Bobby Baun

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by Leaf Lander, Oct 8, 2006.

  1. Leaf Lander

    Leaf Lander Registered User Sponsor

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    Don cherry brought alot of attention to Bobby Baun tongiht on HNIC so I thoguht I would start this thread about the great leafs defenceman Bobby Baun,



    who saw him play?
    what did you think of his game?
    what was his most important skills?
    was he a #1 defenceman?
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2006
  2. Lowetide

    Lowetide Registered User

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    If Jason Smith were Marc Andre Bergeron's size he'd be Bob Baun. He was a fine, fine player.
     
  3. Leaf Lander

    Leaf Lander Registered User Sponsor

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    nhl players were smaller then Baun was 5'9 180
    so thats about average,
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2006
  4. Bluesfan1981

    Bluesfan1981 Registered User

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    I never saw him play, but from what I've heard and read he was an excellent player. A borderline Hall of Famer, I think. Along with Tim Horton, Allan Stanley, and Carl Brewer, he was one of the four great defenseman on the great Toronto teams of the early to mid 60s. He was a tough defensive defenseman. He was certainly a winning player. He scored the game winning goal in overtime of Game 6 of the 1964 Stanley Cup Finals while playing with a broken ankle. His team was inspired by that and they won Game 7 and the Stanley Cup.
     
  5. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    Cherry in his ravings on Coaches Corner is getting more and more deranged. The misprounciation of Jagr's name and Salming's was fully intentional and an embarressment to CBC and Cherry himself.

    That said Cherry made a good point. The Leafs should have honoured Baun as well when they had their opening night number retirement ceremonies. I can't understand why they did not do that.
     
  6. Wetcoaster

    Wetcoaster Guest

    I saw Boomer play. I started following the Leafs in 1958 when he was in his second full year year. In 1971-72 his last full season in the NHL he 74 games and was +18 on a not very good Leafs team. The next year he fractured a vertebrae in his neck in game 5 and that would be his career.

    His game? Look up the term "hard rock" in the dictionary and there would be a picture of #21. Also check out "irrepressible".

    He was the epitome of the defensive defenceman and his best goal total in a season was 8 goals which makes it sort of ironic that his "broken ankle" goal in the Cup finals is one of the most famous goals of all time. However to me what was even more amazing than coming back in that game as he was likely running on adrenalin at that point, was that two nights later he would play Game 7 and help the Leafs win the Cup without missing a shift. He would spend the next 10 weeks in a cast as the high ankle break healed.

    He would have been a Number 1/2 Dman in today's game IMHO. In those days on the Leafs the pairings of Horton/Stanley and Brewer/Baun were sort of 1 and 1A with Horton and Brewer supplying the offense from the back end and Stanley and Baun the solid defence.

    I had the chance several summers back to spend a couple of days (and a couple of rounds of golf) with Bobby at a resort north of Toronto and he regaled us with many stories of the Golden Age of the NHL. He is one of the truly nice people and puts on no airs - probably because his wife would not tolerate it.:D

    His two most lasting accomplishments IMHO were getting Gordie Howe a raise and beginning the process of getting the players a proper accounting of their pension funds.

    In 1968 Baun was traded by Oakland (who had claimed him in the expansion draft from the Leafs) to the Wings and told Howe he was responsible for suppressing salaries league-wide for years because he was taking so little from the Wings. Howe responded that he was the highest paid player on the Wings at which point Bobby told him what he (Howe) was making ($45,000 per) and then told Howe that he had just signed for $67,000. Howe was incensed and demanded and got a raise to $100,000. Unbeknownst to either of them Baun's old D partner, Carl Brewer had just been signed to a $126,000 a year contract by the Wings.

    After his retirement Baun became very suspicious of what was going on with the NHL players' pension fund. After 17 years and 964 games his pension was a paltry $7,622 per year.

    He spent over $100,000 of his own money investigating with the help of a Toronto actuary who told him, "It's a scandal, a criminal scandal". And it was as the courts would later rule.

    Baun would go on to set up the NHL Alumni Association to continue the pension fund investigations but he experienced stonewalling from the owners and pension administrators and a lot of resistance from players who would rather play than learn about the ins and outs of the financial part of the game and just wanted Bobby Baun to stop rocking the boat (sound familiar?).

    Baun would finally give up in frustration and his buddy Carl Brewer (with Gordie Howe and Bobby Hull amongst others) would take over the lead eventually resulting in the NHL owners being held to account for the breach of trust and expose the collusion of Alan Eagleson in the pension fund shenanigans. The owners were using the players' surplus funds for various unauthorized purposes including paying the owners' share of the contributions (a so-called "contribution holiday") and using the All-Star games money to pay themselves "administration fees".
    http://www.andrewsstarspage.com/CBA/11-16cba.htm

    If you want some more of the details check out the book "Net Worth: Exploding the Myths of Pro Hockey" by David Cruise and Alison Griffiths

    For their work in exposing the fraud of the NHL owners both Baun and Brewer should be in the HHOF - as builders if not players.

    BTW Bobby has lost virtually all his hearing in both ears. He is a corporate spokesman for a hearing aid company (Widex Canada) and travels around the country talking to people about hearing loss. He delights in pulling out his digital hearing aids and showing them off. They are custom designed - one has a blue maple leaf and the other as red maple leaf.
    http://chealth.canoe.ca/channel_hea...hannel_id=165&channel_id=165&relation_id=8144

    There is an autobiography (with Anne Logan) titled "Lowering the Boom - the Bobby Baun Story".
    http://www.amazon.com/Lowering-Boom...m_fullview_prod_4/102-0302079-5745741?ie=UTF8
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 9, 2006
  7. ClassicHockey

    ClassicHockey Registered User

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    Superb post.

    The only thing I could add was that Baun was one of the most courageous players the Leafs had in the 60's. For a time, Baun was the only player to stand up to John Ferguson. And, when Baun left the Leafs the first time, the Leafs' downhill slide started.
    It was at the point where teams like Boston were bulking up and playing the intimidation game. The Leafs lost a lot of aggressiveness when Baun left and it showed in their overall play.


     
  8. pappyline

    pappyline Registered User

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    "His two most lasting accomplishments IMHO were getting Gordie Howe a raise and beginning the process of getting the players a proper accounting of their pension funds."

    Not a Leaf fan in the 60's but sure have a better appreciation of Baun. Had heard the Howe story which really shows how sleazy Detroit management (Bruce Norris & Jack Adams) was in those days. Gordie was the most loyal guy ever & they screwed him.

    Didn't realize Baun's role in the NHL pension issue. He certainly deserves a lot of ctedit.
     
  9. Northern Dancer

    Northern Dancer The future ain't what it used to be.

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    GREAT POST !!!!! :bow: :bow: :bow:

    I saw Baun play a lot, he could hit like Scott Stevens !! As for his fighting, he always showed up for the fight, he was fearless but in reality I do not think he even tied a fight in his career. But that never ever stopped him for wading in for his team-mates. Leafs should honour his number !!!
     
  10. Leaf Lander

    Leaf Lander Registered User Sponsor

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    The leafs official site even mentioned bobby baun as the other #21

    so i imagune he will be honoured him and keon would be nice to have them both in the fold! We need more legends at the aCC


    It would be great to se Bobby Baun and Davey Keon honoured together.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2006
  11. ClassicHockey

    ClassicHockey Registered User

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    Baun is a member of the Leafs alumni and is very active in the charitable causes of the association. And for many years, Baun held his own golf tournament to raise money for charities.

    It will be interesting to see where Baun is rated in the 'Top 100 Leafs' book that will be out next year.

    I would say that Bob Baun won most of his fights when he was younger. And since he mostly fought all the heavyweights, he was bound to lose a few.

    The Leafs would have had Keon back in the fold if they had retired all those sweater #'s instead of 'honouring' them.

     
  12. Leaf Lander

    Leaf Lander Registered User Sponsor

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    interesting i just made a top 100 leafs list myself and posted it on theleafs board.

    Mine needs a little work.
     
  13. ClassicHockey

    ClassicHockey Registered User

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    You were doing fine until the you named Tie Domi and then some present Leafs.


     
  14. Leaf Lander

    Leaf Lander Registered User Sponsor

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    my aim was a top 50 list.

    Ill work on it.

    check on my leafs time line

    http://groups.msn.com/TORONTOMAPLELEAFFANSZONE/timeline.msnw

    each link wil lshow about 20 to 30 of the best leafs from each decade.
     
  15. ClassicHockey

    ClassicHockey Registered User

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  16. Leaf Lander

    Leaf Lander Registered User Sponsor

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    I consider it a lonlien library
    its a quiet site i save a lot of useful info there soem of it i rewrite but alot of the info there came from others.Since im too young to know who alot of theoldplayers are. But i lovereading what my elderswrite:)

    Im pretty good from 1980 on.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2006
  17. Yes Im Peter Ing

    Yes Im Peter Ing Registered User

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    So it was the issue of honouring vs. retiring numbers that turned Keon sour on the Leaf organization?

    I've heard a number of different stories.
     
  18. ClassicHockey

    ClassicHockey Registered User

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    I know Dave Keon a bit and he came to talk to our group a few weeks ago. I posted the response below because people were disliking Keon because they felt he owed it to the fans to come back. The only thing that reporters in Toronto can see is controversy and Harold Ballard as the reason.
    ================================================

    First of all, to me, its absurd that anyone thinks that Dave Keon owes anyone anything at all. Keon played his heart out for the team and the fans. Now, in retirement, he wishes to avoid the limelight. He still makes appearances for fans and he comes a long way from Florida to do that. How can he blamed for that?

    Keon was asked about why he doesn't come back to the Leafs. He genuinely answered saying that he has come back three times - an old-timer game, once with Don Giffen and once in Steve Stavros box (which was a surprise). I read that to mean that he has tried to come back. He also said pointedly, that it makes him uncomfortable. Well, I know myself when I've had to return to places I haven't been for awhile, that it can be uncomfortable. Its certainly a plausible explanation. My impression after hearing Keon's voice and seeing his facial expression, was that he was sincere. He actually was telling us the reason why he doesn't come back! Many people do not care to be put in the spotlight. Why should Keon be any different? I'm not saying that would be the entire reason for his isolation but it is definitely a factor.

    He didn't mention Ballard or the Leafs bad treatment as the reason. If I remember right, that came from a follow up question. After all the great service he gave the Leafs, they treated him shamefully on two occasions - when Ballard wouldn't sign him in 1975 and when Jim Gregory, acting as a proxy for Ballard maybe, demanded a first round pick from the Islanders for Keon. Getting anything for Keon would have been a gift but no, the Leafs got greedy. You see, Keon was not treated badly because of the business of hockey but because of pure spite. Keon was hurt and if anyone can think of that type of thing happening to them, then that hurt lasts a long time. But it may not be Ballard that Keon sees as part of the reason he doesn't come back, its the Leaf brand, the team, the organization. I don't believe newspaper writers who are looking for an angle and use Keon to take shots at the Leafs. I don't think I've ever read where Keon actually says he won't return because of Ballard. Has anyone? Reporters can do a lot of damage by their interpretations. All that does is drive Keon further away. And I don't blame him.


    Now with the sweater issue, it seems to me that he tried to break down the barrier and was going to return if the Leafs retired the sweaters instead of honouring them. The Leaf braintrust conferred last year and decided against it. Other teams, including the Montreal Canadiens truly honour their greats by taking the jersey numbers out of circulation. I'm with Keon on this one. Who is being spiteful here anyways?

    And I'll bet (actually I know) that the other Leafs who had their numbers 'honoured' and took part in the ceremony didn't agree with the policy either. You can be darn sure that Keon is not making this stand for himself but rather for his teammates and other Leaf greats. It is not a selfish thing. He told us that he's embarrassed for Kelly and Salming. And he's right. He's not just thinking of himself. He is a principled guy and sticks to his beliefs.

    Of all the Leaf alumni Ive got to know, Dave Keon has the best ability to remember events and details of past games and events. I sat beside him on monday night when he watched the video I put together. I watched his expressions and he was truly happy. I think that he got so attached to the Leafs when he played, that when he was wronged, it affected him more than other players that didn't care as much.

    So, I wouldn't be too hard on Dave Keon. He says he didn't feel comfortable when he did return. I believe him.

    Keon wants the Leafs to properly honour the great Leafs. And I feel he is correct in that thinking.

    Keon also doesn't owe anyone anything. That makes no sense at all.



     
  19. Northern Dancer

    Northern Dancer The future ain't what it used to be.

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    Classic Hockey:

    You say a lot of things above that are absolutely 'new' to the most ardent hockey fans. Why is this 'new' version of why Keon will not return public? I remember recently they had a Captain's picture taken previous Leaf Captains and Keon failed to appear. He seems rather bitter towards the Leafs despite your version. This policy of honouring numbers and not retiring them was made many years ago not recently as you claim and is a bit of red herring. Does Dave take great pride that his number is retired in Hartford and would only be honoured in Toronto? (as is , Sittler, Mahovolich etc.)

    And for the record I also think Keon does owe Toronto fans something, it was not his fans that abandonded him, in fact there are 2 new generation of Leaf fans that idolize him despite not even being born when he retired.

    If Keon had any empathy at all for his beloved fans in Toronto he would return and allow them to honour him in regal style. I agree with the poster above that it would be a grand evening to have Baun and Keon honoured to-gether.
     
  20. ClassicHockey

    ClassicHockey Registered User

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    Sometimes the information isn't 'new' but merely corrections of things posted here.

    People will read your post and might blame Keon for not appearing at the 'Leaf Captains' when in fact he was there and participated to the fullest. You can look it up.

    Just like that poster from Sweden who claimed that Canada had all the advantages from rules, to officials and whatever because they hosted the Canada Cup. And posters here started to believe him without checking that the poster had no idea what he was talking about and that the rules were international and had neutral referees throughout.

    All I'm trying to do is correct any misconceptions.

    There was a reporter at this question and answer session given by Dave Keon. He chose to ignore what Keon was sincerely trying to say and went back to the same old hating Harold Ballard story with his editor making a headline to further inflame the readers.

    The problem with reporters is that they look for the sensational story and don't always seek the truth (because it may be too bland). The entire session was taped so there is no doubt of what Keon said. The reporter missed a good story by not pursuing the fact that Keon returned to watch a game with the Leaf owner of the time, Steve Stavro. No one knew that or if they did, didn't report it.

    No one tries to see Keon's side. He might view the 'honouring' of the jersey #'s as more of a publicity event by the Leafs more than anything else. And it probably is.

    Keon just wants to avoid the media circus that would happen for sure if he made a grand entrance back. How can you blame him for that? He says he feels 'uncomfortable' when he returns - and he has returned.

    Sometimes you get yourself into a situation where you need a way out. He truly believes that the Leaf greats should be properly honoured like they are in other cities. I find no fault in that. If the Leafs did really retire the jersey #'s, he made it known he would return. A year ago, the Leaf braintrust discussed it and decided against it. They want him back on their terms only.

    And the notion that Keon 'owes' something to his fans is just absurd. No person or hockey player owes anyone anything. He's not under contract to the Leafs or to the fans. When he played, he always gave it his best. What else can you ask for? But he does come back. He comes up from Florida and spends time with Leaf fans (for no compensation at all). He says he tried to come back. He doesn't like the media portaying him the way they have. Sure, there are lingering things that happened to him and he wasn't happy with. But how about looking at his side of things for a change?

    I talked to Dave Keon Jr. after the newpaper article and the resulting vitriol on the radio talk shows because of it. This time the Keon family was especially upset about it because Keon tried to explain his reasons. The media circus and the way they paint things only drives him away further.

    There are always two sides to a story.



     
  21. Leaf Lander

    Leaf Lander Registered User Sponsor

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    wonder if this would work.

    Retire a sweater for 30 yrs and no player can wear it again till 10 yrs after the death of the last leafs great who wore it.


    Keon can get his # retired and the leafs dont need to go into the triple digits. Dave has to realize that the leafs are going to be around for ever. Montreal could move to lousianna oneday! :D


    He is by far the best leaf ever to wear #14



    14

    Dave Andreychuk, Peter Backor, Andre Barbe, Charles Blair, George (Dusty) Blair, George Boothman, Gord Brydson, Red Carr, Murph Chamberlain, Robert Cimetta, Robert Copp, Harold Cotton, Brian Cullen, Miroslav Frycer, Bob Goldham, Bob Gracie, Harold Halderson, Hap Hamel, Ted Hampson, Darby Hendrickson, Jonas Hoglund, Buck Jones, Mike Kaszycki, Dave Keon, Craig Laughlin, Gerald Lowrey, Vic Lynn, Gus Marker, John McCreedy, John McLellan, Rudy Migay, Garry Monahan, Jim Morrison, Albert Pudas, Dave Reid, Rene Robert, Darryl Shannon, Jesse Spring, Matt Stajan, Bill Thoms, Dave Tomlinson, Stan Weir, Ron Wilson



    I see his side I woulkd love ot se the leafs get him back in the fold. I would love for him to have his sweater retired I woukd love ot se that for all the leafs but in the Big picture it doesmt work out long term. Thats sad for him and for leaf fans.
     
  22. Leaf Lander

    Leaf Lander Registered User Sponsor

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    made a lil bio from your posts about baun:D
     

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