Blues Trade Proposals Part XXXV

[WeWentBlues]

I still think Armstrong could bring in two top 6 players and Kyrou is still in the top 6. If he does bring in two, I'd almost guarantee that Fabbri is one the players who's leaving, so you'd still have a wing spot open on one of the top 6 lines. I'm also assuming that the top 6 players are a center and a left winger. I really don't foresee how the OHL MVP and the OHL Playoff MVP can't make this roster because either would have been arguably better than Thompson, Blais, or the parade of other failures last season that were the top 9 fill ins. I forgot to add that I'm also assuming one of Sobotka or Berglund is traded and Steen is on Thomas's left wing on the 3rd line. I may be hopeful, but it seems the most logical scenario. So, since it's the most logical, it won't happen. YAY Blues!

Just one of many avenues that Army could take this offseason to fix the top 9. Trade for Hoffman/Pacioretty. Sign Stastny. (Not saying this is my preference)

Schwartz - Schenn - Kyrou/Blais/Thompson/Tarasenko
Hoffman/Pacioretty/Fabbri - Stastny - Kyrou/Blais/Thompson/Tarasenko
Steen - Thomas - Berglund

 

[Thallis]

I don't know about that one...it's tough. There's definitely a scenario that sees him on the RW in the top-9 on Day 1.
There are also about a dozen *more likely* scenarios that sees him starting the season in San Antonio. Armstrong is almost certainly going to bring in an established forward from another organization...and if that number turns into two rather than one, Kyrou is going to be in a numbers game along with Thompson, Sanford, Fabbri, Blais, Kostin, Foley, Musil & Stevens for perhaps a single spot. I certainly wouldn't be betting any money on Kyrou breaking camp just knowing the circumstances...at least not until the Blues are able to shed a few people currently on the 23-man roster.

Agreed. I also think the scenario that he starts in San Antonio is the one best for both the Blues and Kyrou himself. I'd prefer to have our season not be relying on rookies to outperform the average to be successful like last year. It's just not a recipe for success.

 

[Stealth JD]

Kyrou was physically over-matched last year in training camp and has a whole lot to prove in a very short amount of time to prove it. Maybe he's matured greatly in the past year, but I'd be absolutely shocked if the Blues didn't want him to compete against men in the AHL before being asked to do it in the greatest league in the world. For all of Kyrou's success, it was still very much against teenagers. He's going to have to acclimate (and produce) pretty darn quickly against a bunch of guys who are older, more physically developed and just as hungry (if not more so, having lived the life of a minor-leaguer AND tasted the wine of the bigs) with the same goal in mind. I just don't see it. If it happens though, it's because he earned it and won it fair and square, because I don't expect anything to be handed to him.

 

[Majorityof1]

Give me dat:
Fabbri-Tavares-Tarasenko
Schwartz-Schenn-Kyrou
Steen-Thomas-Thompson/Kostin

Awful. 4 totally unproven players in the top 9. Fabbri is a crap shoot with the knee, and 3 rookies. If 2 of those guys aren't ready, we have Sanford and Jaskin in the top 9.

 

[DatDude44]

Awful. 4 totally unproven players in the top 9. Fabbri is a crap shoot with the knee, and 3 rookies. If 2 of those guys aren't ready, we have Sanford and Jaskin in the top 9.

Thomas is 100% ready, Kyrou is the question mark. Thompson would be perfectly fine as a 3RW next year especially playing with guys like thomas and steen.

This is also without any other trades/signings other than tavares and getting rid of berglund and sobotka.

Would still have a ton of cap room to go out and get another winger(especially if J-bo is on LTIR)

 

[Dbrownss]

Agreed. I also think the scenario that he starts in San Antonio is the one best for both the Blues and Kyrou himself. I'd prefer to have our season not be relying on rookies to outperform the average to be successful like last year. It's just not a recipe for success.

strange...the Blues most successful year recently was relying on 3 rookies.

 

[Dbrownss]

Kyrou was physically over-matched last year in training camp and has a whole lot to prove in a very short amount of time to prove it. Maybe he's matured greatly in the past year, but I'd be absolutely shocked if the Blues didn't want him to compete against men in the AHL before being asked to do it in the greatest league in the world. For all of Kyrou's success, it was still very much against teenagers. He's going to have to acclimate (and produce) pretty darn quickly against a bunch of guys who are older, more physically developed and just as hungry (if not more so, having lived the life of a minor-leaguer AND tasted the wine of the bigs) with the same goal in mind. I just don't see it. If it happens though, it's because he earned it and won it fair and square, because I don't expect anything to be handed to him.

So was Thomas, kid was a pinball out there. Managment thought long and hard about Thomas and Kyrou staying the Blues last year. I dont think this rift is as big as some make it out to be. He'll have a full year from last year to prove he's ready this year

 

[Majorityof1]

Thomas is 100% ready, Kyrou is the question mark. Thompson would be perfectly fine as a 3RW next year especially playing with guys like thomas and steen.

This is also without any other trades/signings other than tavares and getting rid of berglund and sobotka.

Would still have a ton of cap room to go out and get another winger(especially if J-bo is on LTIR)

You can't say Thomas is ready without seeing him there. Thompson wasn't ready for 3rd line RW this past year. He paced at 18 points over 82 games. Again, you can't say he will be this year. They are all question marks, Fabbri included. If that is the line-up we are rolling with, there is no reason to trade Sobotka and/or Berglund. We wouldn't need the cap space and they'd be very useful as back-ups.

 

[Majorityof1]

strange...the Blues most successful year recently was relying on 3 rookies.

So we should have totally played Blias, Thompson and Kostin this year? Who cares who the rookies are, or if they are ready. It just takes 3 rookies. If 3 rookies is good, let's run 12 next year...

Scwartz - Schenn - Kyrou
Steen - Thomas - Thompson
Blias - Stevens - Foley
Jaskin - Musil - Kostin

Edmundson - Pietrangelo
Dunn - Parayko
Walman - Schmaltz

Husso - Binnington

Edit: ooops, I forgot Tarasenko in my sarcasm, so maybe we only run 11.

 

[Frenzy31]

Is there any interest in trading Fabbri for Jordan Staal. He is a pretty solid 2nd line center. And if we can send a contract like Sobi or Berglund back it would make $$ sense.

There are a lot more LH wingers we could pursue this offseason - such as JVR. Just another thought with all of the ROR talk and interest in Skinner.

 

[Dbrownss]

So we should have totally played Blias, Thompson and Kostin this year? Who cares who the rookies are, or if they are ready. It just takes 3 rookies. If 3 rookies is good, let's run 12 next year...

Scwartz - Schenn - Kyrou
Steen - Thomas - Thompson
Blias - Stevens - Foley
Jaskin - Musil - Kostin

Edmundson - Pietrangelo
Dunn - Parayko
Walman - Schmaltz

Husso - Binnington

Edit: ooops, I forgot Tarasenko in my sarcasm, so maybe we only run 11.

Yes

 

[wannabebluesplayer]

You can't say Thomas is ready without seeing him there. Thompson wasn't ready for 3rd line RW this past year. He paced at 18 points over 82 games. Again, you can't say he will be this year. They are all question marks, Fabbri included. If that is the line-up we are rolling with, there is no reason to trade Sobotka and/or Berglund. We wouldn't need the cap space and they'd be very useful as back-ups.

Truthfully, you can't say any player, rookie or veteran is ready until you see them. None of us know how their off-season training is going. Everyone had Berglund penciled in and then he shattered his shoulder. I absolutely agree with you that Fabbri, Thomas, Thompson, and Kyrou are all question marks, but in my mind, now, so is the whole team. What version of Alex Steen are we going to see? Will Tarasenko's shooting percentage return to normal? Will Schwartz ever have a full season without a major injury? Will Allen finally learn how to become a stable goalie? Will Dunn be able to repeat? Arguably the biggest one is will Schenn be able to repeat his production? I don't think there is one thing I can guarantee about this team.

There is absolutely nothing, as far as knowing what a player is going to do for that season, that can be set in stone. William Karlsson has proven that. Absolutely none of us can unequivocally say that starting 3 rookies in the top 9 would mean this team is awful. From past experiences, the results truly vary for teams. What I can say, unequivocally, is that change is something this team desperately needs. Me, I'm on the side that believes an influx of young talent while selling older assets, maybe even at pennies on the dollar is a better thing for this team moving forward. Others are on the side of keeping those assets and moving younger assets for more established players. Either way, this team needs a change and I think the off-season, you're going to see it. But none of us can realistically put any kind of numbers out there that we can guarantee a player is going to meet. There are just too many extenuating circumstances.

 

[DatDude44]

You can't say Thomas is ready without seeing him there. Thompson wasn't ready for 3rd line RW this past year. He paced at 18 points over 82 games. Again, you can't say he will be this year. They are all question marks, Fabbri included. If that is the line-up we are rolling with, there is no reason to trade Sobotka and/or Berglund. We wouldn't need the cap space and they'd be very useful as back-ups.

I don’t disagree about questioning Thompson(tho I think getting that NHL experience and having another full offseason to build and grow into his 20 Y.O. 6’5 frame is gonna be big, I’d be surprised if he doesn’t take any steps forward into next year), fabbris injury (tho with all the recovery time he’s had and his age, I’d be very surprised if he’s not able to come back and be the guy we all know and love) or kyrou. Look at most of the league, at some point u gotta put some trust in the scouting staff and internal options, don’t “rush” the kids but at some point u gotta play them, live with the mistakes, learn from them, but infuse the high speed and highly skilled players into our top 9.

I highly recommend watching Robert Thomas some more, then tell me I can’t say he’s ready. I think for anyone who’s been around the game for a long time and watches/scouts/ follows prospects and their transitions to pro. I don’t know how u can’t say he’s ready to step in right away even if it’s as a 3C. He’s always discussed as the most NHL ready player in juniors etc..

In a perfect world I’d like to make a move for a Hoffman, JVRor paccioretty but I’m afraid of what shelling out a huge contract or trading futures for any of them could do for this team 2-3 years from now.

If fabbri can be himself. I’m extremely comfortable with my proposed lineup and jaskin/Sund/Sosh(if he stays) are fine as full ins on the 3rd line if tage/Klim aren’t ready and we don’t make any other depth signings(which obviously we’ll do)

 

[Majorityof1]

Truthfully, you can't say any player, rookie or veteran is ready until you see them. None of us know how their off-season training is going. Everyone had Berglund penciled in and then he shattered his shoulder. I absolutely agree with you that Fabbri, Thomas, Thompson, and Kyrou are all question marks, but in my mind, now, so is the whole team. What version of Alex Steen are we going to see? Will Tarasenko's shooting percentage return to normal? Will Schwartz ever have a full season without a major injury? Will Allen finally learn how to become a stable goalie? Will Dunn be able to repeat? Arguably the biggest one is will Schenn be able to repeat his production? I don't think there is one thing I can guarantee about this team.

There is absolutely nothing, as far as knowing what a player is going to do for that season, that can be set in stone. William Karlsson has proven that. Absolutely none of us can unequivocally say that starting 3 rookies in the top 9 would mean this team is awful. From past experiences, the results truly vary for teams. What I can say, unequivocally, is that change is something this team desperately needs. Me, I'm on the side that believes an influx of young talent while selling older assets, maybe even at pennies on the dollar is a better thing for this team moving forward. Others are on the side of keeping those assets and moving younger assets for more established players. Either way, this team needs a change and I think the off-season, you're going to see it. But none of us can realistically put any kind of numbers out there that we can guarantee a player is going to meet. There are just too many extenuating circumstances.

That's obfuscation. There is a big difference between a player returning from a minor injury and a totally unproven entity. We have a baseline on Steen that he will provide 45ish points and solid defense even if he doesn't score at first line rate. Tarasenko was a 60 point player this year. Schenn is a Top 6 NHL player even if he comes back to earth. Allen is known to be inconsistent. We know that and can plan around it by securing a solid back-up. We have no idea what to expect with the rookies because we have no baseline of comparison.

Rookies are like the box with Schrodinger's cat. The cat could be alive and could be dead, but until you open the box, both possibilities exist. Given the fact that you haven't been feeding this cat for days while wondering if its alive or dead, its probably dead, but people always want to believe the best, so most people think its alive. With rookies, they could be great or they could be terrible. Until they play, both possibilities exist. Given that 95% of all players struggle a bit in their first year, the chances are good they will struggle. But people always want to believe the best, so they continually think the unknown is better than the known. Why rely on such poor odds if you don't have to? Vegas had no choice but to take gambles. They were informed gambles and they paid off, but they had no other choice. We have a choice. Keep Berglund and Sobotka or sign other players. If the kids come in and play well, let them play. But make them force your hand. don't just give it to them.

 

[wannabebluesplayer]

That's obfuscation. There is a big difference between a player returning from a minor injury and a totally unproven entity. We have a baseline on Steen that he will provide 45ish points and solid defense even if he doesn't score at first line rate. Tarasenko was a 60 point player this year. Schenn is a Top 6 NHL player even if he comes back to earth. Allen is known to be inconsistent. We know that and can plan around it by securing a solid back-up. We have no idea what to expect with the rookies because we have no baseline of comparison.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but a baseline or track record in sports just gives you what to expect, not what you can guarantee will happen. Steen doesn't necessarily play solid defense anymore. He was VERY rough a lot of last year when it came to defense. Tarasenko's shooting percentage dropped. Rookies don't have an NHL baseline so you don't know what to expect or where to set expectations at, unlike veterans. That's where the fear of starting the rookies comes in, at least to me, it's the lack of being able to set an expectation. @Majorityof1, you and I have gone back and forth on subjects like this.

 

[Majorityof1]

I don’t disagree about questioning Thompson(tho I think getting that NHL experience and having another full offseason to build and grow into his 20 Y.O. 6’5 frame is gonna be big, I’d be surprised if he doesn’t take any steps forward into next year), fabbris injury (tho with all the recovery time he’s had and his age, I’d be very surprised if he’s not able to come back and be the guy we all know and love) or kyrou. Look at most of the league, at some point u gotta put some trust in the scouting staff and internal options, don’t “rush” the kids but at some point u gotta play them, live with the mistakes, learn from them, but infuse the high speed and highly skilled players into our top 9.

I highly recommend watching Robert Thomas some more, then tell me I can’t say he’s ready. I think for anyone who’s been around the game for a long time and watches/scouts/ follows prospects and their transitions to pro. I don’t know how u can’t say he’s ready to step in right away even if it’s as a 3C. He’s always discussed as the most NHL ready player in juniors etc..

In a perfect world I’d like to make a move for a Hoffman, JVRor paccioretty but I’m afraid of what shelling out a huge contract or trading futures for any of them could do for this team 2-3 years from now.

If fabbri can be himself. I’m extremely comfortable with my proposed lineup and jaskin/Sund/Sosh(if he stays) are fine as full ins on the 3rd line if tage/Klim aren’t ready and we don’t make any other depth signings(which obviously we’ll do)

I have watched a good bit of Thomas. I am impressed. But he is doing it in the juniors. Its a whole new ballgame when getting to the pros. The game is faster, the players are bigger and stronger. You can project how a players skills will translate to the pros, but there is absolutely nothing that can project how a player's mind will react to that difference. Even high IQ players sometimes struggle to adjust right away. You can bring one or maybe two guys struggling along, but it gets tougher with 3 or 4.

IIRC, many though Barzal would be ready the season before this one (when he was 19). The previous year, his draft +1 he put up 1.5 ppg, good for 5th in the WHL and a strong defensive game. He got a couple game look in the NHL and clearly wasn't due to mental mistakes and penalties. That doesn't mean he wasn't going to be a great pro, as he showed this past year. Only that at 19, he wasn't ready to be an NHL player. When he was only a year older at 20, he put up a season that will probably win the Calder. That could be Thomas.

 

[Thallis]

strange...the Blues most successful year recently was relying on 3 rookies.

They weren't relying on any of them, except maybe Parayko, who had big expectations from management, not unlike Thomas, but even he was 3rd pairing and given favorable situations. Edmunson was in and out of the lineup, playing controlled minutes against controlled completion, after he had proven himself in the AHL and earning a spot in training camp. Fabbri was put on the 3rd line and again given favorable matchups and zone starts. All three of them showed that they were worth their salt and earned more time as they went. Parayko was the only one penciled into the lineup in the summer and that was because he plays the strongest position on the team. This is the way you deal with young talent. You give them opportunity and let them earn their time in the lineup. Also year we needed one of them to be a contributor and none could, which severely hurt our chances.

 

[EastonBlues22]

The goal should be to come into camp with enough organizational depth that you don't need any rookie help at all. That's not always realistic, but it should always be the goal.

After that, I don't care how many rookies the team breaks camp with. Have an honest competition across the board, and break camp with the rookies who are ready. If that's zero, then it's zero. If that's five, then it's five.

Holding back kids that are ready because of some artificial roster quota isn't doing their development or the organization any good. Promoting kids that aren't ready because you have a roster with holes to plug isn't much better.

Prepare for the kids to not be ready. Promote any of the kids that are. It's pretty simple. There's no need to overthink it.

 

[EastonBlues22]

Also year we needed one of them to be a contributor and none could, which severely hurt our chances.

I agree with a lot of what you said, but I don't agree with this.

Lost years from Fabbri and Bouwmeester, Allen crapping the bed, Schwartz missing a quarter of the season, a Tarasenko off-year, going into the season with a flawed roster, poor special teams, etc., are what severely hurt the Blues chances.

Yeah, a prospect that wasn't ready stepping up unexpectedly would have helped, but the team's season didn't hinge in any way on what someone like Thompson did or didn't do.

 

[Dbrownss]

They weren't relying on any of them, except maybe Parayko, who had big expectations from management, not unlike Thomas, but even he was 3rd pairing and given favorable situations. Edmunson was in and out of the lineup, playing controlled minutes against controlled completion, after he had proven himself in the AHL and earning a spot in training camp. Fabbri was put on the 3rd line and again given favorable matchups and zone starts. All three of them showed that they were worth their salt and earned more time as they went. Parayko was the only one penciled into the lineup in the summer and that was because he plays the strongest position on the team. This is the way you deal with young talent. You give them opportunity and let them earn their time in the lineup. Also year we needed one of them to be a contributor and none could, which severely hurt our chances.

You said you see the best scenario is for Kyrou to start in San Antonio, Why though? I should have focused more on that. We both used "relying". Personally I shouldn't have. In 15/16 Parayko and Fabbri were impact players for Stl, that's what I meant by "rely". Edmundson didnt have as much of an impact.


I see people shoving Kyrou into the AHL when the Blues have 1 natural RW. The door is open for him and he checks off more "need" boxes then any other prospect. Is it possible he's AHL bound...yes. I just dont see it as a sure thing and not necessarily the best thing for him. The NHL is changing in ways that best suite his skillsets.


Thompson last year just wasnt ready. I didnt understand why he stayed from day 1. I understand you can't shoehorn prospects into the lineup, but the long road isnt always required

 

[Thallis]

You said you see the best scenario is for Kyrou to start in San Antonio, Why though? I should have focused more on that. We both used "relying". Personally I shouldn't have. In 15/16 Parayko and Fabbri were impact players for Stl, that's what I meant by "rely". Edmundson didnt have as much of an impact.


I see people shoving Kyrou into the AHL when the Blues have 1 natural RW. The door is open for him and he checks off more "need" boxes then any other prospect. Is it possible he's AHL bound...yes. I just dont see it as a sure thing and not necessarily the best thing for him. The NHL is changing in ways that best suite his skillsets.


Thompson last year just wasnt ready. I didnt understand why he stayed from day 1. I understand you can't shoehorn prospects into the lineup, but the long road isnt always required

Because that means we have acquired a competent top 6 RW and will be able to allow Kyrou to come to the NHL at his place as opposed to a forced need that happened because we came into camp unprepared from a roster standpoint. If he forces his way on the roster, that's fine. If management doesn't see the need to acquire a legit top 6 RW because we have Kyrou that is not fine in any way shape or form.

 

[Thallis]

I agree with a lot of what you said, but I don't agree with this.

Lost years from Fabbri and Bouwmeester, Allen crapping the bed, Schwartz missing a quarter of the season, a Tarasenko off-year, going into the season with a flawed roster, poor special teams, etc., are what severely hurt the Blues chances.

Yeah, a prospect that wasn't ready stepping up unexpectedly would have helped, but the team's season didn't hinge in any way on what someone like Thompson did or didn't do.

All of those things hurt, true, but I think the ultimate failure of the roster last season was the lack of depth scoring on it. Tarasenko had an off year, and Scwartz missed time, but we still could mostly count on the first line to produce in line in the top half of NHL squads. The biggest problem to me was our 2nd and 3rd line being completely unable to shoulder some of the burden of those injuries, and having to rotate Thompson and Blais in there was a big portion of that. Collectively they gave about half of the production you'd expect from that 3rd line RW position. The state and maturity of our core dictates that we should be trying to avoid that from happening in the near future.

 

[Dbrownss]

Because that means we have acquired a competent top 6 RW and will be able to allow Kyrou to come to the NHL at his place as opposed to a forced need that happened because we came into camp unprepared from a roster standpoint. If he forces his way on the roster, that's fine. If management doesn't see the need to acquire a legit top 6 RW because we have Kyrou that is not fine in any way shape or form.

I agree up until the bolded, although I see your point. I dont think they are that bullish on Kyrou, but if they were..I'd trust their judgment. It's one reason I liked Silfverberg. He can slide up and down. If they acquired a pure top 6 RW, I see that as blocking Kyrou at the cost of assets...if that makes any sense

 

[Blueston]

You said you see the best scenario is for Kyrou to start in San Antonio, Why though? I should have focused more on that. We both used "relying". Personally I shouldn't have. In 15/16 Parayko and Fabbri were impact players for Stl, that's what I meant by "rely". Edmundson didnt have as much of an impact.


I see people shoving Kyrou into the AHL when the Blues have 1 natural RW. The door is open for him and he checks off more "need" boxes then any other prospect. Is it possible he's AHL bound...yes. I just dont see it as a sure thing and not necessarily the best thing for him. The NHL is changing in ways that best suite his skillsets.


Thompson last year just wasnt ready. I didnt understand why he stayed from day 1. I understand you can't shoehorn prospects into the lineup, but the long road isnt always required

Kyrou hasn't been able to crack AHL lineup at end of season for last 2 years. Seems unlikely he will be NHL ready by training camp.

 

[Dbrownss]

Kyrou hasn't been able to crack AHL lineup at end of season for last 2 years. Seems unlikely he will be NHL ready by training camp.

We've been through this. If this is your sword....go ahead and fall on it.