Best "half seasons"

[crobro]

ESA Tikkanen in Vancouver

 

[squaleca]

waynes 153 points in 51 games

 

[TheStatican]

waynes 153 points in 51 games

I'm more impressed by Mario's 137 in 47 in '89 tbh
Also had 144 points in 51 games, from game 2 to 52

Sure, slightly lower totals and pace 3.00 vs 2.91 ppg. However league scoring was lower in 1989 vs 1984, 7.48 vs 7.88. Accounting for that alone their numbers are more or less equal.

Some people might point out that the Pens and Mario benefited from an inordinate number of power plays that year. Fair enough, but does that really compensate for the difference in the quality of their teammates?

You tell me. Gretz hit his numbers playing with HoFer's in their prime; Kurri, Coffey, Messier & Anderson. When your playing with a cast of all-stars like that undoubtedly your going to dominate other teams at even strength. And they finished with 119 points in the standings.

Who did Mario play with? You don't even know do you? And by 'you' I mean practically everyone. The only thing Mario had that Wayne had was Coffey, other than that he had guys named Brown, Quinn & Errey. I'd if that wasn't so And the Pens finished with 87 points in the standings, 32 points less then the Oilers dynasty team of 84.

In case anyone's wondering, nope I don't have any problem with admitting that Gretzky was the greatest player ever. I mean you can't possibly rank someone who missed 600 games in his career and only played in about 60% of the time ahead of him. All I'm saying is that(imo) he had a more impressive half season/hot streak when considering all factors or at least the most important ones.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Who did Mario play with? You don't even know do you? And by 'you' I mean practically everyone. The only thing Mario had that Wayne had was Coffey, other than that he had guys named Brown, Quinn & Errey. I'd if that wasn't so And the Pens finished with 87 points in the standings, 32 points less then the Oilers dynasty team of 84.

Coffey was a tremendous player at that time.. but if we want to start talking about how their situations may have affected their production in those big streaks.. compare how many PPs Lemieux had in 88-89 vs. Gretzky in 83-84.. ALL of Lemieux's big seasons are PP driven.

You can see it clearly between the crackdown season of 95-96 and getting many less PPs in 96-97 before he gave up and retired.

 

[TheStatican]

if we want to start talking about how their situations may have affected their production in those big streaks.. compare how many PPs Lemieux had in 88-89 vs. Gretzky in 83-84..

Can you not read? I already acknowledged that in my post. But thanks for telling me about something I am already well aware of.

ALL of Lemieux's big seasons are PP driven.

You can see it clearly between the crackdown season of 95-96 and getting many less PPs in 96-97 before he gave up and retired.

Wrong.
Arguably his best year 92-93 was clearly NOT powerplay driven; 47 goals 49 assists 96 points in 60 games at even strength which would be 134 in a full season numbers approaching that of Gretzky during his dynasty team years.

Coffey was a tremendous player at that time..

Coffey was tremendous but not better than his Oiler days nevermind the disparity between their other linemates.

 

[TheStatican]

Added Wayne's & Mario's down years to Supreme Kings original list, which are still better than almost everyone else's

Gretzky '82 50-58-108
Gretzky '83 30-65-95
Gretzky '84 43-74-117 zero scoreless games
Gretzky '85 42-73-115
Gretzky '86 28-75-103
Gretzky '87 40-58-98
Gretzky '88 31-62-93 four 5+ point games, 3 scoreless games
Gretzky '89 29-59-88 two 5+ point games, 3 scoreless games
Gretzky '90 21-64-85 two 5+ point games, 5 scoreless games
Gretzky '91 25-50-75 two 5+ point games, 4 scoreless games
Gretzky '94 17-53-70 one 5+ point games, 12 scoreless games

Lemieux '88 40-47-87 two 5+ point games, 5 scoreless games
Lemieux '89 47-66-113(115 in 41) eight 5+ point games, 4 scoreless games
Lemieux '90 26-54-80 (82 in 41)two 5+ point games, 3 scoreless games
Lemieux '90 29-49-78 (80 in 41)two 5+ point games, 6 scoreless games
Lemieux '93 40-64-104(106 in 41) four 5+ point games, 4 scoreless games
Lemieux '96 42-62-104(109 in 41) three 5+ point games, 1 scoreless game
Lemieux '97 29-41-70 (74 in 41) one 5+ point games, 5 scoreless game
Lemieux '01 33-35-68 (71 in 41) zero 5+ point games, 6 scoreless game


From those numbers we can extrapolate the best final 40 games as well;
Gretzky '82 42-52-104
Gretzky '83 41-60-101
Gretzky '84 44-44-88 (in 34 games, 103 pace)
Gretzky '85 31-62-93
Gretzky '86 24-88-112
Gretzky '87 22-63-85
Gretzky '88 22-67-89 three 5+ point games, 5 scoreless games
Gretzky '90 25-57-82 two 5+ point games, 5 scoreless games
Gretzky '91 25-50-75 two 5+ point games, 5 scoreless games
Gretzky '92 19-74-93 two 5+ point games, 1 scoreless games

Lemieux '88 35-54-89 three 5+ point games, 5 scoreless games
Lemieux '89 42-53-95 (103 in 41) four 5+ point games, 5 scoreless games
Lemieux '90 34-55-89 (92 in 41) three 5+ point games, 1 scoreless games
Lemieux '92 25-62-87 (93 in 41) three 5+ point games, 4 scoreless games
Lemieux '93 46-62-108(110 in 41) five 5+ point games, 3 scoreless game
Lemieux '96 40-45-85 (86 in 41) four 5+ point games, 7 scoreless games


100 point half seasons - first 40 games
Gretzky '84 43-74-117
Gretzky '85 42-73-115
Lemieux '89 47-66-113
Gretzky '82 50-58-108
Lemieux '93 40-64-104
Lemieux '96 42-62-104
Gretzky '86 28-75-103

100 point half seasons - last 40 games
Gretzky '86 24-88-112
Lemieux '93 46-62-108
Gretzky '82 42-52-104
Lemieux '89 47-56-103* (ok you caught me - I cheated adding his 8 point gm in the 41st one :p)
Gretzky '83 41-60-101

Just crazy numbers

 

[Plural]

Regarding Greyzky and Lemieux. When it comes to chopping short-ish periods like half seasons the difference between them becomes marginal and you can legitimately make great cases for one being more impressive than the other on both sides. I'm in the camp that thinks Lemieux at his absolute best was in the same tier as Gretzky was. Which one you pick is matter of preference. Gretzky was at his best for substantially longer time which puts him ahead of Mario by sizeable margin. But on per game basis, there is little to nothing separating these two at their peak.

 

[TheStatican]

Regarding Greyzky and Lemieux. When it comes to chopping short-ish periods like half seasons the difference between them becomes marginal and you can legitimately make great cases for one being more impressive than the other on both sides. I'm in the camp that thinks Lemieux at his absolute best was in the same tier as Gretzky was. Which one you pick is matter of preference. Gretzky was at his best for substantially longer time which puts him ahead of Mario by sizeable margin. But on per game basis, there is little to nothing separating these two at their peak.

Thank you

I think most sensible people would agree with the following
Career; Gretzky >>> Lemieux
Prime; Gretzky > Lemieux
Peak; Gretzky = Lemieux

 

[TheStatican]

Here are the best 40 game stretches since 87-88 not including Gretzky & Lemieux. A total of 70 points or more has only be achieved 38 times since 1988. 66 & 99 have 12 all other players combined have 26. Jagr is next with 5 followed by Yzerman with 4 no one else has more than 2. Only the best 40 game stretch in each particular season is noted. The numbers were compiled from hockey-reference.com

38-50-88 Yzerman '89 games 16 to 55
38-48-86 Nicholls '89 first 40
19-66-85 Oates '91 games 21 to 60
35-47-82 Jagr '96 first 40 (96 in first 48)
49-31-80 Hull '91 game 27 to 66
40-38-78 Yzerman '90 games 27 to 66
28-50-78 Yzerman '93 games 44 to 83
37-38-75 LaFontaine '92 games 11 to 50
26-49-75 LaFontaine '93 first 40
48-26-74 Mogilny '93 games 28 to 67
23-51-74 Savard '87 first 40
43-30-73 Selanne '93 games 41 to 80
28-45-73 Jagr '01 last 40 (85 in last 45)
33-39-72 Jagr '97 games 14 to 53
33-39-72 Jagr '02 first 40
23-49-72 Jagr '00 games 32 to 71
33-39-72 Yzerman '88 games 21 to 60
29-43-72 Oates '93 games 19 to 58
20-52-72 Francis '96 first 40
38-33-71 Stevens '93 games 2 to 41
33-38-71 Stevens '92 games 12 to 51
28-43-71 Brown '89 games 4 to 34
25-46-71 Messier '90 games 39 to 78
19-51-71 Crosby '07 games 17 to 56 last time anyone had 70 or more within a season
30-40-70 Fedorov '94 first 40
28-42-70 Turgeon '93 games 25 to 64
honourable mention; Gilmour 69 in '93

Last time anyone had 70 or more points in a 40 game stretch over more than one season was Crosby;
28-44-72 from games 14 to 41 in '11 and then games 1 to 12 in '12


5 Best 40 games to start a season, ranking including 66 & 99 best are in quotations () for both since 88, [] including Gretzky since 82
1.(7)[13] 38-48-86 Nicholls '89 (172 point pace!)
2.(9)[15] 37-45-82 Yzerman '89
3.(10)[16] 35-47-82 Jagr '96
4.(13)[19] 26-49-75 LaFontaine '93
5.(15)[21] 23-51-74 Savard '87

5 Best 40 games to end a season
1.(10)[16] 19-62-81 Oates '91
2.(11)[17] 48-30-78 Hull '91
3.(12)[18] 27-50-77 Yzerman '93
4.(14)[20] 28-45-73 Jagr '01
5.(15)[21] 23-46-69 Messier '90

It's likely that Esposito, Orr, Dionne, Bossy, Kurri & Lafleur possibly others would have some half seasons squeezed in there too.

Other notables
Lindros best was 68 in '97
Thornton's best was 67 in '07
Ovechkin's best was 67 in '10
Forsberg's best was 66 in '03
Kovalchuk best was surprisingly 66 in '06
Geno's best was 64 in '12
Sakic's best was 63 in '01
Alfredsson best was 63 in '06
Kariya's best was 62 in '97
Kaner's best was 59 in '16
and 'McJesus' best so far was 52 last year but I'm sure he'll improve upon that.

 

[Plural]

Thank you

I think most sensible people would agree with the following
Career; Gretzky >>> Lemieux
Prime; Gretzky > Lemieux
Peak; Gretzky = Lemieux

That sounds about right to me. Of course it's always subjective and people have different preferences. But most people tend to agree with the idea that at their best they were different kind of players but one was not clearly better than the other. Mario was probably bit more of a one man show (which is crazy considering tha Gretzky has the insane leads over his team-mates too) and Gretzky was more efective in using his linemates (which is also crazy since Lemieux is one of the greatest set-up players of all-time). Which one you pick is just a matter of preference.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Arguably his best year 92-93 was clearly NOT powerplay driven; 47 goals 49 assists 96 points in 60 games at even strength which would be 134 in a full season numbers approaching that of Gretzky during his dynasty team years.

The average team had 40 more PPs in 92-93 than the previous year and it was a very unusual year for the distribution of scoring among forwards.. I think because of the TV timeout.

You're correct that Lemieux did better at ES that season than I recall, but it is also a season where your teammate argument doesn't apply since the Penguins were stacked.

Thank you

I think most sensible people would agree with the following
Career; Gretzky >>> Lemieux
Prime; Gretzky > Lemieux
Peak; Gretzky = Lemieux

Mostly agree with this except for the peak argument because you have to slice things very definitively in Lemieux's favour for that to be the case. He's still the closest there has ever been the Gretzky, though.

 

[threetimer*]

Here are the best 40 game stretches since 87-88 not including Gretzky & Lemieux. A total of 70 points or more has only be achieved 38 times since 1988. 66 & 99 have 12 all other players combined have 26. Jagr is next with 5 followed by Yzerman with 4 no one else has more than 2. Only the best 40 game stretch in each particular season is noted. The numbers were compiled from hockey-reference.com

38-50-88 Yzerman '89 games 16 to 55
38-48-86 Nicholls '89 first 40
19-66-85 Oates '91 games 21 to 60
35-47-82 Jagr '96 first 40 (96 in first 48)
49-31-80 Hull '91 game 27 to 66
40-38-78 Yzerman '90 games 27 to 66
28-50-78 Yzerman '93 games 44 to 83
37-38-75 LaFontaine '92 games 11 to 50
26-49-75 LaFontaine '93 first 40
48-26-74 Mogilny '93 games 28 to 67
23-51-74 Savard '87 first 40
43-30-73 Selanne '93 games 41 to 80
28-45-73 Jagr '01 last 40 (85 in last 45)
33-39-72 Jagr '97 games 14 to 53
33-39-72 Jagr '02 first 40
23-49-72 Jagr '00 games 32 to 71
33-39-72 Yzerman '88 games 21 to 60
29-43-72 Oates '93 games 19 to 58
20-52-72 Francis '96 first 40
38-33-71 Stevens '93 games 2 to 41
33-38-71 Stevens '92 games 12 to 51
28-43-71 Brown '89 games 4 to 34
25-46-71 Messier '90 games 39 to 78
19-51-71 Crosby '07 games 17 to 56 last time anyone had 70 or more within a season
30-40-70 Fedorov '94 first 40
28-42-70 Turgeon '93 games 25 to 64
honourable mention; Gilmour 69 in '93

Last time anyone had 70 or more points in a 40 game stretch over more than one season was Crosby;
28-44-72 from games 14 to 41 in '11 and then games 1 to 12 in '12


5 Best 40 games to start a season, ranking including 66 & 99 best are in quotations () for both since 88, [] including Gretzky since 82
1.(7)[13] 38-48-86 Nicholls '89 (172 point pace!)
2.(9)[15] 37-45-82 Yzerman '89
3.(10)[16] 35-47-82 Jagr '96
4.(13)[19] 26-49-75 LaFontaine '93
5.(15)[21] 23-51-74 Savard '87

5 Best 40 games to end a season
1.(10)[16] 19-62-81 Oates '91
2.(11)[17] 48-30-78 Hull '91
3.(12)[18] 27-50-77 Yzerman '93
4.(14)[20] 28-45-73 Jagr '01
5.(15)[21] 23-46-69 Messier '90

It's likely that Esposito, Orr, Dionne, Bossy, Kurri & Lafleur possibly others would have some half seasons squeezed in there too.

Other notables
Lindros best was 68 in '97
Thornton's best was 67 in '07
Ovechkin's best was 67 in '10
Forsberg's best was 66 in '03
Kovalchuk best was surprisingly 66 in '06
Geno's best was 64 in '12
Sakic's best was 63 in '01
Alfredsson best was 63 in '06
Kariya's best was 62 in '97
Kaner's best was 59 in '16
and 'McJesus' best so far was 52 last year but I'm sure he'll improve upon that.

I bet you my annual salary Jagr never scored 72 points in 40 games during 2002. That sounds more like 1999.

 

[threetimer*]

Oh and btw, whenever two relatively even players/goalies are compared, especially with the "as far as the peak goes, they were really close" connotation, I look at their H2H.

If they, at some point, truly were the best of the best, how they fared in their direct confrontation is very important and sometimes also telling of which one of them was starstruck, thus very likely convinced about their own inferiority.

And in extreme cases where the stat is extremely one-sided, I totally trust their subconscious.

Gretzky totally owned Lemieux almost every time they played one another. Clearly, one guy got unusually shaky facing the other one. I trust his subconscious.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Gretzky totally owned Lemieux almost every time they played one another. Clearly, one guy got unusually shaky facing the other one. I trust his subconscious.

That's true. Even post-Oilers Gretzky seemed to have Lemieux's number.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Burns for the first half this year. It won him the Norris.

 

[TheStatican]

I bet you my annual salary Jagr never scored 72 points in 40 games during 2002. That sounds more like 1999.

Hey now, I never agreed to that bet!

Yup it was his first 40 in 99-00
And the 23-49-72 Jagr '00 games 32 to 71 was 98-99

guess my years got jumbled up from seeing too many Jagr's in a row

 

[The Panther]

From those numbers we can extrapolate the best final 40 games as well;
Gretzky '82 42-52-104
Gretzky '83 41-60-101
Gretzky '84 44-44-88 (in 34 games, 103 pace)
Gretzky '85 31-62-93
Gretzky '86 24-88-112
Gretzky '87 22-63-85
Gretzky '88 22-67-89 three 5+ point games, 5 scoreless games
Gretzky '90 25-57-82 two 5+ point games, 5 scoreless games
Gretzky '91 25-50-75 two 5+ point games, 5 scoreless games
Gretzky '92 19-74-93 two 5+ point games, 1 scoreless games

Are you sure these are correct? For example, in '88 (by which I assume you mean 1987-88), Gretzky played 38 games in the first half of the season, and 26 in the second half of the season.

(Checks)

Well, he scored 63 points in the final 26 games in 1987-88. (In the first half, he had scored 86 points in 38 games.)

1991 is not correct, as well. That season (i.e, 1990-91) he scored 89 points in the final 39 games (he missed one game in the second half).

1992 should be 65 points in the final 39 games (he missed one).

 

[NyQuil]

Is Alfredsson the only inactive guy on these lists that isn't in the HoF?

 

[TheStatican]

Are you sure these are correct? For example, in '88 (by which I assume you mean 1987-88), Gretzky played 38 games in the first half of the season, and 26 in the second half of the season.

(Checks)

Well, he scored 63 points in the final 26 games in 1987-88. (In the first half, he had scored 86 points in 38 games.)

1991 is not correct, as well. That season (i.e, 1990-91) he scored 89 points in the final 39 games (he missed one game in the second half).

1992 should be 65 points in the final 39 games (he missed one).

Oops. What happened was I missed a year - 1988-89.
So 90 was 89, 91 was 90 and 92 was 91.

Also didn't try to figure out where he missed his games, as with all the other players on the previous lists. It's strictly their production from the final 40 games they played in their respective seasons. Except for Gretz in 84 since I don't have access to the games logs. But seeing as how you do could you list what his cumulative production was there in his last 40 gp?

 

[Brucelenok]

Ovechkin 2009-2010 pre-Olympic. He played that part of the season like Top 5 player of all time considering the era.

 

[The Panther]

Since I have the Gretzky-stats in front of me now, I thought I'd post his 1/2-season stats for his entire career. I'll just the point-totals for his team's first and second halves, regardless of how many games Wayne played. (However, in parentheses, I'll indicate if Wayne missed games and how many):

1979-80 (40 games)

1st half 58 PTS (missed 1 game)
2nd half 79 PTS

1980-81 (40 games)

1st half 70 PTS
2nd half 94 PTS

1981-82 (40 games)

1st half 108 PTS
2nd half 104 PTS

1982-83 (40 games)

1st half 95 PTS
2nd half 101 PTS

1983-84 (40 games)

1st half 117 PTS
2nd half 88 PTS (missed 6 games)

1984-85 (40 games)

1st half 115 PTS
2nd half 93 PTS

1985-86 (40 games)

1st half 103 PTS
2nd half 112 PTS

1986-87 (40 games)

1st half 98 PTS
2nd half 85 PTS (missed 1 game)

1987-88 (40 games)

1st half 86 PTS (missed 2 games)
2nd half 63 PTS (missed 14 games)

1988-89 (40 games)

1st half 88 PTS (missed 1 game)
2nd half 80 PTS (missed 1 game)

1989-90 (40 games)

1st half 85 PTS
2nd half 57 PTS (missed 7 games)

1990-91 (40 games)

1st half 75 PTS
2nd half 88 PTS (missed 2 games)

1991-92 (40 games)

1st half 56 PTS (missed 5 games)
2nd half 65 PTS (missed 1 game)

1992-93 (42 games)

1st half 6 PTS (missed 39 games)
2nd half 59 PTS

1993-94 (42 games)

1st half 71 PTS
2nd half 59 PTS (missed 3 games)

1995 (24 games)

1st half 21 PTS
2nd half 27 PTS

1995-96 (41 games)

1st half 60 PTS
2nd half 42 PTS (missed 5 games)

1996-97 (41 games)

1st half 54 PTS
2nd half 43 PTS

1997-98 (41 games)

1st half 36 PTS
2nd half 54 PTS

1998-99 (41 games)

1st half 42 PTS
2nd half 20 PTS (missed 12 games)


It's amusing to think that if Gretzky had been allowed to play only 1/2-seasons through his career, he'd still have had several 100+ point seasons.

Along with the even-strength point-production decline, you can also see how his overall stats decline after the September 1991 'Suter-ing' (combined with the emotional weight of his father's aneurysm that October). And I think in 1993-94, you can see his focus decline as it becomes clear that the Kings are going nowhere (missing the playoffs). That year he had 87 points in 47 games (155-point pace), and thereafter 43 points in his last 34 games (106-point pace). In addition, after scoring his 802nd career goal against Vancouver (at which point he had 37 goals in 73 games), he needed only 3 goals in the last 11 games to crack 40+ again. However, he skipped the last three games of the season and scored only once in his last eight. Basically, he didn't care anymore.

The Rangers' years are interesting. His first year there, as late as December 21st, Gretzky was actually leading the NHL in scoring (1 point over Lemieux). After that, he started to slow down and Mario heated up and left him behind. Still, Wayne was on a 108-point pace in the first half, but couldn't maintain it. Famously, his second year had a poor-pace first half and then a more torrid second-half, with 54 points (same as the first half of the previous year). And I hadn't realized he was actually still over a point-per-game in 1998-99 through the first half. Started to slow down in his last February, however, and then a 12-game injury pretty much finished him off. When he came back to end his career, he scored only 5 points in his final 12 games.

 

[Plural]

It's amusing to think that if Gretzky had been allowed to play only 1/2-seasons through his career, he'd still have had several 100+ point seasons.

Thanks for the stats. And yes, especially amusing when you realize that if we count all his half seasons (twice he broke the 100pt. barrier in both ends of the season) he has 7 100pt. seasons, which would be tied for 3rd most all-time.

If we take the stricter route, and only give him one 100pt. season per season, he still gets to 5, which would put him tied for 14th all-time.

I think in every sense, literally, if you cut Gretzky's career in half he's still a Hall of Famer and not only a run of the mill Hall of Famer, but a high end one.

 

[The Panther]

Thanks for the stats. And yes, especially amusing when you realize that if we count all his half seasons (twice he broke the 100pt. barrier in both ends of the season) he has 7 100pt. seasons, which would be tied for 3rd most all-time.

If we take the stricter route, and only give him one 100pt. season per season, he still gets to 5, which would put him tied for 14th all-time.

I think in every sense, literally, if you cut Gretzky's career in half he's still a Hall of Famer and not only a run of the mill Hall of Famer, but a high end one.

In one regular season, he had 59 goals and 124 points only on home-ice. You can't make this stuff up...