Best hockey players ever

[God Bless Canada]

How much would the era affect who you would pick? If your team was going to play in the NHL in 1955 or say in the high flying 1985 era or say the "deadpuck" 2003 season. Considering the changes in style, equipment, size of players, arenas etc.

I would pretty much go with a very similar forward and defence list as God Bless Canada's (lazy won't make my own list right now but it would be essentially the same as his anyway).

I think the greatest forwards and defence, at least those in the top 20 ever, shine in any era regardless of the equipment they use, the style of play or other factors.

The only changes I would make are in goal:

1955 Sawchuk Plante
1985 Roy Brodeur
2002 Hasek Roy

When you're talking about a second team, those are still all-time greats. Those are the top 26 forwards, 14 defencemen and 6 goalies. When I talk about all-time greats, I'm talking about guys in the top 50-100 players.

Players are bigger, strong and faster than they were 50 years ago. Nobody will deny that. But what most fail to realize is that size, speed and strength are three of the many qualities, traits and characteristics that all-time greats might have. After all, if it was just size, speed and strength, Robert Dome would be one of the best in the league right now.

In the end, the keys to greatness never change: hard work, determination, heart, clutch play and an ability to think the game. You can be small and succeed. You can be an average or even below average skater and succeed. But if you don't have a work ethic, you'll fail. If you can't think the game, you'll fail. And if you can't deliver when it matters most, your legacy will be tarnished.

As for goalie: I think the mental side of the game is even bigger than it is for forwards and defencemen. You can have all the talent, reflexes, quickness and rebound control you want. If you don't have that mental edge, you'll fail, or be severely hindered.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Ogopogo do you have a website somewhere that explains your list in detail? I'd like to see how it works.

I am actually finalizing the details of my system and I will be drafting an explanation. It is quite lengthy and, unfortunately, I don't have it prepared at this time.

In short, I accumulate key data (statistics as well as eyewitness evidence) from each season in NHL history. I then combine it into a formula that gives each player a numerical value for the 'greatness' of their career.

I hope to be able to complete this project this winter and then I will provide the information you seek.

 

[canucksfan]

Goalies
1.Plante
2.Sawchuk
3.Hall

Defencemen
1.Orr
2.Shore
3.Harvey
4.Potvin
5.Bourque
6.Kelly
7.Robinson

Forwards
1.Gretzky
2.Howe
3.Lemieux
4.Beliveau
5.Richard
6.Hull
7.Morenz
8.LaFleur
9.Esposito
10.Mikita
11.Clarke
12.Trottier
13.Messier

 

[Weztex]

Goalies

1. Roy
2. Sawchuk / Plante
3. Hall / Hasek

Defensemen

1. Bobby Orr
2. Doug Harvey
3. Eddie Shore
4. Raymond Bourque
5. Denis Potvin
6. Larry Robinson
Bench: Red Kelly, Paul Coffey

Forwards

1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Mario Lemieux
3. Gordie Howe
4. Maurice Richard
5. Bobby Hull
6. Jean Béliveau
7. Jaromir Jagr
8. Phil Esposito
9. Guy Lafleur
10. Howie Morenz
11. Stan Mikita
12. Bobby Clarke
Bench: Ted Lindsay, Bryan Trottier, Mark Messier

 

[trevchar1971]

Goalies

1. Roy
2. Sawchuk / Plante
3. Hall / Hasek

Defensemen

1. Bobby Orr
2. Doug Harvey
3. Eddie Shore
4. Raymond Bourque
5. Denis Potvin
6. Larry Robinson
Bench: Red Kelly, Paul Coffey

Forwards

1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Mario Lemieux
3. Gordie Howe
4. Maurice Richard
5. Brett Hull
6. Jean Béliveau
7. Jaromir Jagr
8. Phil Esposito
9. Guy Lafleur
10. Howie Morenz
11. Stan Mikita
12. Bobby Clarke
Bench: Ted Lindsay, Bryan Trottier, Mark Messier

Wow....tough list....the Mess dont get to play.

 

[jBuds]

Whenever I gander around hockeydb, I always have to peep Gretzky's career numbers from Jr. thru NHL. It's absolutely amazing how much he scored.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

My take.

Goal:
Sawchuk, Plante, Hall, Roy and Hasek are a 5 way tie for #1. There are good arguments for all of them.

Defence:
1. Bobby Orr
2. Eddie Shore
3. Doug Harvey
4. Dennis Potvin
5. Slava Fetisov
6. Niklas Lidstrom
7. Ray Bourque
8. Red Kelly
9. Larry Robinson
10. Tim Horton

Forwards
1. Gordie Howe
2. Wayne Gretzky
3. Mario Lemieux
4. Jean Beliveau
5. Guy Lafleur
6. Jaromir Jagr
7. Bobby Hull
8. Valeri Kharlamov
9. Maurice Richard
10. Cyclone Taylor

 

[chooch*]

Okay so 3 goalies 6 defencemans 12 forwards
Mine:
Goalies:
1-Patrick Roy
2-Vladislav Trettiak
3-Jacques Plante
Defencemans:
1-Bobby Orr
2-Doug Harvey
3-Raymond Bourque
4-Paul Coffey
5-Larry Robinson
6-Eddie Shore/Denis Potvin
Forwards:
1-Wayne Gretzky
2-Mario Lemieux
3-Gordie Howe
4-Maurice Richard (my favourite, watch the movie)
5-Jean Beliveau
6-Bobby Hull
7-Guy Lafleur
8-Mike Bossy
9-Mark Messier
10-Phil Esposito
11-Valeri Vharlamov
12-Jari Curri

I've never seen most of them play because I'M 16 but from what i've heard it's a good list

Please post your list or comment mine

If you didnt see them play then youre like others here just peeing into the wind. Here's my top 20 from whom I saw play:

1. Mario Lemieux - was unstoppable in his prime like no other player; only player who is beyond reproach; was better at 36 in comeback year than any player on this list after #10 ever was.
2. Dominic Hasek - dominated 10 years like no goalie I saw; slight weirdo - not stable Ken Dryden type.
3. Bobby Orr - I saw only 3-4 of his great years and was unstoppable until Shero figured it out in 74...
4. Jaromir Jagr - the complete package, size, moves, excitement, shot, passing, just misses out by dopey sulk; looks so so in dress.
5. Guy Lafleur; 7-8 glory years; right wing could pass, skate, stickhandle and shoot; team player never trolled for points. Clutch. Nureyev of ice. Short changed on salary.
6. Phil Esposito - was the best of the best in 72; proved doubters wrong he would flop sans Orr. Leader of leaders.
7. Patrick Roy - iceman at 20. Will win Adams trophy.
8. Ray Bourque - complete package for a dman like no other. All class like Larry.
9. Ken Dryden - never gave up a back breaker goal. Save on Marcotte - you know which game...Save on Pappin -you know which game...
10. Bryan Trottier - icy stare like Mourning (Messier copied), complete package was best centre after Espo until Mario.
11. Vlad Tretiak - household name at 20, would have had Roy type career. Unlucky with glasnost too late.
12. Wayne Gretzky Ford - Most evenstrength goals against; most years a minus player. Fair passer. Coin toss picker.
13. Peter Stastny - dominated in all aspects of game; heart of lion, majestic leader. Need a tv movie on escape with bros.
14. Denis Potvin - smartest dman ever. brilliant shot. Unclassy way of ending careers with hip.
15. Larry Robinson - most respected dman ever after Orr. Shot, speed, passing, vision unparalleled for big man. Was fatigued by 33.
16. Bobby Clarke - Leader was brilliant passer and heart of a franchise; like an Yzerman with balls.
17. Mark Messier - Oil chose to keep 11 and dump 99. Won cup.
18. Brad Park - brilliantly skilled; hurt by arrogance..Mr Park I knew Orr, I went to school with Orr and you sir were no Orr.
19. Sergei Fedorov - as talented as anyone ever. Yes, ever.
20. Yvan Cournoyer - beep beep, scored clutch goals and was called The Train by ruskies. Looked to skate and shoot as soon as puck dropped.

Forsberg, Lapointe missing from this list. Didnt see ruskies enough to comment.

Piece of advice, kid: don't believe the hype, see with your own eyes. Or else..you're effed!

 

[Hockey Outsider]

12. Wayne Gretzky Ford - Most evenstrength goals against; most years a minus player. Fair passer. Coin toss picker.

You have a pretty good list, but this statement is completely wrong. Gretzky was a minus player just 6 times in 20 seasons. Only twelve players (and just TWO forwards, Carbonneau and Clarke) have had more "plus" seasons than Gretzky.

Most "Plus" Seasons
Name PM Plus Minus Played
Al MacInnis 373 22 0 22
Scott Stevens 390 21 0 21
Larry Robinson 730 20 0 20
Ray Bourque 528 19 3 22
Chris Chelios 295 17 3 20
Mike Ramsey 218 17 1 18
Steve Smith 143 16 6 22
Larry Murphy 200 16 5 21
Brad McCrimmon 444 16 2 18
Guy Carbonneau 186 15 4 19
Brad Park 358 15 2 17
Bobby Clarke 506 15 0 15
Mark Messier 207 14 10 24
Dave Andreychuk 60 14 7 21
Paul Coffey 294 14 7 21
James Patrick 93 14 6 20
Steve Yzerman 167 14 6 20
Wayne Gretzky 518 14 6 20
Brent Sutter 167 14 4 18
Bryan Trottier 452 14 4 18
Petr Svoboda 201 14 4 18
Joe Reekie 150 14 3 17
Bob Gainey 196 14 2 16
Mark Howe 400 14 2 16
Shawn Burr 118 14 2 16
Ulf Samuelsson 172 14 2 16
Rod Langway 277 14 1 15
Craig Ramsay 328 14 0 14
Jean Ratelle 299 14 0 14

Of course, I don't think plus/minus is a useful stat, but I'd like to set the record straight for those that do.

====

The other way of looking at it is: how does Gretzky rank in terms of most "minus" seasons? Well, by my count, 396 players have 7 or more "minus" seasons, so Gretzky is FAR from being the worst ever in that regard. (I'll refrain from posting the list here). Some players who also have six minus seasons include Yzerman, Stastny, Perreault, Leetch, Anderson, Sittler, Sakic, Recchi, Esposito, and Larionov. Gretzky is in pretty good company.

Disclaimer: this data is current only through the 2002-03 season and "+0" seasons are grouped in with "plus" seasons.

 

[Transported Upstater]

Dominic Hasek - dominated 10 years like no goalie I saw; slight weirdo - not stable Ken Dryden type.

chooch, you have to admit Dryden was DEFINIATELY an anomaly. He probably developed his calm demeanor in college...or at least I'd like to think so.

Goalies definitely have had a tendency through the years (especially in the past) of being really off their rockers. I'd say the Belfours, Billy Smiths, Hextalls, Pete Peeters' (he was weird too, if I remember correctly) are more common types than the Drydens.

And although I disagree in unbelieveably record-setting amounts with your list...I have to tell you, Hasek was the best goalie I've ever seen. That includes Roy and Brodeur, but no one from the early 80's on back.

 

[Talent Analyst]

Mario Lemieux is my best ever IMO

 

[Transported Upstater]

Mario Lemieux is my best ever IMO

You're not the only one who thinks that, and that is a VERY solid pick. Super Mario was GOD.

I have Orr first, then Gretz, then Lemieux, then Howe as my Top 4.

But I never saw Orr or Howe play.

 

[Quiet Robert]

...

799 jabs at Gretzky and counting!

Out of all the backhanded comments you've given Gretz, I love in this post how call him a "fair passer."

Keep 'em coming chooch.

 

[Ogopogo*]

If you didnt see them play then youre like others here just peeing into the wind. Here's my top 20 from whom I saw play:

1. Mario Lemieux - was unstoppable in his prime like no other player; only player who is beyond reproach; was better at 36 in comeback year than any player on this list after #10 ever was.
2. Dominic Hasek - dominated 10 years like no goalie I saw; slight weirdo - not stable Ken Dryden type.
3. Bobby Orr - I saw only 3-4 of his great years and was unstoppable until Shero figured it out in 74...
4. Jaromir Jagr - the complete package, size, moves, excitement, shot, passing, just misses out by dopey sulk; looks so so in dress.
5. Guy Lafleur; 7-8 glory years; right wing could pass, skate, stickhandle and shoot; team player never trolled for points. Clutch. Nureyev of ice. Short changed on salary.
6. Phil Esposito - was the best of the best in 72; proved doubters wrong he would flop sans Orr. Leader of leaders.
7. Patrick Roy - iceman at 20. Will win Adams trophy.
8. Ray Bourque - complete package for a dman like no other. All class like Larry.
9. Ken Dryden - never gave up a back breaker goal. Save on Marcotte - you know which game...Save on Pappin -you know which game...
10. Bryan Trottier - icy stare like Mourning (Messier copied), complete package was best centre after Espo until Mario.
11. Vlad Tretiak - household name at 20, would have had Roy type career. Unlucky with glasnost too late.
12. Wayne Gretzky Ford - Most evenstrength goals against; most years a minus player. Fair passer. Coin toss picker.
13. Peter Stastny - dominated in all aspects of game; heart of lion, majestic leader. Need a tv movie on escape with bros.
14. Denis Potvin - smartest dman ever. brilliant shot. Unclassy way of ending careers with hip.
15. Larry Robinson - most respected dman ever after Orr. Shot, speed, passing, vision unparalleled for big man. Was fatigued by 33.
16. Bobby Clarke - Leader was brilliant passer and heart of a franchise; like an Yzerman with balls.
17. Mark Messier - Oil chose to keep 11 and dump 99. Won cup.
18. Brad Park - brilliantly skilled; hurt by arrogance..Mr Park I knew Orr, I went to school with Orr and you sir were no Orr.
19. Sergei Fedorov - as talented as anyone ever. Yes, ever.
20. Yvan Cournoyer - beep beep, scored clutch goals and was called The Train by ruskies. Looked to skate and shoot as soon as puck dropped.

Forsberg, Lapointe missing from this list. Didnt see ruskies enough to comment.

Piece of advice, kid: don't believe the hype, see with your own eyes. Or else..you're effed!

Ipousse, as you can see, it is critical that your eyes are open when you are trying to see these players. You'd also be surprised how much better your list would be with a little bit of Wild Turkey and a healthy dose of personal hatred.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

12. Wayne Gretzky Ford - Most evenstrength goals against; most years a minus player. Fair passer. Coin toss picker.

Sorry dude, but even when he was way past his prime Gretzky was alot better than fair at passing. You can knock him all you like, but there's one thing that can never be denied, Gretz was a sublime passer.

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

If you didnt see them play then youre like others here just peeing into the wind. Here's my top 20 from whom I saw play:

1. Mario Lemieux - was unstoppable in his prime like no other player; only player who is beyond reproach; was better at 36 in comeback year than any player on this list after #10 ever was.
2. Dominic Hasek - dominated 10 years like no goalie I saw; slight weirdo - not stable Ken Dryden type.
3. Bobby Orr - I saw only 3-4 of his great years and was unstoppable until Shero figured it out in 74...
4. Jaromir Jagr - the complete package, size, moves, excitement, shot, passing, just misses out by dopey sulk; looks so so in dress.
5. Guy Lafleur; 7-8 glory years; right wing could pass, skate, stickhandle and shoot; team player never trolled for points. Clutch. Nureyev of ice. Short changed on salary.
6. Phil Esposito - was the best of the best in 72; proved doubters wrong he would flop sans Orr. Leader of leaders.
7. Patrick Roy - iceman at 20. Will win Adams trophy.
8. Ray Bourque - complete package for a dman like no other. All class like Larry.
9. Ken Dryden - never gave up a back breaker goal. Save on Marcotte - you know which game...Save on Pappin -you know which game...
10. Bryan Trottier - icy stare like Mourning (Messier copied), complete package was best centre after Espo until Mario.
11. Vlad Tretiak - household name at 20, would have had Roy type career. Unlucky with glasnost too late.
12. Wayne Gretzky Ford - Most evenstrength goals against; most years a minus player. Fair passer. Coin toss picker.
13. Peter Stastny - dominated in all aspects of game; heart of lion, majestic leader. Need a tv movie on escape with bros.
14. Denis Potvin - smartest dman ever. brilliant shot. Unclassy way of ending careers with hip.
15. Larry Robinson - most respected dman ever after Orr. Shot, speed, passing, vision unparalleled for big man. Was fatigued by 33.
16. Bobby Clarke - Leader was brilliant passer and heart of a franchise; like an Yzerman with balls.
17. Mark Messier - Oil chose to keep 11 and dump 99. Won cup.
18. Brad Park - brilliantly skilled; hurt by arrogance..Mr Park I knew Orr, I went to school with Orr and you sir were no Orr.
19. Sergei Fedorov - as talented as anyone ever. Yes, ever.
20. Yvan Cournoyer - beep beep, scored clutch goals and was called The Train by ruskies. Looked to skate and shoot as soon as puck dropped.

Forsberg, Lapointe missing from this list. Didnt see ruskies enough to comment.

Piece of advice, kid: don't believe the hype, see with your own eyes. Or else..you're effed!

Chooch!!! Welcome back, so glad to see the restraints off so you can type again.

 

[chooch*]

799 jabs at Gretzky and counting!

Out of all the backhanded comments you've given Gretz, I love in this post how call him a "fair passer."

Keep 'em coming chooch.

Thanks.

I was gonna say he kept the bench nice and wet, but...

 

[chooch*]

You have a pretty good list, but this statement is completely wrong. Gretzky was a minus player just 6 times in 20 seasons. Only twelve players (and just TWO forwards, Carbonneau and Clarke) have had more "plus" seasons than Gretzky.

Of course, I don't think plus/minus is a useful stat, but I'd like to set the record straight for those that do.

====

The other way of looking at it is: how does Gretzky rank in terms of most "minus" seasons? Well, by my count, 396 players have 7 or more "minus" seasons, so Gretzky is FAR from being the worst ever in that regard. (I'll refrain from posting the list here). Some players who also have six minus seasons include Yzerman, Stastny, Perreault, Leetch, Anderson, Sittler, Sakic, Recchi, Esposito, and Larionov. Gretzky is in pretty good company.

Disclaimer: this data is current only through the 2002-03 season and "+0" seasons are grouped in with "plus" seasons.

Thanks...it is an honest unbiased list from the years I watched. There's no personal hatred for anyone..I have Gretzky Ford at #12 out of the top 20 in 35 years of watching ...so that must be personal hatred becasue he's not #1?

I could have left him off entirely like Bossy or Brett Hull or Denis Savard all of whom were 1 dimensional players I had no use for. None of the other guys on my list were an embarassment on the ice. Cournoyer was a tough sob and not the one way guy some may think. 99 is by far the most one dimensional player on the list.

As usual your analyis above is very interesting but incomplete. I recall you came up with some points stats a while ago to "prove" that Gretzky Ford was succesful against the tough east teams in the 2 years he played in a balanced sked. Yet you left out any mention of his +/- in those games or if the Oilers had a winning record against those teams, or how any of those points came late in blowouts/empty nets etc etc etc. Pretty weak analysis to prove your point.

And again you dont quite mention in your post above if 99 has the most minus years of anyone on my list.

Or refute that he has by far the most evenstrength goals against of ANY PLAYER IN HISTORY. Why does he? Could it be that he was only a "fair passer"? He stood behind the net, something no other player who wanted to actually win a game woudl do and flipped passes out? Some connected, some were embarrssing turnovers leading to this stat.

I dont care if he had 14 plus years ... (a whack of other forwards had the same or more (a different view than the 2 forwards you stated "had more") ). A better way to look at it is that in fact he was a Total Minus for the last 12 years of a 19 year career.

Thats pathetic for someone reputedly the greatest ever.

btw I cant wait for Ogos new system (of finding a way to put Gretzky at the top of a list).


Bottom line, I like the guy, he's #12 out of 20.

 

[Kreativ]

Bottom line, I like the guy....

You sure about that?

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I could have left him off entirely like Bossy or Brett Hull or Denis Savard all of whom were 1 dimensional players I had no use for.

I understand your point, but there's a huge difference in how much Gretzky scored, compared to Bossy, Savard or Hull. (As an aside, I think you underrate Bossy's defensive game, he was quite solid in his own zone. I would have included him on the top 20 list.)

99 is by far the most one dimensional player on the list.

Not "by far", but you might otherwise be correct. Gretzky was not great defensively, but neither were Esposito, Jagr, Lemieux or even Stastny.

As usual your analyis above is very interesting but incomplete. I recall you came up with some points stats a while ago to "prove" that Gretzky Ford was succesful against the tough east teams in the 2 years he played in a balanced sked.

I remember reading that, but I didn't do any of the research. I believe it was Reckoning.

Yet you left out any mention of his +/- in those games or if the Oilers had a winning record against those teams, or how any of those points came late in blowouts/empty nets etc etc etc. Pretty weak analysis to prove your point.

Again, I don't think plus/minus is a valuable statistic, but maybe Reckoning has that info somewhere. It would be interesting to see. Also, the fact that Gretzky won four Cups with the Oilers is far more important than his teams' regular-season win percentage in the first two years of his career.

And again you dont quite mention in your post above if 99 has the most minus years of anyone on my list.

Messier has 10 minus seasons, and Lemieux has 7. Esposito and Stastny have 6. Gretzky also has 6.

Or refute that he has by far the most evenstrength goals against of ANY PLAYER IN HISTORY.

There's a lot of factors that go into that stat. One is longevity--on a per-game basis, Gretzky fares a bit better. Another is era--Gretzky played in the highest-scoring era in NHL history, so his numbers are somewhat higher than they should.

I do agree that Gretzky wasn't a great defensive player. I've never said otherwise. My viewpoint (and probably the viewpoint of 99% of people here) is that below-average defense is worth it when you score 200 points per year. If you win the scoring title by 70 pts, weak defense doesn't really matter. Even more important, Gretzky was possibly the most dominant playoff performer ever. Again, below-average regular season defense doesn't matter when you score 35 pts every spring.

A better way to look at it is that in fact he was a Total Minus for the last 12 years of a 19 year career.

Thats pathetic for someone reputedly the greatest ever.

Factually, you're correct, but my point is that there are more important measures of what makes a player great. Look at the big picture: during the last 12 years of his career (1988-1999), Gretzky scored 173 pts in 107 playoff games, won 1 Conn Smythe and 1 Stanley Cup and won 1 Hart and 3 Art Ross trophies.

 

[trevchar1971]

The truth of the matter is that there is Gretzky, Orr, Howe, and Lemieux....they are the greatest of all time.... and than theres everyone else. Not that there have been many valid arguments from everywhere, there are indeed many legends of hockey, but only these four can be IMO the undisputed titans of hockey.

 

[Transported Upstater]

The truth of the matter is that there is Gretzky, Orr, Howe, and Lemieux....they are the greatest of all time.... and than theres everyone else. Not that there have been many valid arguments from everywhere, there are indeed many legends of hockey, but only these four can be IMO the undisputed titans of hockey.

Agreed.

The Four Horsemen.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Thanks...it is an honest unbiased list from the years I watched. There's no personal hatred for anyone..I have Gretzky Ford at #12 out of the top 20 in 35 years of watching ...so that must be personal hatred becasue he's not #1?

It's not that he's not #1. It's that he's out of the top ten. It just really stretches your credibility to have such a fragrent outlier.

 

[Randall Graves*]

I love Chooch. Gretzky the man with more assists than anyone has points is a fair passer

 

[SGY19]

Goaltenders:
1. Sawchuk
2. Roy
3. Brodeur
4. Dryden
5. Hasek

Defencemen:
1.Orr
2.Shore
3.Harvey
4.Coffey
5.Bourque
6.Potvin
7.Robinson
8.Chelios
9.Lidstrom
10.Kelly
11.Fetisov
12.Park
13.Stevens
14.Horton
15.Clancy

Forwards:
1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Howe
4. Bobby Hull
5. Beliveau
6. Richard
7. LaFleur
8. Esposito
9. Messier
10. Morenz
11. Jagr
12. Bossy
13. Mikita
14. Trottier
15. Clarke
16. Lindsay
17. Francis
18. Sakic
19. Lalonde
20. Dionne
21. Schmidt
22. Mahovlich
23. Apps
24. Brett Hull
25. Forsberg
26. Fedorov
27. Delvecchio
28. Larionov
29. Kurri
30. Stastny

Captains:
1. Messier
2. Beliveau
3. Clarke
4. Sakic
5. Chelios
6. Stevens
7. Francis
8. Mario
9. Bourque
10. Delvecchio