Best Executive in NHL History?

[Sixty Six]

No love for Craig Patrick? I dunno if he is the best but should atleast be mentioned.

here are two good stories about Herb Brooks, just seemed like a good place to put them... he was talking about this guy the pens had on the ice one training camp and said there is something about him, he can definately play... well as the story goes the pens waived him anyway but he cleared and started off as our 7th dman that year. That player was Dick Tarnstrom. The other is in every round after the first Herb tried to get the pens to draft Ryan Malone, well he fell far enough where the pens eventually took him. The one thing about herb is he saw something no one else could sometimes as a scout. RIP herbie

 

[Frightened Inmate #2]

Holland is good, but he inherited a team that already won the cup. Best today I say Lou Lam followed by Lacroix.

If you want to use that logic Lacroix inherited a team that had a great number of very good young prospects. he isn't close to being on the top of the list because really he hasn't proven that he can really build a team and that is what I think should be looked at when determining greatness.

 

[Hasbro]

If you want to use that logic Lacroix inherited a team that had a great number of very good young prospects. he isn't close to being on the top of the list because really he hasn't proven that he can really build a team and that is what I think should be looked at when determining greatness.

That he did, however Holland assumed the GM title in 1998 literaly inheriting a Stanley cup winning team. Yet there isn't exactly a true hard fast definition of "built a winnner" Lacroix's had a contending team for 10 years with just 3 men staying on the roster during that time.

 

[Hasbro]

No love for Craig Patrick? I dunno if he is the best but should atleast be mentioned.

Graduate of the University of Denver (his stint as AD there should have preped him for this Pens mess) Seems like his career is on hold till the Quins financils situation gets sorted out.

 

[Sixty Six]

Graduate of the University of Denver (his stint as AD there should have preped him for this Pens mess) Seems like his career is on hold till the Quins financils situation gets sorted out.

The pens mess really has nothing to do with Patrick he was forced to make the moves with jagr and kovy, but has more than made up for it, because we wouldn't have those two cups w/o him

 

[Hasbro]

The pens mess really has nothing to do with Patrick he was forced to make the moves with jagr and kovy, but has more than made up for it, because we wouldn't have those two cups w/o him

I wasn't blaming him, and I really like the guy. He was in a simular situation at DU when the University was on the verge of collapsing.

I hate name dropping, but the few times I met him at DU he was always aproachable and would talk to people. And it wasn't expecting people to kiss his rings.

 

[ClassicHockey]

Selke & Pollock

You can't argue with success and both Frank Selke Sr. & Sam Pollock created dynasties. The Leafs won 4 cups in 5 years from 1947-51 and that was mainly due to Frank Selke's scouting and farm system. When Selke left the Leafs, and with Smythe making the decisions, the Leaf had a long dry spell before they became contenders again. Then Selke goes to Montreal and with the same successful formula, he builds another dynasty.
I find Sam Pollock to be an interesting case. Yes, there was the rule where the Canadiens were allowed to pick the 2 best French-Canadien players before the other teams picked. But that only got them a few players - Tardif & Houle, the most notable. How that rule was ever passed in the first place is probably a good story.
But what intrigues me about Sam Pollock is the expansion draft of 1967. The NHL had given to Pollock the task of creating the system where the 6 new teams would stock their teams with players. Surely, all the details and possible loopholes would have been given to the other general managers in the 5 other cities who were to lose their players. Yet, Pollock was the only one who made shrewd moves by sending excess players to the new teams so that they would leave certain Hab players alone. Surely, the other teams had the type of players to make the same deals. The Leafs did but they had an absolutely terrible draft by letting a lot of their younger players go and 'filling' with minor leaguers 35 years old and up with no future. I think part of that was the arrogance of Punch Imlach having just won a Stanley Cup and thinking that no one else could out-smart him.
But what really is interesting is that how did Pollock convince the expansion teams to give up those first round draft picks for really nothing at all. All the other teams, except Boston later on, did not attempt to make those moves.
Were those General managers not aware of exactly what they were giving up? Were they uninformed? Did the other 5 original 6 teams not understand the expansion rules? Or was Sam Pollock such a great salesman? I think he probably was smarter and certainly more experienced than the general managers he was taking advantage of. No matter how he made the moves, his success over a long period of time hasn't been matched and probably won't be.

 

[Lowetide]

But what intrigues me about Sam Pollock is the expansion draft of 1967. The NHL had given to Pollock the task of creating the system where the 6 new teams would stock their teams with players. Surely, all the details and possible loopholes would have been given to the other general managers in the 5 other cities who were to lose their players. Yet, Pollock was the only one who made shrewd moves by sending excess players to the new teams so that they would leave certain Hab players alone.

Very good point. Boston had a terrible expansion draft, losing HOFer Berner Parent as well as many quality players (Joe Watson, Gary Dornhoefer, JP Parise, Bill Goldsworthy, more) but had already made the Esposito deal. Detroit's Sid Abel must have smoked a doob before submitting his protected list. In Punch Imlach's first book he details a trade negotiation where the Wings wanted one of his players and he asked for Bob Wall and Real Lemieux in return. Abel balked. A few days later, both were lost to L.A. in the expansion draft.

NYR didn't have the depth of some of the other teams, and Imlach also had a devastating expansion draft. He lost most of the youth in his system while hanging on to over the hill players.

Pollock made so many trades with the North Stars they almost beat him in the playoffs a few years later. Other than that, he ran circles around the bunch of them (save Poile and later Allen in Philadelphia).

But what really is interesting is that how did Pollock convince the expansion teams to give up those first round draft picks for really nothing at all. All the other teams, except Boston later on, did not attempt to make those moves.

Were those General managers not aware of exactly what they were giving up? Were they uninformed? Did the other 5 original 6 teams not understand the expansion rules? Or was Sam Pollock such a great salesman? I think he probably was smarter and certainly more experienced than the general managers he was taking advantage of. No matter how he made the moves, his success over a long period of time hasn't been matched and probably won't be.

I think Boston did trade Rosaire Paiement early on for a high pick, probably summer 1967.

But your point is well taken. The original 6 clubs would have cruised into summer 1967 with a maximum of 180 players on their sponsor lists. There is little doubt Montreal's list was the strongest, and proof would roll out over a decade as players as varied as Ken Dryden, Chico Resch and Bob Berry all climbed out of the wood work.

Enjoyed your post.

 

[ClassicHockey]

Thanks, yours was very informative as well.

Another thing about the expansion draft that bothered me was the 'fills', As an original 6 team lost a player, then they would 'fill' and protect another one of its players. If you looked at the 'fills' list about half way down, you will see young Montreal players like Savard, Vadnais, Lemaire (not sure if I remember the right names). Players with that sort of potential surely would have been picked up well before the mid rounds of the draft. It just didn't make sense and Pollock couldn't have possibly had made deals for all those players. If they were exempt because of their age, then why did they have be protected mid draft by being 'filled' and protected? I asked someone who was at the St. Louis draft table in '67 about that and he said that it might have been because of the expansion rules that were drawn up at the time. Those young players didn't have to be protected originally but would later on in the draft. It seemed to me that was another one of Pollocks ideas to make sure that Montreal would not be hurt in the draft.
No one has ever brought this up before. Has anyone seen the draft lists in 1967 and questioned the process?

 

[Lowetide]

Another thing about the expansion draft that bothered me was the 'fills', As an original 6 team lost a player, then they would 'fill' and protect another one of its players. If you looked at the 'fills' list about half way down, you will see young Montreal players like Savard, Vadnais, Lemaire (not sure if I remember the right names). Players with that sort of potential surely would have been picked up well before the mid rounds of the draft. It just didn't make sense and Pollock couldn't have possibly had made deals for all those players. If they were exempt because of their age, then why did they have be protected mid draft by being 'filled' and protected? I asked someone who was at the St. Louis draft table in '67 about that and he said that it might have been because of the expansion rules that were drawn up at the time. Those young players didn't have to be protected originally but would later on in the draft. It seemed to me that was another one of Pollocks ideas to make sure that Montreal would not be hurt in the draft.
No one has ever brought this up before. Has anyone seen the draft lists in 1967 and questioned the process?

Yes, that is correct. Several players we see on the list were eligible only after round 10. The Habs protected-pullback list was thus:

1-Charlie Hodge
pullback-Rogie Vachon
2-Gary Bauman
no pullback
3-Dave Balon
pullback-Claude Larose
4-Jimmy Roberts
pullback-Claude Provost
5-gord labossiere
no pullback
6-noel picard
no pullback
7-Jean Guy Talbot
no pullback
8-Leon Rochefort
pullback-Dick Duff
9-Noel Price
pullback-CAROL VADNAIS
10-Joe Szura
pullback-SERGE SAVARD
11-Keith McCreary
pullback-JACQUES LEMAIRE

Lemaire was available, but from what I have been able to gather was not rated as highly as Savard and Vadnais. The September 1967 Hockey News mentions both of those players as being front line candidates to make the team. Up front, they focus on Mickey Redmond, then mention Gary Monahan, Danny Grant, Jim Paterson, Lucien Grenier and Jacques Lemaire as the final prospect.

Seems in his case to be a player who emerged at exactly that time as an NHL calibre player. He played LW most of the 67-68 season (some center) and I believe finished second in Calder voting.

 

[Malefic74]

The funny thing is that Pollock originally recommended a 2 to 5 (!) year moritorium on trading draft choices after the expansion. He explained that the clubs could mature with these players and though they might suffer a little in the short term for two or three years they would all find themselves with a solid nucleus in five.

The other clubs turned the suggestion down. They wanted marketable names and instant success (or at least mediocrity). Remember that Pollock was sitting on top of the farm and scouting system that had been set up by Selke so he knew where the young talent was and how much was there. He played the expansion clubs against one another for his veterans so he would get the best value picks he could.

Great example in 1971. Lafleur at #1, Chuck Arnason at #7, Murray Wilson at #11, Larry Robinson at #20. Later picks like Greg Hubick, Mike Busniuk and Peter Sullivan would later be flipped for more draft picks. Lafleur of course was obtained by sending Eric Hicke to Oakland in 1970 for thir #1 pick in 1971. The story goes that Pollock realized he'd made a mistake and that the Seals became too good and he needed them to finish last so he sent Ralph Backstrom to the Kings to make sure. The Seals finished at the bottom and Guy Lafleur was a Hab.

 

[ClassicHockey]

Expansion draft

Thanks for the list and the confirmation. The success that Montreal had in the draft paid dividends for years (thanks to Sam Pollock).
Regarding this 'great expansion' of 1967, considering how important it was to NHL history, there has been very little done on it. As far as I know, there hasn't been a documentary or book on the subject. Yet, there would probably be interesting story lines on the stratagies, backroom deals & results of the draft.

Another thing about the draft that seemed odd was the behaviour of the Toronto Maple Leafs. Could you please list the drafted players and the pullbacks for Toronto?

What intrigues me is that Imlach pulled back a number of career minor leaguers who were at the end of their minor league careers!! - Most were players with their Rochester farm club.

There have been stories that the Leafs went downhill because they sold off their Rochester & Victoria minor league teams and players. If that is true, then how could those same players be available for the expansion draft?

Stellick & Cox in their book '67 talk a little about the selling of the farm teams but their explanation doesn't go far enough. They talk about a one time recall of those 'sold' players. But that particular book has numerous factual errors and misinterpretations so I'm not sure I want to rely on that book for accurate info.

Anybody have any ideas on the Leaf strategy of pulling back guys like Les Duff, Norm Armstrong etc.? Were they forced to by the sale agreements? Did Imlach go mad?

Yes, that is correct. Several players we see on the list were eligible only after round 10. The Habs protected-pullback list was thus:

1-Charlie Hodge
pullback-Rogie Vachon
2-Gary Bauman
no pullback
3-Dave Balon
pullback-Claude Larose
4-Jimmy Roberts
pullback-Claude Provost
5-gord labossiere
no pullback
6-noel picard
no pullback
7-Jean Guy Talbot
no pullback
8-Leon Rochefort
pullback-Dick Duff
9-Noel Price
pullback-CAROL VADNAIS
10-Joe Szura
pullback-SERGE SAVARD
11-Keith McCreary
pullback-JACQUES LEMAIRE

Lemaire was available, but from what I have been able to gather was not rated as highly as Savard and Vadnais. The September 1967 Hockey News mentions both of those players as being front line candidates to make the team. Up front, they focus on Mickey Redmond, then mention Gary Monahan, Danny Grant, Jim Paterson, Lucien Grenier and Jacques Lemaire as the final prospect.

Seems in his case to be a player who emerged at exactly that time as an NHL calibre player. He played LW most of the 67-68 season (some center) and I believe finished second in Calder voting.

 

[salzy]

If you want to use that logic Lacroix inherited a team that had a great number of very good young prospects. he isn't close to being on the top of the list because really he hasn't proven that he can really build a team and that is what I think should be looked at when determining greatness.

I DO want to use that logic and I agree with you. I think Lacroix is a close second to Holland as far as overrated GMs go. The best thing he ever did was orchestrate the trade of his former client to his team.

 

[Lowetide]

Could you please list the drafted players and the pullbacks for Toronto?

To the best of my knowledge:

1-Terry Sawchuk (pullback-Al Smith)
2-Gary Smith (no pullback)
3-Bob Baun (Murray Oliver)
4-Kent Douglas (Allan Stanley)
5-Eddie Joyal (no pullback)
6-Al Arbour (no pullback)
7-Brit Selby (no pullback)
8-Larry Jeffrey (George Armstrong)
9-Don Blackburn (Duane Rupp)
10-Darryl Edestrand (Darrly Sly)
11-Terry Clancy (Red Kelly)
12-Larry Keenan (Gerry Ehman)
13-Mike Corrigan (Dick Gamble)
14-Autry Erickson (Don Cherry)
15-Fred Hucul (Norm Armstrong)
16-Mike Laughton (Bronco Horvath)
17-Lowell MacDonald (Les Duff)
18-John Brenneman (Barry Watson)
19-Bill Flett (Stan Smrke)
20-Gary Veneruzzo (Milan Marcetta)

What intrigues me is that Imlach pulled back a number of career minor leaguers who were at the end of their minor league careers!! - Most were players with their Rochester farm club.

Well he did have a dreadful draft, but in his book Hockey Is A Battle (which you should buy if you can find it) he basically says "hey I won the Cup and wanted to keep all my veterans." That book also details some real disputes about the protected list with Stafford Smythe. Imlach didn't want to protect Mike Walton.

There have been stories that the Leafs went downhill because they sold off their Rochester & Victoria minor league teams and players. If that is true, then how could those same players be available for the expansion draft?

I may end up not answering this question, so sorry in advance if I miss the mark. Okay. All the players on the Rochester roster belonged to the Toronto Maple Leafs. All of them. So, if they had sold the players and team it would have been after they had been picked over by expansion.

This was not the case with all minor league clubs, and specifically not all of the Victoria Maple Leafs. Toronto owned several players on that roster, including Al Smith who was protected and Fred Hucul who was drafted. From what I can gather, RW Bruce Carmichael, D Sandy Hucul, C Lou Jankowski, RW Mike Labadie, D Claude Labrosse, LW Dick Lamoureux, LW Rollie Wilcox were not Maple Leaf property. I am not certain about Bob Barlow, who ended up playing a season with Minnesota.

There were extremely valuable minor league rosters that summer available for dollars. LA purchased Springfield and got a ready made NHL defense, and Philadelphia also did well by purchasing Quebec. LA almost purchased Seattle of the WHL later that summer, and the remnants of the San Fransisco Seals were transferred to Oakland too.

Hope that helps.

Anybody have any ideas on the Leaf strategy of pulling back guys like Les Duff, Norm Armstrong etc.? Were they forced to by the sale agreements? Did Imlach go mad?

I think he probably didn't know the low minors and ended up losing some fine talent. His two books are must reads for anyone like us though. I'd send them to you but I read them often.

 

[NYIsles1*]

But what really is interesting is that how did Pollock convince the expansion teams to give up those first round draft picks for really nothing at all. All the other teams, except Boston later on, did not attempt to make those moves.

Were those General managers not aware of exactly what they were giving up? Were they uninformed? Did the other 5 original 6 teams not understand the expansion rules? Or was Sam Pollock such a great salesman? I think he probably was smarter and certainly more experienced than the general managers he was taking advantage of. No matter how he made the moves, his success over a long period of time hasn't been matched and probably won't be.

The stories of Pollock working Bill Torrey to try and get Denis Potvin
are legendary among older Isles fans. Torrey always said every time we walked around the block he offered a few more players.

 

[chooch*]

I have to say I'm enjoying reading all your posts, guys

 

[ClassicHockey]

Imlach

Thanks again for the list and the info. (you must be a hockey researcher). I have a version of the list somewhere and I'll have to find it. But I remembered it correctly for those older minor leaguers being protected. I pulled Imlach's 'Hockey is a Battle' and I want to confirm that he said the Rochester & Victoria clubs were sold BEFORE the expansion draft. I'll reply later.

Well he did have a dreadful draft, but in his book Hockey Is A Battle (which you should buy if you can find it) he basically says "hey I won the Cup and wanted to keep all my veterans." That book also details some real disputes about the protected list with Stafford Smythe. Imlach didn't want to protect Mike Walton.





I may end up not answering this question, so sorry in advance if I miss the mark. Okay. All the players on the Rochester roster belonged to the Toronto Maple Leafs. All of them. So, if they had sold the players and team it would have been after they had been picked over by expansion.

This was not the case with all minor league clubs, and specifically not all of the Victoria Maple Leafs. Toronto owned several players on that roster, including Al Smith who was protected and Fred Hucul who was drafted. From what I can gather, RW Bruce Carmichael, D Sandy Hucul, C Lou Jankowski, RW Mike Labadie, D Claude Labrosse, LW Dick Lamoureux, LW Rollie Wilcox were not Maple Leaf property. I am not certain about Bob Barlow, who ended up playing a season with Minnesota.

There were extremely valuable minor league rosters that summer available for dollars. LA purchased Springfield and got a ready made NHL defense, and Philadelphia also did well by purchasing Quebec. LA almost purchased Seattle of the WHL later that summer, and the remnants of the San Fransisco Seals were transferred to Oakland too.

Hope that helps.





I think he probably didn't know the low minors and ended up losing some fine talent. His two books are must reads for anyone like us though. I'd send them to you but I read them often.

 

[Drury_Sakic]

I DO want to use that logic and I agree with you. I think Lacroix is a close second to Holland as far as overrated GMs go. The best thing he ever did was orchestrate the trade of his former client to his team.

He might be overated to a point...

But.. looking at who he brought in at various points via trades..

Big Names
Blake
Roy
Fluery(good move at the time, minus the drugs)
Bourque
Ozolinsh(sp)


Lesser names
Konowalchuk
Boughner
Vaananen
Skrastins
Reinprecht
Marchment
Kasper

Signed as UFA
Kariya
Selanne

Drafted
Tanguay
Drury
Hejduk
Regehr

Granted... He traded away his fair share of talent along the way...but which of those players have come back to make the Avs look bad? Drury has floundered out side of Denver... Deadmarsh looks like he is done.. Miller has been steady.. but is not really been missed....How about that Vrbata guy that looked like he might break through eventually? Nieminen looks to be a 4th liner for life....Regehr might be one of the only guys that long term the Avs will miss.. Point being that almost every talent he has traded away failed... And again.. granted he made a few questionable moves.....and there has always been a strong core to support the team(it is hard for me to imagine any team being a loser with Sakic, Forsberg, Foote, and Roy being around for all those years)...

PL also stayed out of the UFA market... when there were several times he could have gone out and driven up the market price on several guys...and he only gave out big contracts to a few key guys, not every piece of dead meat that walked by(anyone going to try and tell me that in the old NHL system that there were any guys that earned their big bucks better than Sakic, Forsberg, and Roy? )

I honestly cannot really pin a bad contract on PL.... You might try to point to Paul and Temmu being bad contracts... but Paul at 1.2 million was worth every dime....even if you think he was worthless on ice.. he was a gold mine off the ice in Jearsy sales and other promotional value..... Selanne did not earn his 5 million on ice either... but again.. the off ice value in marketing was big.. plus it brought in Kariya...PL has not been afraid to let guys walk if they don't fit the mold and ask for too much(de Vries, Klemm, Kamensky, ext)


PL might be over rated... but by no means should he be excluded from the top GM of all time talks...

 

[tinyzombies]

My vote goes to Frank Selke. He taught Trader Sam all he knew. It was Selke (and Tommy Gorman before him) who set the gold standard.

 

[reckoning]

The other thing Pierre Lacroix deserves credit for was before `03-`04 when he was under a lot of pressure from the Denver media and fans to acquire a big name goalie after Roy retired. Instead he stuck to his guns and said that Aebisher would have first crack at the #1 spot; as it turned out, he was probably their best player after Sakic.

 

[salzy]

He might be overated to a point...
But.. looking at who he brought in at various points via trades..

Yes, he has brought in a number of great players via trade. And he has done so by paying (and in many cases OVERpaying) with the tremendous pool of assets he inherited from Pierre Page:

Big Names
Blake - Deadmarsh, Miller, 1st
Roy - Thibault, Kovalenko, Rucinsky, 1st?
Fluery(good move at the time, minus the drugs) - Yikes! Regehr, Yelle, 1st?
Bourque - Rolston, Palsson
Ozolinsh(sp) - Owen Nolan!


Lesser names
Konowalchuk - Battaglia
Boughner - ??? journeyman
Vaananen - Derek Morris (Drury)
Skrastins - ??? journeyman
Reinprecht - throw in with Blake, thrown in with Drury
Marchment - ??? journeyman
Kasper - Can't remember but IIRC, it was a lot.

Signed as UFA
Kariya - sweetheart contract turned out to be horrible signing
Selanne - turned out to be horrible signing

Drafted
Tanguay - had 4 picks in 1st round (thanks to trading assets Page left him). took Tanguay, Scott Parker, Skoula and Ramzi Abid. One out of four isn't bad I guess!
Drury - Lacroix was hired less than a month before the draft. You REALLY wanna give him credit for this one?
Hejduk - see Drury
Regehr - part of the Fleury deal[/QUOTE]

Granted... He traded away his fair share of talent along the way...but which of those players have come back to make the Avs look bad?

It doesn't matter how they've done since they've left. The point is, he inherited such and incredibly deep talent pool when he took over from Page, there was simply no way the franchise could avoid winning a couple Cups. He was able to bring in every player he wanted because he had the assets to make the deals. No other team and no other GM had such a luxury.

and there has always been a strong core to support the team(it is hard for me to imagine any team being a loser with Sakic, Forsberg, Foote, and Roy being around for all those years)...

Exactly! A core that HE INHERITED (with the exception of Roy, who he traded a number of good young inherited players to acquire).

PL also stayed out of the UFA market... when there were several times he could have gone out and driven up the market price on several guys...and he only gave out big contracts to a few key guys, not every piece of dead meat that walked by(anyone going to try and tell me that in the old NHL system that there were any guys that earned their big bucks better than Sakic, Forsberg, and Roy? )

Giving those huge contracts to those 4 guys (including Blake) also drove up the market prices, so he's really no different than anyone else in that regard. Other people signed UFAs to huge deals, he signed his own pending UFAs to huge deals.

PL might be over rated... but by no means should he be excluded from the top GM of all time talks...

Yes, he IS over rated, and he absolutely has no business being included in the discussion of top GMs of all time.

 

[salzy]

The other thing Pierre Lacroix deserves credit for was before `03-`04 when he was under a lot of pressure from the Denver media and fans to acquire a big name goalie after Roy retired. Instead he stuck to his guns and said that Aebisher would have first crack at the #1 spot; as it turned out, he was probably their best player after Sakic.

The consensus among hockey people was that Aebisher didn't have the ability or the experience to take them anywhere in the playoffs - that a veteran contending team like the Avalanche needed a proven veteran goalie - like a Kolzig or Burke. They were proven right when Colorado flamed out in the 2nd round.

 

[12# Peter Bondra]

The consensus among hockey people was that Aebisher didn't have the ability or the experience to take them anywhere in the playoffs - that a veteran contending team like the Avalanche needed a proven veteran goalie - like a Kolzig or Burke. They were proven right when Colorado flamed out in the 2nd round.

The whole team played badly, its not like Abei gave up soft goals during that series.

 

[reckoning]

The consensus among hockey people was that Aebisher didn't have the ability or the experience to take them anywhere in the playoffs - that a veteran contending team like the Avalanche needed a proven veteran goalie - like a Kolzig or Burke. They were proven right when Colorado flamed out in the 2nd round.

I wouldn`t blame Aebisher for that loss. The only year Sean Burke made it past the first round was his rookie season in 1988. The only year Kolzig made it past the first round was `98. I don`t think either of those guys could be considered proven playoff goalies.

 

[Hasbro]

Yes, he has brought in a number of great players via trade. And he has done so by paying (and in many cases OVERpaying) with the tremendous pool of assets he inherited from Pierre Page:

And to be fair there a buttload of losing.

On the trades

Big Names
Blake - Deadmarsh, Miller, 1st

Full trade was Blake, and Rhino for Deadmarsh, Miller, 1st in 2001 (Dave Steckle), Jared Aulin, and a 1st in 2003 (there was some trading so I'm not sure who came from that one). If Blake didn't resign with the Avs LA would have got the 2nd round compensitory pick inplace of the 2003 1st

The three named players in that deal all developed signifigant injury problems soon after the deal, so we're deffinately better off than having kept them. Steckle has a 5D rating right now and the other was a low first. A couple of leaky tug boats, and three row boats for a battleship.

Roy - Thibault, Kovalenko, Rucinsky, 1st?

No 1st Avs got Keane along with Roy. This was recognized as under payment at the time. How Montreal didn't take Deadmarsh with Thibault is still a mystery to me. Keane was a great checking forward for us

Fluery(good move at the time, minus the drugs) - Yikes! Regehr, Yelle, 1st?

Not Yelle or a 1st. Theoren Fleury and Chris Dingman for Rene Corbet, Wade Belak, Robyn Regehr and Colorado's 2nd round compensatory choice (Jarret Stoll) in 2002.

Corbet was a good 3rd liner but by that point injury prone last I heard he was in the DEL, Belak became a 2nd rate goon in TO, Calgary had their pick of one prospect in the Avs system it boiled down to Regehr vs Skoula, they chose wisely. Like Blake it was the 1st or the compensitory. Fluery turned out to be a lemon, I've always been of two minds on him; on one hand thank good we walked away from that lemon, on the other I think things may have turned out better if he wasn't in the glare of New York (about the only worse place would have been Toronto.)

Dingman turned out to be a valueable throw-in, played absolutely out of his head in the 2001 Cup run, I wish we had kept him instead of Parker.

Bourque - Rolston, Palsson

Ray Bourque and Dave Andreychuk for Brian Rolston, Martin Grenier, Sami Pahlsson and a 1st round selection (previously acquired, Boston selected Martin Samuelsson) in 2000.

Lacroix somehow fooled Sinden into thinking Pahlson was going to be something special, he unloaded him for Patrick Traverse at the next deadline. Grenier is an AHLer. Samuelson has a 7B rating. Rolston turned around in Boston. So Bourque for Rolston+Samuelson take it in a heart beat.

Ozolinsh(sp) - Owen Nolan!

Avs needed a puck rushing Defenseman, Ozolinsh was inegral in the 96 cup. Scored the Goal that was the turning point of those play offs. Nolan had a couple of slump years soon after the trade.

Lesser names

Konowalchuk - Battaglia

Washington Capitals traded Steve Konowalchuk and a 3rd round selection in 2004 to the Colorado Avalanche for Bates Battaglia and Jonas Johansson.

Kono for Batters I'll take in a minute. Jury is still out on Johanson, but he's a late 1st in a crappy draft and injury prone. Lacroix said he wasn't going to sign him so the 3rd equals the compensitory pick, give that a wash.

Bates came for Vrbata, I still take Konowalchuk even up for Verb

Boughner - ??? journeyman

For a 3rd and Cris Bahen who was in Germany when traded

Vaananen - Derek Morris (Drury)

The deals break down as
Calgary Flames traded Derek Morris, Jeff Shantz and Dean McAmmond to the Colorado Avalanche for Chris Drury and Stephane Yelle.A cadaver for Shantz was overpayment, McAmmond deserved a better shot (Granato ) Yelle needed a change, I'm sorry I know he was great in the cup run last year, but he had stagnated here. Had Morris not dropped off a cliff this year, I could have lived begrudginly with this, but Drury was everyone's favorite. Worst trade in team history.

Phoenix Coyotes traded Chris Gratton, Ossi Vaananen and a 2nd round selection in 2005 to the Colorado Avalanche for Derek Morris and Keith Ballard.

Still waiting on the 2nd (c'mon Peter Stastny!) I like Vaananen, but I suspect we'll end up a player behind in all this mess.

Gratton... well we got him cheap and didn't send four 1sts after citicising another team for being vultures.

Skrastins - ??? journeyman

Future considerations I believe a 3rd
Nikolishin came in a simular deal

Reinprecht - throw in with Blake, thrown in with Drury

Rhino was traded strait up for Ballard. Buffalo then made the deal with Calgary for Drury

Marchment - ??? journeyman

3rd and a 5th, I believe we got a 3rd as compensitory for his free agent signing, good riddance. The 5th eventualy got traded back to the Avs who became Brad Richardson (he might turn out well)

Kasper - Can't remember but IIRC, it was a lot.

Ville Nieminen and Rick Berry, yeah real Brinks Job by Pittsburgh Both players left for nothing from the Quinns (Yeah I know). Would have liked to hold onto Kaspar, but not for that contract.

Signed as UFA

Kariya - sweetheart contract turned out to be horrible signing
Selanne - turned out to be horrible signing

That 29 other GM would have made and we're free of those contracts now, unlike other teams still paying off bad debt, see Rag$

Drafted

Tanguay - had 4 picks in 1st round (thanks to trading assets Page left him). took Tanguay, Scott Parker, Skoula and Ramzi Abid. One out of four isn't bad I guess!

Abid was the 2nd rounder Tanguay, Skoula, Regehr, Parker were the 1sts. Aquiring the 1sts;

San Jose Sharks traded Shean Donovan and 1st round selection (Alex Tanguay) to the Colorado Avalanche for Mike Ricci and 2nd round selection (later traded to the Buffalo Sabres - Jaroslav Kristek) in 1998.In large part a salary move, but not a bad return. Donovan never turned out until last year.

Colorado Avalanche traded Landon Wilson and Anders Myrvold to the Boston Bruins for 1st round selection (Robyn Regehr) in 1998.Boston should stop dealing with Lacroix

Washington Capitals traded Keith Jones, a 1st round selection (Scott Parker) in 1998 and a 4th round selection (later traded back to Washington - Krys Barch) in 1998 to the Colorado Avalanche for Curtis Leschyshyn and Chris Simon.Simon was in the midst of a hold out, didn't like fighting anymore Leschy like him but nothing special. Jones later got swapped for Shjon Podien and soon after fell off a cliff, that turned out to be a steal. Podien got swapped in a lateral move for Keane and he's done unfortunately.

Colorado Avalanche traded Stephane Fiset and 1st round selection (Mathieu Biron) in 1998 to the Los Angeles Kings for Eric Lacroix and 1st round selection (Martin Skoula) in 1998.Fiset was a spare part who got replaced by Craig Billington on th waiver wire. Whole lot of nothing here. Works out to Kurt Sauer and Darby Hendrickson.

Drury - Lacroix was hired less than a month before the draft. You REALLY wanna give him credit for this one?
Hejduk - see Drury

Yep and yep. Dave Draper found us alot of talent, them included he stayed on until 98. shame to lose him.

Regehr - part of the Fleury deal

Which he picked.

It doesn't matter how they've done since they've left. The point is, he inherited such and incredibly deep talent pool when he took over from Page, there was simply no way the franchise could avoid winning a couple Cups. He was able to bring in every player he wanted because he had the assets to make the deals. No other team and no other GM had such a luxury.

I don't see Page anywhere now. Credit has to go to Gauthier and Draper for their scouting acumen, yeah Page insured they'd pick forth in 91-92 (Todd Warriner), but his predecesors got him the number 1's overall and Hockey Hershel Walker. Had a good draft in 93, I think you're overrating Page a tad.