Bob Cole Division Second Round: #1 Trail Smoke Eaters vs. #5 Toronto Maple Leafs

Leaf Lander

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How many does he have in the playoffs? Regular season numbers mean squat now. It's all about what they did in the playoffs. And Sundin's playoff record would be described as lukewarm at best. (74 points in 83 games, for a player with Sundin's skill and regular season portfolio, isn't spectacular).

he is a one man team and has no top talent linemates for more seasons then i woudl careto admit;)


hehas a ailig hip mogilny for 2 seasons anda 35 yrplus steve thomas

butno great talent in hsi prime like mats was.


sundin did go to quarter finals 3 times which intodays day n age isnttoo shabby i just hope he can get to the fimals once in my lifetime;)
 

Nalyd Psycho

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he always seems like a nice guy whenever i seen him on tv I never heard of him being a cancer till his goonery a few season past.

He seemed like a nice guy on TV? First I've heard of that. It was a joke since 2000 watching him swear constantly at the end of every shift. He was always rude and grumpy and had a really bad reputation with the local media from the moment a spotlight was on him. He's always had a bad attitude, it was just tolerated when he was producing.
 

Frightened Inmate #2

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you...can't be serious. Belfour and Joseph looked good BECAUSE of the defence they played behind in Toronto?!

You, sir, just blew my mind.

It must be opposite day today, because I'm pretty sure they looked good IN SPITE of that mighty Maple Leaf defence corps, featuring such defensive stallwarts as McCabe, Berg, Cross, Erikson, Housley, Belak, and a 100 year old Jyrkki "oh **** I fell over again" Lumme.

Not only was there poor personnel, but Pat Quinn had no concept of a defensive system whatsoever. Those Leaf teams just went for it all game long, knowing that Cujo and Belfour would keep them in the game. Look at how awesome the team was last season, when Belfour lost all his talent over the lockout (probably in a poker game). The Leaf roster is essentially the same, and they go from 2nd in the conference to missing the playoffs.

So you are stating that Belfour didn't benifit from playing behind what I would still consider an elite team in Toronto? You know what every team has poor defensive players on it's roster (even the one game of Phil Housley). I stand by my assertion that Belfour was a huge benefactor of the Toronto Maple Leafs play. Even in 2003-04 the Maple Leafs were average in goals against per game. 2002-03 roughly the same once again.

Belfour was able to win games in large part because there was an offense that would be able to score 3+ goals per game on a given night.

As I said I don't think he is a bad goaltender by any stretch of the imagination but I don't really think that he is a starter in an all time draft
 

arrbez

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Jun 2, 2004
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So you are stating that Belfour didn't benifit from playing behind what I would still consider an elite team in Toronto? You know what every team has poor defensive players on it's roster (even the one game of Phil Housley). I stand by my assertion that Belfour was a huge benefactor of the Toronto Maple Leafs play. Even in 2003-04 the Maple Leafs were average in goals against per game. 2002-03 roughly the same once again.

Belfour was able to win games in large part because there was an offense that would be able to score 3+ goals per game on a given night.

I'm just stating that I don't think you fully appreciate how poor those teams were defensively. Belfour/Cujo standing on their head was actually part of the game plan uner Pat Quinn, and the team fell apart when it didn't happen.

I'm not saying Belfour is one of the better goalies in this draft. He's a HOFer, but at the lower end for goalies. However, he was getting anything but a free ride from the team in front of him.
 

Leaf Lander

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So you are stating that Belfour didn't benifit from playing behind what I would still consider an elite team in Toronto? You know what every team has poor defensive players on it's roster (even the one game of Phil Housley). I stand by my assertion that Belfour was a huge benefactor of the Toronto Maple Leafs play. Even in 2003-04 the Maple Leafs were average in goals against per game. 2002-03 roughly the same once again.

Belfour was able to win games in large part because there was an offense that would be able to score 3+ goals per game on a given night.

As I said I don't think he is a bad goaltender by any stretch of the imagination but I don't really think that he is a starter in an all time draft

2002-03 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 62 0 2 24 3738 141 4 7 2.26 37 20 5 1675 0. 1816 922 - - - -
2003-04 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 59 0 2 16 3444 122 2 10 2.13 34 19 6 1361 0. 1483 918


look at the shots ed got and look at his save pct

The man has 460 career nhl games talk about having a blind spot for the truth but your blind pot is larger then the grand canyon

Yourstateent that he isnt a started in the all time draft is ridiculous
 

pitseleh

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2002-03 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 62 0 2 24 3738 141 4 7 2.26 37 20 5 1675 0. 1816 922 - - - -
2003-04 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 59 0 2 16 3444 122 2 10 2.13 34 19 6 1361 0. 1483 918


look at the shots ed got and look at his save pct

The man has 460 career nhl games talk about having a blind spot for the truth but your blind pot is larger then the grand canyon

Yourstateent that he isnt a started in the all time draft is ridiculous

To be fair, put those numbers in context:

03/04: 12th in GAA and 10th in SV%
02/03: 10th in GAA and 5th in SV%

Hardly dominating numbers by any stretch of the imagination.

Personally, I feel that Belfour is either a bottom end starter or a top end backup in a draft like this. There are a couple of teams who have backups that I would have taken before Belfour personally.
 

God Bless Canada

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Belfour definitely didn't have a strong defence in front of him. A Pat Quinn coached team will generally play a more offensive, up-tempo style, so that's going to mean a lot of work for a goalie. Also, Toronto's defence in 2002-2004 was not very good. Belfour did a good job of re-establishing himself among the league's elite after a terrible final season in Dallas.

Belfour definitely benefitted from the team in front of him in Chicago and Dallas. Those teams always had a strong defence and a strong system. I believe Belfour ran into back problems during his brief stint in San Jose. If he has one fault from his Chicago days, he was often suspect in the playoffs, allowing soft goals and not making the big save when needed late in a game. He was really exposed in the 1992 final against Pittsburgh. A lot of people have forgotten those early-career playoff failures thanks to his post-season performances in Dallas.

If there is a fault, it's his mentality. The guy's a loose cannon. Which is why a Belfour-Barasso tandem is so problematic for Hap Day, but so entertaining for the media.
 

Leaf Lander

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To be fair, put those numbers in context:

03/04: 12th in GAA and 10th in SV%
02/03: 10th in GAA and 5th in SV%

Hardly dominating numbers by any stretch of the imagination.

Personally, I feel that Belfour is either a bottom end starter or a top end backup in a draft like this. There are a couple of teams who have backups that I would have taken before Belfour personally.

can u give the stats for the goaleis in front of him thanks

keep in mind thsoe are the stats of a 38 39 yr old
 

God Bless Canada

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In terms of the defence, I'll admit that Lidstrom is the best defenceman in the series. But I would take Horton ahead of Stevens. Keep in mind that Horton set the record for points by a defenceman in the playoffs, and was the No. 1 defenceman on a team that won four Cups in six years. Had he played in the 70s, 80s or most of the 90s, his offensive abilities (especially his booming shot) would be much more heralded. A case could be made either way for Stevens or Clancy.

Keep in mind the structure of my defence. Clancy is our No. 2, then J.C. Tremblay and Cameron. IMO, I walked out of the draft with four of the top 40 defencemen ever. Tremblay's the No. 2 eligible defenceman not in the HHOF. (Flip a coin with Tremblay and Brewer for No. 2. Mark Howe is No. 1). I would take my No. 4 (Cameron) before Toronto's No. 3 (Suter). Cameron, the man who could curve his shot, is horribly underrated around here.

As far as team defence (a huge factor, as defence is not just the blue-liners' responsibility), my team definitely has the edge. We have our top six defencemen. Then we also have our third and fourth line forwards, who we think can contain (not shut down) almost any team in the draft. Toronto has a strong third line, but the only other forwards who have a defensive presence are Recchi and Armstrong.

When I look at the teams, I believe that my team is one of the few that can roll out three penalty kill units. We also have two lines when leading by a goal in the final minute of the third period - a luxury that can't be underestimated.
 

Frightened Inmate #2

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2002-03 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 62 0 2 24 3738 141 4 7 2.26 37 20 5 1675 0. 1816 922 - - - -
2003-04 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 59 0 2 16 3444 122 2 10 2.13 34 19 6 1361 0. 1483 918


look at the shots ed got and look at his save pct

The man has 460 career nhl games talk about having a blind spot for the truth but your blind pot is larger then the grand canyon

Yourstateent that he isnt a started in the all time draft is ridiculous

High shot totals as a general rule act in large part to inflating a goaltenders save percentage due to the increased number of low percentage shots being taken on goal. It is as simple as that and I stand by my statement Belfour benifited from the teams that he played for (especially when you take wins into account). Just look at his performance in San Jose if you want evidence of that. Chiacgo - very good team. Dallas - very good team. Toronto - very good team once again...

In my opinion Belfour is one of the worst starters in the draft and would be better served as a backup.
 

Leaf Lander

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High shot totals as a general rule act in large part to inflating a goaltenders save percentage due to the increased number of low percentage shots being taken on goal. It is as simple as that and I stand by my statement Belfour benifited from the teams that he played for (especially when you take wins into account). Just look at his performance in San Jose if you want evidence of that. Chiacgo - very good team. Dallas - very good team. Toronto - very good team once again...

In my opinion Belfour is one of the worst starters in the draft and would be better served as a backup.

so accordign to your logic every goalie who played behind very good teams are great

so i imagien chico resh is your starting goalie or maybe you would make a homroe pick like king richard brodeur lol:)
 

Frightened Inmate #2

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No according to my logic Belfour while being a very good goaltender would not be a very good choice as a #1 goaltender in an all time draft due to the simple fact that everytime he has played on an average or poor team his numbers have taken a huge nosedive and after seeing him for many years I don't think he is a great goaltender for a #1 selection of all time.
 

God Bless Canada

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Belfour is a fine goalie, but he's 20-30 all time, so in an all-time draft with 20 teams, he's, at best, the worst choice possible. Brimsek would be a huge upgrade IMO.
Brimsek and Tiny Thompson would be better goalies. You could also make a case for Tony Esposito and Eddie Giacomin. Vezina is the worst No. 1 in the draft.
 

Nalyd Psycho

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Brimsek and Tiny Thompson would be better goalies. You could also make a case for Tony Esposito and Eddie Giacomin. Vezina is the worst No. 1 in the draft.
Thompson has the shame of a team finally winning the cup the season he leaves. He won as a rookie and made it to the finals as a sophomore, but never had a sniff at the cup after that. I'd rank him on roughly the same level as Belfour and Vezina. Great back-up, sub-par starter.

I agree on Espo and Giacomin being better.
 

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