WWE: Best Heel of the last 10 years?

[These Are The Days]

But... that's not what The Miz does?

I don't know how anyone can claim The Miz isn't a great heel. People legitimately want to see him get destroyed. He plays his role fantastically.

I can't explain it. The whole manner he conducts himself feels that way. Oh sure he does his job. To which I say "I'm not gonna listen to this rooster crow" and change channels. Sometimes I flip back and sure enough he's saying the same exact thing he did 3 weeks ago in his last feud.

I saw a comedian named Jeff Dye and he KILLED IT. Me and lady Sunny loved him so much we immediately bought tickets a few months later when he came back into town. Sadly he ran the same material as last time and I knew there was a risk of that happening. We still laughed our butts off but not gasping for air and tuning colors like the first time. I promise you by the fifth time we won't laugh at all because we've heard it already.

That's what Miz turned into with me long ago. Now it just feels like we I'm not touching you routine and is just obnoxious

 

[These Are The Days]

But anyway no more of that. I don't wanna hijack the thread.


I know this wasn't in the last decade but Muhammad mutha ****in Hassan!!!



Dude had potential beyond belief and I always said the greatest loss of my wrestling young adulthood was him not being champion

 

[Le Barron de HF]

I don't remember who it was (think it was Bischoff's book or a Cornette shoot) but I recall reading that their theory was that there are very few guys who love getting booed and feeling hated. Most heels want to be cool and edgy and get cheered. That's what differentiates a HHH and a Miz IMO. I used to think Miz was lame but then I had an epiphany and realized the dude is just solid in his role. He's come a long way since 2011 IMO.

 

[JackSlater]

No one here enjoys Apollo Crews because he's bland as can be but somehow we are supposed to cheer for him because that's the right thing to do? Come on... Heel wise I'm just looking for better than "obnoxious d-bag" because I feel it to be lazy. You could come out dressed as a rubber chicken and I won't care. Just offer me substance and workmanship.

As a football fan many years ago several fans and I showed up to another fanbases message board and went to the "nothing is off limits smack talk forum"and I was banned I don't know how many times because I would say things like "I'm guessing the Carolina school system doesn't teach proper grammar do they? What exactly goes on there? Building mountain dew shrines to Dale Earnhardt Jr in shop class?"

CM Punk used to do stuff like that and I would appreciate it but I'd hate the redundant nature of his SES lectures. Redundancy becomes obnoxious after a point and that's why I cannot praise the SES beyond the first few weeks to months

I understand what you are getting at. A heel is supposed to get a negative reaction in the sense that you want to watch them get beaten up. You were giving a negative reaction in that you just didn't want to see Punk/Miz anymore. That's part of the issue with differentiating between an effective heel and a guy who is getting "go away" heat. I don't agree with the assessment of those two wrestlers but I understand the main idea.

I don't remember who it was (think it was Bischoff's book or a Cornette shoot) but I recall reading that their theory was that there are very few guys who love getting booed and feeling hated. Most heels want to be cool and edgy and get cheered. That's what differentiates a HHH and a Miz IMO. I used to think Miz was lame but then I had an epiphany and realized the dude is just solid in his role. He's come a long way since 2011 IMO.

I don't know about Bischoff, but Cornette has talked about it in podcasts.

 

[Megahab]

So you want cool or funny heels? Aka cool characters, not heels who make you hate them and want you to pay to see them get their ***** kicked? Okay got it.

That's exactly what I want. What grown man actually hates a heel? It's all about characters and stories and the face overcoming the heel in wrestling.

 

[Le Barron de HF]

That's exactly what I want. What grown man actually hates a heel? It's all about characters and stories and the face overcoming the heel in wrestling.

It depends. Having a proper heel can go a long way into building babyfaces. Someone mentioned TV villains earlier, yes there are some like Hannibal who are hard to dislike but for those who've watched The Sopranos, it's hard to find a bigger ******* than Ralph. I rarely despise a character but that guy was just the worst. Wrestling needs more heels like Ralph and no I'm not talking about WCW Ralph

 

[dahrougem2]

That's exactly what I want. What grown man actually hates a heel? It's all about characters and stories and the face overcoming the heel in wrestling.

Well, when a heel starts to get cheered more than a babyface, I legitimately question whether or not they're actually playing the role of a heel anymore.

I can't stand the wishy-washy cookie-cutter babyfaces, but I legitimately wanted to see a guy like Daniel Bryan overcome The Authority, Randy Orton, and Batista on the way to Mania to win the title. I don't even think Orton and Batista did a great job being heels in the lead up, but they played their roles well enough to the point that I wanted to see the babyface overcome the odds and win.

The problem in this day and age isn't the heels, it's that creative can't be bothered to actually build up proper babyfaces. I've grown to respect Cena a lot more over the years but he still gets a 50/50 reaction. Reigns is near unanimously hated. Ambrose is too corny to be a babyface star. Rollins hasn't truly latched on with the fans. Balor is stuck in purgatory. Nakamura is likely to be mishandled. Zayn has been mishandled. They don't know how to slowly build babyfaces.

 

[GKJ]

A lot of people boo Cena because they conditioned themselves to just it anyways, or are just wanting to be cool.

 

[dahrougem2]

A lot of people boo Cena because they conditioned themselves to just it anyways, or are just wanting to be cool.

This is true. I never thought I would actually come to like the guy but he has grown on me over the years. Maybe it has to do with less exposure to him nowadays.

 

[GKJ]

This is true. I never thought I would actually come to like the guy but he has grown on me over the years. Maybe it has to do with less exposure to him nowadays.

That and a combination of having really good matches and making people look strong. Almost any PPV match he has is good for 3.5-4 stars these days, and that wasn't the case very often before the match with CM Punk at money in the bank.

 

[dahrougem2]

That and a combination of having really good matches and making people look strong. Almost any PPV match he has is good for 3.5-4 stars these days, and that wasn't the case very often before the match with CM Punk at money in the bank.

Also true. There's always a big-match feeling with his feuds, or most of his feuds, anyways. Then again, if a lot of wrestlers on the roster were given the freedom that Cena is afforded, I'm sure more stars would be built organically.

 

[M.C.G. 31]

Cena's awesome.

 

[JackSlater]

A lot of people boo Cena because they conditioned themselves to just it anyways, or are just wanting to be cool.

The way I see it, Cena has had three main problems as a face/wrestler - he was forced down everyone's throats, his hokey character once he ascended to the title picture and his goofy wrestling style (goofy move execution and poor selling). Only the first of those issues has been fixed in the last few years. He still has the hokey character who seems to mostly give platitudes and is likely to call his adversary by some asinine childish insult, which is frustrating when he clearly has the ability to cut great promos. His in ring ability has barely improved since 2005 sadly, but then again he's had little incentive to improve on basics.

 

[dahrougem2]

The way I see it, Cena has had three main problems as a face/wrestler - he was forced down everyone's throats, his hokey character once he ascended to the title picture and his goofy wrestling style (goofy move execution and poor selling). Only the first of those issues has been fixed in the last few years. He still has the hokey character who seems to mostly give platitudes and is likely to call his adversary by some asinine childish insult, which is frustrating when he clearly has the ability to cut great promos. His in ring ability has barely improved since 2005 sadly, but then again he's had little incentive to improve on basics.

I disagree on the last point. I think Cena's in-ring abilities have improved tenfold since 2005. You don't have matches like he has had with CM Punk, AJ Styles, etc if you aren't good in the ring.

 

[JackSlater]

I disagree on the last point. I think Cena's in-ring abilities have improved tenfold since 2005. You don't have matches like he has had with CM Punk, AJ Styles, etc if you aren't good in the ring.

I don't find any of his matches with Punk particularly great, thought the atmosphere in 2011 was great. Their Raw match (2013?) was good. His work with Styles that I have seen is fine but not great. I don't doubt that he can have an adequate match against a tremendous wrestler like Styles, but he could do that in the mid 2000s against an Angle too and I expect more from a guy that is the most prominent wrestler of his generation. I was more forgiving of Cena's ring work 12-13 years ago when he was still relatively new to wrestling, but any progression he had occurred at a snail's pace despite so much opportunity.

 

[GKJ]

The way I see it, Cena has had three main problems as a face/wrestler - he was forced down everyone's throats, his hokey character once he ascended to the title picture and his goofy wrestling style (goofy move execution and poor selling). Only the first of those issues has been fixed in the last few years. He still has the hokey character who seems to mostly give platitudes and is likely to call his adversary by some asinine childish insult, which is frustrating when he clearly has the ability to cut great promos. His in ring ability has barely improved since 2005 sadly, but then again he's had little incentive to improve on basics.

I'm not sure he's no-selling other people's promos like he used to. Maybe so for mid-card talents, but when it came to Punk, Rollins, and Styles, he was putting out good stuff. The last match with Styles he was almost cutting heel promos.

 

[dahrougem2]

I don't find any of his matches with Punk particularly great, thought the atmosphere in 2011 was great. Their Raw match (2013?) was good. His work with Styles that I have seen is fine but not great. I don't doubt that he can have an adequate match against a tremendous wrestler like Styles, but he could do that in the mid 2000s against an Angle too and I expect more from a guy that is the most prominent wrestler of his generation. I was more forgiving of Cena's ring work 12-13 years ago when he was still relatively new to wrestling, but any progression he had occurred at a snail's pace despite so much opportunity.

Maybe so, but it's so rare to see Cena out of his element during matches. He's pure WWE style through and through. For as much freedom as he has on the mic and with his feuds, he's extremely limited by WWE with his move set. Punches, shoulder tackles, clotheslines, side slam, five-knuckle-shuffle, AA. Rinse and repeat. His matches have never really been all that creative, but I believe he has the ability to have great matches with an expanded move set. But that's not something WWE wants IMO.

 

[JackSlater]

I'm not sure he's no-selling other people's promos like he used to. Maybe so for mid-card talents, but when it came to Punk, Rollins, and Styles, he was putting out good stuff. The last match with Styles he was almost cutting heel promos.

Fair point. That was certainly a frustrating trait that he picked up. The thing with Cena is that he definitely has it in him to cut great promos. The man can talk. He just rarely does it, and we can all likely guess the biggest reason why.

Maybe so, but it's so rare to see Cena out of his element during matches. He's pure WWE style through and through. For as much freedom as he has on the mic and with his feuds, he's extremely limited by WWE with his move set. Punches, shoulder tackles, clotheslines, side slam, five-knuckle-shuffle, AA. Rinse and repeat. His matches have never really been all that creative, but I believe he has the ability to have great matches with an expanded move set. But that's not something WWE wants IMO.

He may have the ability, but I'm not so sure. I agree that WWE has no interest in him doing different things in the ring and he has little incentive to do so. My issue isn't really his moveset though. I find the way he executes many of the moves cartoonish or goofy looking, and his selling is pretty inconsistent. Even the way he takes bumps is strange looking as he uses his ass all the time, though I can understand that he is protecting himself as the company workhorse.

You are right to say that Cena is WWE style through and through. That's part of the problem when looking at his in ring ability, and unlike most of the top guys he doesn't have experience elsewhere to draw from. A diverse wrestling background really does seem common to the best in ring performers.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

The only real problem I ever had with Cena's promos was his invoking of cancer children to pump his own tires. It was, is, and will continue to be a sleazy ********* move from Cena when he does it.

 

[rj]

I don't remember who it was (think it was Bischoff's book or a Cornette shoot) but I recall reading that their theory was that there are very few guys who love getting booed and feeling hated. Most heels want to be cool and edgy and get cheered. That's what differentiates a HHH and a Miz IMO. I used to think Miz was lame but then I had an epiphany and realized the dude is just solid in his role. He's come a long way since 2011 IMO.

This is part of why I just can't say the Young Bucks are super awesome. I know wrestlers such as them try to push a "heels and faces don't exist anymore" philosophy, but to me, once you've reached that point, we're just watching competitive artistic gymnastics. The Young Bucks want to be the heels, want to be super cool and edgy, and want to do all the high flying. You can high fly and get the fans to cheer or you can be heels, you can't do both at the same time and expect to raise your match to a higher level with me.

 

[Sheppy]

The only real problem I ever had with Cena's promos was his invoking of cancer children to pump his own tires. It was, is, and will continue to be a sleazy ********* move from Cena when he does it.

I absolutely hated when he would go from city to city and bring up sports teams for cheap pops. Bro, do you have 11 favorite NFL teams?

 

[Hypernova]

The only real problem I ever had with Cena's promos was his invoking of cancer children to pump his own tires. It was, is, and will continue to be a sleazy ********* move from Cena when he does it.

He also acted like he was a marine for years but then end every promo with but the guys over seas are the real heroes... so much pandering.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I absolutely hated when he would go from city to city and bring up sports teams for cheap pops. Bro, do you have 11 favorite NFL teams?

I can let crap like that slide. I mean it'll get an eye roll but I don't see it as egregious as what he does with the kids dealing with cancer. Because at least with the sports teams, there can be some back and forth with the heel. The cancer thing, there is absolutely no back and forth possible that would remotely come close to entertaining.

He also acted like he was a marine for years but then end every promo with but the guys over seas are the real heroes... so much pandering.

Yeah I don't care for the pandering of the military either and that also kind of falls under the same category of being an untouchable heel category. Because your heel can't play off of a promo like that unless it's just Rusev kicking a military guy lol but vocally it's not possible because of the backlash that would be inevitable. I'm not a fan of the military at all but it's obvious they are seen as untouchable when it comes to criticism in this country.

 

[GarbageGoal]

Anyone remember the story about The Miz coming out at a house show interrupting the National Anthem and it got a bunch of military people hot so they fired Fit Finlay because he supposedly told him to do it?

I absolutely hated when he would go from city to city and bring up sports teams for cheap pops. Bro, do you have 11 favorite NFL teams?

Remember when Punk called him the Yankees and THAT was the last straw!

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Remember when Punk called him the Yankees and THAT was the last straw!

But that was why I can live with all that nonsense because at least there was something for his opponent to work with that would be entertaining. How can a heel be a heel while still being able to toe that line of getting people mad at you but not to such a point that it costs them money by being portrayed as anti-cancer kid or anti-military because Cena just has to pull that card every now and then to justify his gimmick. lol