good enough for the top 6. Not the type of player we want in our bottom 6. Only we didn't pay Ryan Shannon 7 million.
 
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starling

Registered User
Nov 7, 2010
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Ottawa
The idea that her is "good enough" on some nights just does not cut it. He was signed to be an impact, difference maker. He is not this at all.

The comment that other teams do not consider how to shut him down rings loudly.

We need to get out from under his contract as soon as possible. Send a message to the others as well that the country club is closed and the dressing room is a place of intense business.

Imagine Ryan's (7,250,000) and MacArthur's (4,650,000) money spent on two other more dominant players at 6M each. Or one mega-star (Tavares type) and a No4 D. Do that and we can be serious contenders.

Yeah that would've been cool but that's not how it works.
Most likely you would end up with another David Clarkson, Dion Phaneuf or Travis Zajac.
 

JD1

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Sep 12, 2005
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This year he's pretty much produced like a third liner while not bringing any of the intangibles. Essentially he's worth 2.5 this year so far. Essentially 5 million overpaid.

posts like this just make me shake my head

why let reality get in the way of an opinion. The other day in this thread I posted this

I got thinking more about Bobby Ryan, his contract and his utilization

In 2015 / 16 Ryan's stats

ice time 26th
points 14th
PP ice time 12th
PP points 15th

pretty much spot on middle of the pack 1st line right winger numbers, arguably he was outproducing his icetime a bit

in 2016 / 17

ice time 43rd
points 42nd
PP ice time 37th
PP points 40th

pretty much spot on middle of the pack 2nd line numbers and his production is clearly in line with his utilization

it is clearly clearly evident that his utilization and his production are equal. He's being utilized at a second line rate with second PP ice time and that is what he is producing.

last year, spot on middle of the pack production for first liners.

All right winger data.

He isn't producing at his contract level, he isn't being utilized at that level either. But he isn't producing like a 3rd liner and he isn't $ 5M overpaid.
 

jbeck5

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Jan 26, 2009
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posts like this just make me shake my head

why let reality get in the way of an opinion. The other day in this thread I posted this



it is clearly clearly evident that his utilization and his production are equal. He's being utilized at a second line rate with second PP ice time and that is what he is producing.

last year, spot on middle of the pack production for first liners.

All right winger data.

He isn't producing at his contract level, he isn't being utilized at that level either. But he isn't producing like a 3rd liner and he isn't $ 5M overpaid.

Posts like this just make me shake my head.

He's on pace for mid to high 30s in points. That's not second line numbers. He's on pace for less than guys like havlat or Fisher got playing our our third line.

Ryan is 174th in forward scoring. That's basically your average 6th forward on an average team.

So yes, he's several million overpaid. You can find guys who get 30 points, but would be much better defensively, physically , and can skate for half the money Ryan gets...Or maybe a third if you're lucky.

You also have to stop thinking someone putting up league average numbers for their position is good. If we're to be a top team we have to put players in a position where they can be near the best. And that means not overpaying.
 
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Answer

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Dec 17, 2006
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It is not about how many points Ryan is or has scored. It's his style of play which just isn't cutting it, it doesn't gel with this team's style of play and certainty isn't working with Turris and Dzingle. He lacks intensity, plays soft, is very weak along the boards and is always falling down.

He has a lethal shot and some slick hands, but we just never get to see that much anymore.
 

LuckyPierre

Registered User
Jul 1, 2010
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The production/TOI argument in support of Ryan's play doesn't jive.

His play has not justified more usage and minutes. It'd be one thing if he was putting up top numbers while playing middle six minutes. He'd be exploiting lesser matchups and earning increased usage. As it stands he's a middling player producing middling numbers playing middling minutes, while earning top end money.

I still hold out hope that he'll round into form and produce against lesser defensive competition come playoff time (knock on wood). Time will tell, but I still think he's useful for the roster this year, and that he's been trending up as of late.
 

Stylizer1

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Jun 12, 2009
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Ottabot City
It is not about how many points Ryan is or has scored. It's his style of play which just isn't cutting it, it doesn't gel with this team's style of play and certainty isn't working with Turris and Dzingle. He lacks intensity, plays soft, is very weak along the boards and is always falling down.

He has a lethal shot and some slick hands, but we just never get to see that much anymore.
I stumbled upon the Sens practice today by accident and watched the first 30 minutes. As they were just skating around the ice and shooting on an empty net I paid close attention to Ryan. He practiced as hard as he plays in games. Zero intensity until the 3 on 2's and then was just trying to keep up with the play. Everyone was looking sharp in those drills putting in effort. At ice level the speed is crazy.
 

JD1

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Sep 12, 2005
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Posts like this just make me shake my head.

He's on pace for mid to high 30s in points. That's not second line numbers. He's on pace for less than guys like havlat or Fisher got playing our our third line.

Ryan is 174th in forward scoring. That's basically your average 6th forward on an average team.

So yes, he's several million overpaid. You can find guys who get 30 points, but would be much better defensively, physically , and can skate for half the money Ryan gets...Or maybe a third if you're lucky.

You also have to stop thinking someone putting up league average numbers for their position is good. If we're to be a top team we have to put players in a position where they can be near the best. And that means not overpaying.

as I posted the other day, and updating now for current data.

Using NHL.com stats for right wingers

Ryan is
toi = 45th
points = 43rd
ppg = 44th
pp points = 47th


so he's right in the middle of the pack as a 2nd line winger in terms of productivity and he's right in the middle of the pack in terms of utilization.

as for your bolded statement, I don't think at all. Ryan is not producing at his contract level but he is producing in line with his utilization. The point that I'm making is that it is difficult for him to be producing numbers that are significantly above his current production without changing his utilization. In his previous years in Ottawa, when used in a more typical 1st line role, he produced at that level.

I also think that Ryan's biggest problem right now is that he can't shoot. Someone a few posts ago stated he has a lethal shot. IMO he used to have a lethal shot. I haven't seen it really at all this year. He broke fingers again this year. He keeps getting hit with pucks. He just can't shoot like he used to and I'm sure that takes getting used to.

He certainly isn't living up to his contract but he isn't a total disaster and he isn't producing at a bottom 6 rate. I'm hopeful things get better for him, he's looked better to me the past 10 - 15 and hopefully he can keep it going.
 

Sens of Anarchy

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Jul 9, 2013
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I have come to the opinion that Ryan is not passionate about playing hockey. IMO he does not love the game. He has talent but not a burning desire for the game. That can't be fixed.
 

jbeck5

Registered User
Jan 26, 2009
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as I posted the other day, and updating now for current data.

Using NHL.com stats for right wingers

Ryan is
toi = 45th
points = 43rd
ppg = 44th
pp points = 47th


so he's right in the middle of the pack as a 2nd line winger in terms of productivity and he's right in the middle of the pack in terms of utilization.

as for your bolded statement, I don't think at all. Ryan is not producing at his contract level but he is producing in line with his utilization. The point that I'm making is that it is difficult for him to be producing numbers that are significantly above his current production without changing his utilization. In his previous years in Ottawa, when used in a more typical 1st line role, he produced at that level.

I also think that Ryan's biggest problem right now is that he can't shoot. Someone a few posts ago stated he has a lethal shot. IMO he used to have a lethal shot. I haven't seen it really at all this year. He broke fingers again this year. He keeps getting hit with pucks. He just can't shoot like he used to and I'm sure that takes getting used to.

He certainly isn't living up to his contract but he isn't a total disaster and he isn't producing at a bottom 6 rate. I'm hopeful things get better for him, he's looked better to me the past 10 - 15 and hopefully he can keep it going.

Looking at his ranking amongst forwards makes more sense as usage varies. You have centers playing wing, Lefts playing right and vice versa. He's 174th in scoring amongst forwards.

The top 180 are your top 6 forwards. He's literally a bottom end of 6th forwards in scoring on a team.

He's being paid to produce, doesn't bring the physicality or defensive play of other #6 forwards, and yet is getting outproduced by the average number 6 forward (~165th in scoring).

What is there to not be disappointed in Ryan?
 

danielpalfredsson

youtube dot com /watch?v=CdqMZ_s7Y6k
Aug 14, 2013
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Ryan's utilization is a chicken/egg type thing. He isn't producing at a top role because he isn't being given top minutes, but if he were to be given top minutes would he play to the level he needs to play in that role.

I've never been purely in favour of cutting bait on Ryan for the sake of doing so while making our team worse. But at the end of the day, if Guy Boucher isn't going to utilize him as a top offensive piece, there's no point in keeping him as a core guy, which is what he has to be when he is paid like a star.

Puempel is obviously a a different situation. But it's like, I thought Puempel might be able to carve out a role as a finisher if put with the right guys (I could be wrong) but theoretically if you're Dorion and you think this is a possibility, but you know he has no value via trade, and that Boucher won't ever use him this way, there's no point in wasting a roster spot on him. I don't know exactly how the coach/GM relationship works, but I would imagine Dorion can't just force Boucher to change his entire philosophy. So there's no point in keeping guys he isn't going to utilize if they are taking a space away from guys he will utilize.

Ryan is 8th in TOI amongst forwards last month. Do I believe he should be utilized in a greater role? Yes. Does Dorion believe that? Who knows? Maybe. But at the end of the day, he has to build around his coaches system, and even if Ryan were making only 5M, there wouldn't be much point devoting top 6 money to a guy the coach is going to use 8th and bordering on 9th from the bottom in the depth chart.

The situation is complicated, because Ryan will be hard to trade without taking something back. Maybe the situation improves with him and Boucher in the future.
 

JD1

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Sep 12, 2005
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ok then, look at his ice time amongst forwards.

NHL.com says it is 187th in the league in terms of average TOI
his PPG amongst all forwards is 171 PPG

again, it is the same....his productivity and his utilization reflects one another
 

Xspyrit

DJ Dorion
Jun 29, 2008
30,703
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Ryan has declined so much that we're now just happy when he makes a single nice play a game.

That's how much we have to dig to find the good in his play. I too can make a spin-o-rama no look pass and a few might connect.

I see several good plays every game (well outside of a few games where he is off, but happens to most players), I find that his passing is great. I watch the games without targeting anybody on the ice though, I notice all good and bad plays, and well everybody makes a ton of both.

Have I ever talked about the enormous bias on this board? :sarcasm:

tbh if we weren't a budget team i wouldnt be complaining this much, i guess it's my way of releasing my anger on the budget, instead of complaining directly towards that, im looking at players who are contributing significantly less than they're supposed to(especially relative to $$)

Ryan if he was paid correctly (~5.75) isn't the difference between having another good player on the team or not. This team has played 2 seasons in a row without Clarke MacArthur, a good all-around top-6 forward. To replace him and his ~4.5 salary, Sens are paying ~700 000$ for Wingels

For now, Ryan's money doesn't matter as there is nobody else to sign... Heck, with MacArthur out, the Sens are the 2nd lowest spending team in the NHL and are not even rebuilding anymore.

Yes Ryan is overpaid but the only person that it affects right now is Eugene Melnyk. If the Sens sign a big UFA in the off-season, then it becomes different because money will be needed (assuming they still don't spend to the cap) for next Turris, Stone and Karlsson contracts (but other contracts will be expiring so...)

I agreed with all of it. Ryan does sweet **** all out there on most nights. Not an impact player at all.

Just stop expecting Ryan to be an impact player. He is a top-6 forward. Forget the 7.25 cap hit and act like if he was paid 1.5 less

that statement right there is an oxymoron.

Apart from Okposo who probably has a couple peak years left, I can't think of any recent UFA that was in their prime when they signed a big UFA deal. Teams have reacted to the last CBA which lowered the UFA age by signing their top tier talent to long deals that cover off part of their RFA and part of their UFA years. You just don't see a lot of UFA players available that are in their prime...

I don't see why. I don't know if you have read a lot of my posts but if you know me as a poster, I always base myself on facts. The fact here is we haven't signed any UFA of note outside of Kovalev, Gonchar (both over 35 y/o) and MacArthur (a bit of a reclamation project) in a long time... Teams that are able to sign those valuable UFA have a clear advantage over the others. Just recently :

Alexander Radulov
Artami Panarin
Frans Nielsen
David Backes
Kyle Okposo
Milan Lucic
Eric Staal
David Perron
Andrej Sekera
Alex Goligoski
Keith Yandle

I'm getting very tired of this narrative. Not just from you, it gets repeated over and over on this board. Who are all these prime UFAs that are signing everywhere but Ottawa? The UFA market has been garbage for more than ten years now, almost all of them are overpaid mediocre players.

etc.

UFAs aren't the answer unless it's for a middle player for a couple of years. I see it as not that Ottawa can't attract the "prime" UFAs, they just choose not to get caught up in the nonsense and I'm perfectly fine with that.

See my response above. We had a good UFA signing in Clarke MacArthur but unfortunately he can't help anymore. I am not talking about Steven Stamkos here but if the Sens could sign a guy like Radulov or Stralman, I think it could help the team tremendously. Best teams in the NHL have at least 1 or 2 contracts like that.

The only guys on the actual team that we acquired like that are MacArthur (injured for 2 years), Kelly (had ties with the organization that drafted him) and Tom Pyatt. Just adding Radulov (and we easily have the cap space) :

Hoffman-Turris-Stone
Ryan-Brassard-Radulov
Smith-Pageau-Dzingel
Pyatt-Lazar-Wingels
Kelly/Neil

Methot-Karlsson
Phaneuf-Ceci
Claesson/Boro-Wideman

Anderson/Condon


Boom. Contender

I am not saying sign somebody for the sake of it. I am saying sign a player that will help out

No, he's guilty of not showing up every night. Look at a guy like Mark Stone. He's always doing something out there. Stealing pucks, generating chances, scoring goals, involved in the play. Do you see the same from Ryan?

Did you know he only has 72 shots on goal this year? 72! In 44 games. If you're happy with that, good for you. Your expectations are pretty low I guess.

lol, of course he has less shots than usual, he has played with one hand most of the season...

And yes Mark Stone is much more valuable but I'd say that Mark is borderline elite. Why are we comparing Ryan with elite players? Ryan has a style that hockey fans don't like but he does generate offense as well. Exactly like the pass he made to Hoffman last game. I have been noticing that kind of set ups all season long (except the stretch where he struggled the much with his injury, yes he was less effective)

Bobby Ryan is taking a lot of crap from this fanbase but in reality, the only thing he did is taking advantage of a small market Canadian team ready to overpay for his services instead of letting him walk for nothing to the UFA market. Just read the threads before Ryan signed an extension. People wanted Murray's head if Ryan was not re-signing.

What? Did you guys expected Ryan to sign 5 years for 5 millions a year? :laugh: :facepalm:

The only problem here is the way you guys can't grasp reality, and therefore have crazy unrealistic expectations. Bobby Ryan is a 6 M$ player. Blame Murray if you want but don't you think Ottawa didn't try to sign him at that amount? I am pretty sure it was "take it or leave it" from Ryan's camp. The NHL is a business and all players are a company in itself.

Now to end this post, from 2013 to 2016 (first 3 seasons with the Sens), Bobby Ryan finished 65th in the league with 9.04 Shots/60 (Hoffman is 18th, Turris is 143rd) among the 802 NHL players who played at least 500 minutes. That also sounds like 1st line forward.
 
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JD1

Registered User
Sep 12, 2005
15,988
9,554
Ryan's utilization is a chicken/egg type thing. He isn't producing at a top role because he isn't being given top minutes, but if he were to be given top minutes would he play to the level he needs to play in that role.

I've never been purely in favour of cutting bait on Ryan for the sake of doing so while making our team worse. But at the end of the day, if Guy Boucher isn't going to utilize him as a top offensive piece, there's no point in keeping him as a core guy, which is what he has to be when he is paid like a star.

Ryan is 8th in TOI amongst forwards last month. Do I believe he should be utilized in a greater role? Yes. Does Dorion believe that? Who knows? Maybe. But at the end of the day, he has to build around his coaches system, and even if Ryan were making only 5M, there wouldn't be much point devoting top 6 money to a guy the coach is going to use 8th and bordering on 9th from the bottom in the depth chart.

The situation is complicated, because Ryan will be hard to trade without taking something back. Maybe the situation improves with him and Boucher in the future.

so this is a very good post

in Ryan's case the historical utilization (in Ottawa) as a top liner and the productivity as a top line player were there in his previous seasons in Ottawa. Mid tier 1st line utilization, mid tier 1st line productivity.

This year, the utilization drops....so does the productivity. One follows the other.

I think the bolded statement is the reality of the situation.
 

Langdon Alger

Registered User
Apr 19, 2006
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I'm comparing Ryan to an elite player because he's been paid like one. I hate this "just pretend he's making less money" attitude. He's not being paid less. He's one of the highest paid players on the team, and if he is as you say playing with one hand, then maybe he shouldn't play until his hand is better because he's not helping the team.

Some of the responses in this thread are laughable.
 

JD1

Registered User
Sep 12, 2005
15,988
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Xspyrit

what I called an oxymoron was you using the phrase

"UFAs in their prime"

UFAs aren't in their prime.....they get signed to long term deals and are in their declining years....which is the situation with Ryan
 

Langdon Alger

Registered User
Apr 19, 2006
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12,912
Sorry for expecting a guy with a 7.25 million dollar cap hit to be an impact player. My mistake I guess.

I'm happy for you that you're satisfied with one pass he made last game. I guess that justifies his high salary. Hey everybody Bobby Ryan mad a nice pass! Let's shower him with praise!
 
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jbeck5

Registered User
Jan 26, 2009
16,218
3,239
Ryan's utilization is a chicken/egg type thing. He isn't producing at a top role because he isn't being given top minutes, but if he were to be given top minutes would he play to the level he needs to play in that role.

I've never been purely in favour of cutting bait on Ryan for the sake of doing so while making our team worse. But at the end of the day, if Guy Boucher isn't going to utilize him as a top offensive piece, there's no point in keeping him as a core guy, which is what he has to be when he is paid like a star.

Puempel is obviously a a different situation. But it's like, I thought Puempel might be able to carve out a role as a finisher if put with the right guys (I could be wrong) but theoretically if you're Dorion and you think this is a possibility, but you know he has no value via trade, and that Boucher won't ever use him this way, there's no point in wasting a roster spot on him. I don't know exactly how the coach/GM relationship works, but I would imagine Dorion can't just force Boucher to change his entire philosophy. So there's no point in keeping guys he isn't going to utilize if they are taking a space away from guys he will utilize.

Ryan is 8th in TOI amongst forwards last month. Do I believe he should be utilized in a greater role? Yes. Does Dorion believe that? Who knows? Maybe. But at the end of the day, he has to build around his coaches system, and even if Ryan were making only 5M, there wouldn't be much point devoting top 6 money to a guy the coach is going to use 8th and bordering on 9th from the bottom in the depth chart.

The situation is complicated, because Ryan will be hard to trade without taking something back. Maybe the situation improves with him and Boucher in the future.

But does he deserve more time? I see dzingel create more using his speed. I give him more ice over Bobby. I see pageau shut people down and make plays. I give him more ice time over Bobby. I see Smith create offense and finish checks. I give him more ice time over Bobby.

Bobby is doing nothing to deserve more ice time. He's not making things happen like the other 3 middle 6 forwards I named (guys he's competing with for more ice time)
 
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