Better peak: Howe vs Lemieux?

[canucks4ever]

That's not what I asked.

The question is are Crosby, OV and Malkin in the same galaxy as everyone who beat them in points and goals in the '80s and '90s?

Not sure why you are asking that? The differences between those eras in scoring rates are dramatic.

Do you view Gordie Howe's peak years as equal to Gretzky's 200 point seasons, to me it sounds like you do.

 

[daver]

Not sure why you are asking that? The differences between those eras in scoring rates are dramatic.

Do you view Gordie Howe's peak years as equal to Gretzky's 200 point seasons, to me it sounds like you do.

Not that using league GPG doesn't have its flaws but guess what two years had the lowest GPG between 1945 and 1967 by a substantial amount?

I'll give you a hint. One year was when Howe put up his highest point total (while only his linemate could hit above 0.90) and the other was when no other player in the Top 5 was above a PPG.

And guess what happens to the league average after 1954?

I'll give you a hint. It is the same thing that happened to the # of PPG players per year.

And guess what season had a league GPG that was 27% higher than 1952/53. I think you know what the answer is don't you?

NHL League Averages | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[canucks4ever]

Not that using league GPG doesn't have its flaws but guess what two years had the lowest GPG between 1945 and 1967 by a substantial amount?

I'll give you a hint. One year was when Howe put up his highest point total (while only his linemate could hit above 0.90) and the other was when no other player in the Top 5 was above a PPG.

And guess what happens to the league average after 1954?

I'll give you a hint. It is the same thing that happened to the # of PPG players per year.

And guess what season had a league GPG that was 27% higher than 1952/53. I think you know what the answer is don't you?

NHL League Averages | Hockey-Reference.com

That doesnt answer my question. I asked you how much value his peak years. Do you view them as equivalent to Gretzky's 215 point seasons?

 

[daver]

That doesnt answer my question. I asked you how much value his peak years. Do you view them as equivalent to Gretzky's 215 point seasons?

Statistically his 52/53 are in the ballpark from a performance vs peers perspective. Like most, I think it is a clear step below Wayne and Mario's best but a step above everyone else.

Your turn, any comments on the league GPG confirming Howe's 52/53 season as being clearly the most dominant of his era?

 

[canucks4ever]

Statistically his 52/53 are in the ballpark from a performance vs peers perspective. Like most, I think it is a clear step below Wayne and Mario's best but a step above everyone else.

Your turn, any comments on the league GPG confirming Howe's 52/53 season as being clearly the most dominant of his era?

A clear step below, so does that mean 185 points or about 160 points? How good do you think Howe was offensively?

If we rank Howe above Mario due to consistency and longevity, then why not rank Howe over Orr?

 

[daver]

A clear step below, so does that mean 185 points or about 160 points? How good do you think Howe was offensively?

If we rank Howe above Mario due to consistency and longevity, then why not rank Howe over Orr?

How many points? Somewhere in there. What do you want me to say? Clearly more than Jagr and Yzerman but clearly less than Wayne and Mario.

A lot of people do rank him over Orr for the very good reason that he achieved considerably more despite a lower peak. What's your point?

 

[daver]

Your turn, any comments on the league GPG confirming Howe's 52/53 season as being clearly the most dominant of his era?

Did you miss this?

 

[canucks4ever]

Did you miss this?

Just because he scored 95 points in a season with a low goals per game, it doesnt mean his point totals would skyrocket. Unless you truly think Howe of 1953 was significantly better than Howe of 1951 and 1957. Its all hypotheticals. Dominance over peers doesn't mean you can score 185 points in the 80s. Its all guessing.

 

[canucks4ever]

How many points? Somewhere in there. What do you want me to say? Clearly more than Jagr and Yzerman but clearly less than Wayne and Mario.

A lot of people do rank him over Orr for the very good reason that he achieved considerably more despite a lower peak. What's your point?

Clearly more than 155 points? You sure about that?

 

[daver]

Just because he scored 95 points in a season with a low goals per game, it doesnt mean his point totals would skyrocket. Unless you truly think Howe of 1953 was significantly better than Howe of 1951 and 1957. Its all hypotheticals. Dominance over peers doesn't mean you can score 185 points in the 80s. Its all guessing.

The amount that he outscored his oppostion in 52/53 is actually NOT a hypothetical. That's a real stat.

Putting that version of Howe into 55/56 or 65/66 and presuming he puts up the same amount of points IS a textbook hypothetical.

Comparing performances vs. peers is not guessing. It's real stats.

 

[daver]

Clearly more than 155 points? You sure about that?

Based on performance vs. peers, I think Howe's peak season is clearly the 4th best in NHL history so he would be beating the highest point totals of the 80s and 90s besides Wayne and Mario.

 

[canucks4ever]

The amount that he outscored his oppostion in 52/53 is actually NOT a hypothetical. That's a real stat.

Putting that version of Howe into 55/56 or 65/66 and presuming he puts up the same amount of points IS a textbook hypothetical.

Comparing performances vs. peers is not guessing. It's real stats.

Yeah performance vs peers, just like Crosby's 2014 art ross. I guess thats the best season in the last 20 plus years.

Again, performance vs peers in one season has nothing to do with the fact that his point totals and goal totals were beaten fairly easily. He only has 2 of the top 10 point totals in his own era, thats it? Just two. I was expecting him to own at least 6 or 7 out of 10 if he was truly that much better than Hull and Beliveau.

 

[canucks4ever]

Based on performance vs. peers, I think Howe's peak season is clearly the 4th best in NHL history so he would be beating the highest point totals of the 80s and 90s besides Wayne and Mario.

You think he would be able to score more points than Steve Yzerman. That's the key word, you think. Just a hypothetical.

 

[daver]

You think he would be able to score more points than Steve Yzerman. That's the key word, you think. Just a hypothetical.

Why should we think he wouldn't? The scoring levels rates from 52/53 compared to the '80s and 90s are, to use your word, "dramatic", so you obviously are able to apply context to PPGs from different seasons.

So make your case as to why he wouldn't score more than Yzerman? Or why Crosby would score more than 120 points in the '80s and '90s?

 

[canucks4ever]

Why should we think he wouldn't? The scoring levels rates from 52/53 compared to the '80s and 90s are, to use your word, "dramatic", so you obviously are able to apply context to PPGs from different seasons.

So make your case as to why he wouldn't score more than Yzerman? Or why Crosby would score more than 120 points in the '80s and '90s?

Why would I need to make a case, these are all hypotheticals. Lots of superstars played in that high scoring era where goals per game ranged from 7 to 8 goals per game and none of them eclipsed Yzerman's point totals except for 99/66. Either Gordie would score more points than Yzerman or he wouldn't. I don't really need to make a case either way. Yzerman will have the highest single season point record for any non 99/66 player, and that record will likely never be broken.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Why would I need to make a case, these are all hypotheticals. Lots of superstars played in that high scoring era where goals per game ranged from 7 to 8 goals per game and none of them eclipsed Yzerman's point totals except for 99/66. Either Gordie would score more points than Yzerman or he wouldn't. I don't really need to make a case either way. Yzerman will have the highest single season point record for any non 99/66 player, and that record will likely never be broken.

So, does this make Yzerman a better player than Howe?

 

[canucks4ever]

So, does this make Yzerman a better player than Howe?

I never made that claim, he doesnt match Howe in longevity. If people here want to make a claim that prime gordie howe is a 180-215 point caliber player in the 80's, they can. I just doubt it, that's all.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I never made that claim, he doesnt match Howe in longevity. If people here want to make a claim that prime gordie howe is a 180-215 point caliber player in the 80's, they can. I just doubt it, that's all.

So, at their best, was Yzerman a better player than Howe?

 

[canucks4ever]

So, at their best, was Yzerman a better player than Howe?

Better overall player, no. Do you also view Howe as a 180-200 point caliber?

 

[Thenameless]

Better overall player, no. Do you also view Howe as a 180-200 point caliber?

I don't see it.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Better overall player, no. Do you also view Howe as a 180-200 point caliber?

I don't really care for this type of speculation.

What I do know for a fact is that Gordie Howe played in the NHL in the 1979-80 season and had 15 goals, 26 assists and was a +9. When he was 51 years old. I suspect he would have been somewhat better if he were 21. Or 31. Or 41.

 

[Thenameless]

I don't really care for this type of speculation.

What I do know for a fact is that Gordie Howe played in the NHL in the 1979-80 season and had 15 goals, 26 assists and was a +9. When he was 51 years old. I suspect he would have been somewhat better if he were 21. Or 31. Or 41.

Well, he might be the best player in the league in the 1979-80 season at some of those younger ages, but still not likely to score north of 180 in a season. He played a different game. I like to think a more complete game, or maybe even the most complete game ever.

 

[daver]

I never made that claim, he doesnt match Howe in longevity. If people here want to make a claim that prime gordie howe is a 180-215 point caliber player in the 80's, they can. I just doubt it, that's all.

You keep skirting this question:

If you are able to put Crosby's raw point totals into context vs. raw point totals in the '80s because of differences in scoring levels, why not apply the same type of thinking when comparing Howe's 52/53 point total to Belliveau's 55/56 season and Hull's 65/66 season?

I would appreciate an answer in the form of an answer rather than a question.

 

[daver]

Well, he might be the best player in the league in the 1979-80 season at some of those younger ages, but still not likely to score north of 180 in a season. He played a different game. I like to think a more complete game, or maybe even the most complete game ever.

Whether a player's game would or would not translate well in another era is completely subjective and should not be the basis for rating a player all-time.

The main contention by the other poster is Howe did not stand out vs. his peers like Belliveau and Hull when comparing raw point totals. I am arguing that he did clearly stand out when you compare how each did in their peak seasons when looking at the rest of the league's totals in those respective seasons.

What are your thoughts on that?

 

[canucks4ever]

You keep skirting this question:

If you are able to put Crosby's raw point totals into context vs. raw point totals in the '80s because of differences in scoring levels, why not apply the same type of thinking when comparing Howe's 52/53 point total to Belliveau's 55/56 season and Hull's 65/66 season?

I would appreciate an answer in the form of an answer rather than a question.

Nobody knows how many points crosby would score in the 80s. Goals per game shouldnt be the only criteria. How much ice time was hull or howe given in thier respective best seasons? In 1998-99, the nhl only averaged 5.3 goals per game, yet the top 10 scorers were all very productive offensively because they were getting 23-27 minutes of ice time per game.