Better Hart record: OV or Crosby?

[Regal]

I would be surprised to see him get a Top 5 this year.

Yea, I'd be surprised if Kucherov, Giroux and McDavid weren't ahead of him. Probably Malkin as well. Which would put him 8th

 

[Thenameless]

It's tricky, but when it's this close, I'd use wins as my tie breaker. So, Ovechkin. Yes, it might be a simplistic view that should take more context into account, but when you go that way, sometimes context can work both ways too.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Also have to look at his lack of competition on his team. One of the reasons Ovechkin won the Hart so easily in '09 is because Malkin had Crosby as a teammate who was 3rd in scoring.

That's more than washed out by the huge advantage Crosby has by having so much ice time with Malkin. Malkin assists or scores the goal on 30%+ of Crosby's points in some seasons. For Crosby's first Hart, Malkin was in on 32% of Crosby's points (38 out of 120).

As for the poll, #1s far outweigh the others. Winning the Hart is what matters most. Who placed fifth in what year is of far less significance. On this basis, it's gotta be Ovechkin.

 

[Regal]

That's more than washed out by the huge advantage Crosby has by having so much ice time with Malkin. Malkin assists or scores the goal on 30%+ of Crosby's points in some seasons. For Crosby's first Hart, Malkin was in on 32% of Crosby's points (38 out of 120).

As for the poll, #1s far outweigh the others. Winning the Hart is what matters most. Who placed fifth in what year is of far less significance. On this basis, it's gotta be Ovechkin.

I don't see how the two are related. Teammates affect the perception of value in close races and Ovechkin has the advantage of largely being considered the clear best on his team. That doesn't mean Malkin conversely increases Crosby's chances of winning the Hart by propping up his totals. Malkin isn't Gretzky and neither one of them has had a shortage of high level teammates.

Besides, playing with Malkin mostly on the PP isn't some huge advantage when the Caps have historically had great PPs themselves, Backstrom is arguably a better PP player than Malkin, and Ovechkin has had the better regular ES linemates.

 

[daver]

It's tricky, but when it's this close, I'd use wins as my tie breaker. So, Ovechkin. Yes, it might be a simplistic view that should take more context into account, but when you go that way, sometimes context can work both ways too.

It's reasonable. Both players have had two seasons where they won both the Hart and the Lindsay which should leave no room for context. Crosby has one more season where he won one of the two awards, OV has two of those seasons.

I am guessing that the vote going clearly to Crosby is taking the amount of full seasons each player has into consideration.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I don't see how the two are related. Teammates affect the perception of value in close races and Ovechkin has the advantage of largely being considered the clear best on his team. That doesn't mean Malkin conversely increases Crosby's chances of winning the Hart by propping up his totals. Malkin isn't Gretzky and neither one of them has had a shortage of high level teammates.

Malkin is comfortably the third best player of this generation. He is an amazing playmaker and has an excellent shot. If he is contributing to 30%+ of Crosby's points, it is impossible to imagine some of these points are not being generated by Malkin's immense talent. Point totals are the first factor people look to for Hart voting. I don't see how you can decouple the two - particularly in the seasons where Malkin is all over Crosby's scoring logs.

Besides, playing with Malkin mostly on the PP isn't some huge advantage when the Caps have historically had great PPs themselves, Backstrom is arguably a better PP player than Malkin, and Ovechkin has had the better regular ES linemates.

The Caps have had a great PP for over a decade because of Ovechkin. Watch the Caps PP vs any other team in the NHL. Ovechkin is the only player in the world that teams deem worth dedicating an entire player to shadowing and putting the rest of their guys in a 4 v 3 situation. No other player garners that kind of attention. This creates a lot of space for Backstrom. Backstrom also gets the secondary assist on many if not most of Ovechkin's PP goals, because he passes to the defenseman (over the years Green and now Carlson) and the defenseman makes an easy pass to Ovie for the one-timer. The point totals make Backstrom look like a PP wizard when really he is merely very good. PP secondary assists inflate Backstrom's overall point totals beyond his actual offensive value (he's fifth in points since entering the league, but nobody is arguing that he's a top 5 player, or even forward, of this generation), but it all starts with Ovechkin.

 

[Regal]

Malkin is comfortably the third best player of this generation. He is an amazing playmaker and has an excellent shot. If he is contributing to 30%+ of Crosby's points, it is impossible to imagine some of these points are not being generated by Malkin's immense talent. Point totals are the first factor people look to for Hart voting. I don't see how you can decouple the two - particularly in the seasons where Malkin is all over Crosby's scoring logs.



The Caps have had a great PP for over a decade because of Ovechkin. Watch the Caps PP vs any other team in the NHL. Ovechkin is the only player in the world that teams deem worth dedicating an entire player to shadowing and putting the rest of their guys in a 4 v 3 situation. No other player garners that kind of attention. This creates a lot of space for Backstrom. Backstrom also gets the secondary assist on many if not most of Ovechkin's PP goals, because he passes to the defenseman (over the years Green and now Carlson) and the defenseman makes an easy pass to Ovie for the one-timer. The point totals make Backstrom look like a PP wizard when really he is merely very good. PP secondary assists inflate Backstrom's overall point totals beyond his actual offensive value (he's fifth in points since entering the league, but nobody is arguing that he's a top 5 player, or even forward, of this generation), but it all starts with Ovechkin.

No player is an island and all of them generate points partly due to teammates. If Crosby played almost exclusively with Malkin you might have a point, but he doesn't. 30% isn't a particularly high number for a star teammate and the lower the number, the less the quality of that teammate matters. Backstrom has points on over 44% of Ovechkin's points since the 07-08 season when he entered the league. Does the difference between Malkin and Backstrom more than account for the greater percentage of Ovechkin's points Backstrom has an influence on? I doubt it. Not to mention Semin, Green and Kuznetsov over the years. Again, both these players have had no shortage of high end teammates to help them and both have shown they can score with just about anyone around them. The teammate factor in terms of their individual scoring should be largely insignificant.

Besides none of this really is relevant to the '09 season which I was focusing on. The point was about voting percentages, and how Ovechkin's dominant win over Malkin that year is not indicative of how much better than Malkin he was that year as the poster was suggesting, but indicative of how prevalent the opinion that he was more valuable was. EasyforKuzy seems to always want to paint the Hart voting as a straight best player analysis, and this has simply never been true. The winner is typically the best player but close votes are often influenced by value to team and this becomes a bigger factor the further down the list we go. So while voting percentage is an interesting factor to look at, and helps distinguish between seasons where someone is a close second or a distant third, etc, just looking at the quality of the players in competition does not give the full picture. You have to also look at the context of the situations the players were in. And one of the factors involved in that '09 vote was that Crosby helped mitigate Malkin's perceived value. The fact that the two of them were on the same team meant it was harder for Malkin to be seen as carrying his team. This doesn't mean Malkin had it easier due to his elite teammate, because the scoring depth was weak that year, and Ovechkin still had Backstrom, Semin and Green.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Poll would be better done when we have the results from this past season. At the moment, it’s super close.

 

[lwvs84]

Am I the only one that read Brett Hart record? I know who I'd pick in a fight...

 

[daver]

No player is an island and all of them generate points partly due to teammates. If Crosby played almost exclusively with Malkin you might have a point, but he doesn't. 30% isn't a particularly high number for a star teammate and the lower the number, the less the quality of that teammate matters. Backstrom has points on over 44% of Ovechkin's points since the 07-08 season when he entered the league. Does the difference between Malkin and Backstrom more than account for the greater percentage of Ovechkin's points Backstrom has an influence on? I doubt it. Not to mention Semin, Green and Kuznetsov over the years. Again, both these players have had no shortage of high end teammates to help them and both have shown they can score with just about anyone around them. The teammate factor in terms of their individual scoring should be largely insignificant.

Besides none of this really is relevant to the '09 season which I was focusing on. The point was about voting percentages, and how Ovechkin's dominant win over Malkin that year is not indicative of how much better than Malkin he was that year as the poster was suggesting, but indicative of how prevalent the opinion that he was more valuable was. EasyforKuzy seems to always want to paint the Hart voting as a straight best player analysis, and this has simply never been true. The winner is typically the best player but close votes are often influenced by value to team and this becomes a bigger factor the further down the list we go. So while voting percentage is an interesting factor to look at, and helps distinguish between seasons where someone is a close second or a distant third, etc, just looking at the quality of the players in competition does not give the full picture. You have to also look at the context of the situations the players were in. And one of the factors involved in that '09 vote was that Crosby helped mitigate Malkin's perceived value. The fact that the two of them were on the same team meant it was harder for Malkin to be seen as carrying his team. This doesn't mean Malkin had it easier due to his elite teammate, because the scoring depth was weak that year, and Ovechkin still had Backstrom, Semin and Green.

I cannot believe that Midnight Judges and I both like this post. Well done.

In terms of voting %'s vs. a reasonable evaluation of the strength of their seasons, OV's 07/08 is correct, Crosby's 06/07 seems a bit low, Crosby's 13/14 seems a bit high, as does OV's 08/09.

 

[tacogeoff]

Ovi does.

Winning the trophy is all that matters imo. Who cares if you had votes and didn't win it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think each of them have deserved 3 Harts in their career, both lost 1 due to an injury (Ovi in 2009-2010 and Crosby in 2012-2013). So that has Ovi winning in 2008, 2009 and 2010, with Crosby winning in 2007, 2013 and 2014. Outside of the 3 seasons the won, Crosby has 2 2nd place finishes, a 3rd place finish and a 5th place finish. Ovechkin has 2 2nd place finishes (one being in 2013) and a 6th place finish. So it looks pretty damn even to me.

Their actual Hart count is more or less equal, I think the best argument to make for one over the other is that Crosby did that while missing 3 seasons of his prime due to injuries when Ovi has been healthier. Crosby has basically an equal Hart record to Ovi while missing 25+ games in 4 of 13 seasons, while Ovi has been very healthy.

 

[Fataldogg]

The guy with more Harts.

You don't get an award for finishing 2nd or 3rd.

 

[Oilers Propagandist]

Both players have received Hart votes in eleven seasons. Once you subtract similar placings (e.g. two of the first place finishes are removed, two 2nd place finishes are removed etc...) you are left with six placings each:

Crosby - 2, 3, 5, 17, 20, 24

OV - 1, 6, 12, 14, 22, 23

Who has the better career Hart trophy resume?

OV's #1 beats crosby's #2 and OV's #23 beats Crosby's #24.

Ov has more depth in votes and more victories so I choose him.

 

[daver]

OV's #1 beats crosby's #2 and OV's #23 beats Crosby's #24.

Ov has more depth in votes and more victories so I choose him.

More depth? Crosby has three Top 5's vs. OV's one. Crosby's #3, #5, and #20 beats OV's #6, #12, and #22.

No issue with picking OV based on is #1 but your logic is faulty on the rest.

 

[Laineux]

Regardless of media-driven Hart voting, everyone should realize that Crosby is simply a much superior hockey player to Ovechkin.

 

[daver]

Regardless of media-driven Hart voting, everyone should realize that Crosby is simply a much superior hockey player to Ovechkin.

I think their respective Hart finishes reflect the value each brought to their team so there is no need to make this comment.

 

[gretskidoo]

Only thing that matters is winning it. Only fanboys care about being runner-ups.