Best Player Ever????

[Ogopogo*]

No one but no one , Gretzky included, could carry Orr's jock ! SuperBoy B. Orr at 15 , albeit with honorble mention from Jacques Plante, and a bunch of forgettable OHL all Stars defeated the CCCP Men's Nat Team....2-1...and u better believe it, that 15 year old Kid was by far the BEST Player on the ICe...

Nobody but Nobudy...except Orr ...ever killed an entire penalty all by Himself ...

There's #4...and then there's the rest...

Dont gimme this crap about the modern NHL...Orr Woulda Owned it...

EASILY !!!!

Credibility-destroying hyperbole.

 

[Sens Rule]

Completely disagree with this statement. The team has a tremendous bearing on a pitcher's W/L record.

In 1987, Nolan Ryan led the NL with a 2.76 ERA and, because the Astros sucked and couldn't put up runs, he had an 8-16 record. Please explain how that is Ryan's fault.

Ryan was the best pitcher in the NL, he should have won the Cy Young. W/L should not have cost him that award.

ERA combined with IP is the most important measure of a pitcher's value.

That is one season that is an abberation. Look at Steve Carleton's 1972 season when he was 27-10 on a team that went 59-97.

Over a 20+ year career it evens out. A pitcher can have a decent winning percentage with a bad team. And Ryan's teams were not always that bad.

I am not saying Ryan wasn't awesome - He was awesome but he is not one of the 3 or 5 or 10 greatest starting pitchers ever. More like somewhere 15-25 or so. He is thought to be a far greater pitcher than he was by the average fan because of how much media love he got late in his later days pitching for the Rangers.

 

[Sens Rule]

Consider Clemens career vs Ryan's

Clemens 23 seasons 348-178 4817 IP 1549 BB 4604 SO 3.10 ERA (4.46 league ERA in his career)

Clemens AVERAGE season 17-8 237 IP 76 BB 226 SO 3.10 ERA (vs 4.46 avg for pitchers)

Ryan 27 years 324-292 5386 IP 2795 BB 5714 SO 3.19 ERA (3.57 league ERA in his career)

Ryan Average season 13-12 231 IP 120 BB 245 SO 3.19 ERA (vs 3.57 league average ERA)

Clemens allows 1.36 less runs per game than the average pitcher in his league over his career while Ryan allows 0.38 less runs per game than the average pitcher in his league over his career.

 

[alrusso]

Right on the mark!

That is one season that is an abberation. Look at Steve Carleton's 1972 season when he was 27-10 on a team that went 59-97.

Over a 20+ year career it evens out. A pitcher can have a decent winning percentage with a bad team. And Ryan's teams were not always that bad.

I am not saying Ryan wasn't awesome - He was awesome but he is not one of the 3 or 5 or 10 greatest starting pitchers ever. More like somewhere 15-25 or so. He is thought to be a far greater pitcher than he was by the average fan because of how much media love he got late in his later days pitching for the Rangers.

Absolutely right about Nolan Ryan. Great strikeout pitcher-the best, not a complete pitcher. He was a .500 pither for most of his career and was better in the last third. Overall a good pither, but not great!

 

[alrusso]

Great stats!

Consider Clemens career vs Ryan's

Clemens 23 seasons 348-178 4817 IP 1549 BB 4604 SO 3.10 ERA (4.46 league ERA in his career)

Clemens AVERAGE season 17-8 237 IP 76 BB 226 SO 3.10 ERA (vs 4.46 avg for pitchers)

Ryan 27 years 324-292 5386 IP 2795 BB 5714 SO 3.19 ERA (3.57 league ERA in his career)

Ryan Average season 13-12 231 IP 120 BB 245 SO 3.19 ERA (vs 3.57 league average ERA)

Clemens allows 1.36 less runs per game than the average pitcher in his league over his career while Ryan allows 0.38 less runs per game than the average pitcher in his league over his career.

You have to look at these pithers against the competition of their time, which you did! Good job!

 

[asdf]

Credibility-destroying hyperbole.

But you didn't have a problem with the OP. I wonder why that is.

 

[The Thomas J.*]

1.Messier
2.Gretzky
3.Orr
4.Lemuiex
5.Howe
6.Brett Hull

 

[Ogopogo*]

Consider Clemens career vs Ryan's

Clemens 23 seasons 348-178 4817 IP 1549 BB 4604 SO 3.10 ERA (4.46 league ERA in his career)

Clemens AVERAGE season 17-8 237 IP 76 BB 226 SO 3.10 ERA (vs 4.46 avg for pitchers)

Ryan 27 years 324-292 5386 IP 2795 BB 5714 SO 3.19 ERA (3.57 league ERA in his career)

Ryan Average season 13-12 231 IP 120 BB 245 SO 3.19 ERA (vs 3.57 league average ERA)

Clemens allows 1.36 less runs per game than the average pitcher in his league over his career while Ryan allows 0.38 less runs per game than the average pitcher in his league over his career.

I completely agree that Clemens was greater than Ryan.

 

[The Thomas J.*]

I completely agree that Clemens was greater than Ryan.

Clemens has had a sick career.

 

[JaymzB]

Consider Clemens career vs Ryan's

Clemens 23 seasons 348-178 4817 IP 1549 BB 4604 SO 3.10 ERA (4.46 league ERA in his career)

Clemens AVERAGE season 17-8 237 IP 76 BB 226 SO 3.10 ERA (vs 4.46 avg for pitchers)

Ryan 27 years 324-292 5386 IP 2795 BB 5714 SO 3.19 ERA (3.57 league ERA in his career)

Ryan Average season 13-12 231 IP 120 BB 245 SO 3.19 ERA (vs 3.57 league average ERA)

Clemens allows 1.36 less runs per game than the average pitcher in his league over his career while Ryan allows 0.38 less runs per game than the average pitcher in his league over his career.

Wow...I knew Clemens was good...but that is a ridiculous W/L record.