Bergeron or Ovechkin

[BIGTRAIN*]

Before last years draft:

Bergeron is a good player but because of the league he plays in is not as polished or as well rounded as Perezhogin is >> The more talented the people you play against makes your development go at a faster rate>> Perezhogin will have an immediate impact while Bergeron will not and probably have to play in the minors>>

Note: Bergeron and Perezhogin are not exceptions that prove the rule. All the time you can find junior players who step in faster than Euro players who already have pro experience.

***********

I'm not saying Crosby is better than Ovechkin (or vice versa), but you can't assume everything based on what league they play in.

More players form the russian elite league step right in and play after being drafted tha junior league draftee's do>> The play in that league requires you to mature faster because of the compatition you play against>> Ovechkin has been playing at a higher level since he was sixteen than crosby has >> The talent level in the russian elite league is much better and because of that you advance at a faster clip or you do not stay long >> If one plays against equal to or greater talent you skills become more refined and if you do not understand that simple fact then you know nothing about sports period>> As I said this is not a nock on Crosby just the facts and until he plays against the big boys his development is Pejorative Slured>> Why you ask because he does not improve his game until the compatition make it happen that is called human nature >> When trying to get better in sports you allway play against compatition that is a lot better than you since it make you work to improve >>> Do you people understand or do I draw you a picture ??

 

[Genghis Keon]

More players form the russian elite league step right in and play after being drafted tha junior league draftee's do>> The play in that league requires you to mature faster because of the compatition you play against>> Ovechkin has been playing at a higher level since he was sixteen than crosby has >> The talent level in the russian elite league is much better and because of that you advance at a faster clip or you do not stay long >> If one plays against equal to or greater talent you skills become more refined and if you do not understand that simple fact then you know nothing about sports period>> As I said this is not a nock on Crosby just the facts and until he plays against the big boys his development is Pejorative Slured>> Why you ask because he does not improve his game until the compatition make it happen that is called human nature >> When trying to get better in sports you allway play against compatition that is a lot better than you since it make you work to improve >>> Do you people understand or do I draw you a picture ??

That is a reasonable assumption and you give reasons that would logically support your assumption. However, is your assumption factually correct? Go to hockeydb, go through the drafts (let's say since '98 to get a decent sample size without going back too far where fewer Euros made the jump) and compare how many players from junior made the NHL within the first 2 years following their draft to how many Europeans made the jump within the same time frame. I haven't gone over every single player, but I can be reasonably assured in telling you that more juniors made the jump faster than Europeans. If nothing else, this tells us that your assumption isn't as strong as it first appears to be.

 

[Crosbyfan]

Which also would be an unfair comparison. This would be his SECOND year in the league, while it is AO's first. That is a HUGE hurdle to overcome, and Bergeron did it quite well. Lets give AO the same opportunity and compare HIS rookie points total to that of Bergeron (and even then it wont be fair considering the teams the two played on).

How would that be "fair". Bergeron would be 10 months younger as a rookie and stepping out of "junior", while Ovechkin would have just finished 2 and a half seasons against "men" in the RSL. Any "informed hockey fan" would not make your argument.

 

[stardog]

How would that be "fair". Bergeron would be 10 months younger as a rookie and stepping out of "junior", while Ovechkin would have just finished 2 and a half seasons against "men" in the RSL. Any "informed hockey fan" would not make your argument.

So answer my original question then. How would it be "FAIR" to compare Ovechkins production in his rookie season to that of bergeron in his second???
And now I find it interesting that you are using the RSL in favorable terms to support your argument, where as before it was looked upon as a mockery when compared to the NHL.
You can't have it both ways dude.
Bergeron had the experience of playing a full year in the best league in the world. He did very well by all accounts. That is invaluable. To take that experience and compare his production to a player who has yet to experience the same thing is unfair by all accounts as well. Are you disagreeing with that?

You know what though? Even though it IS an unfair comparison, I still would be willing to bet you that AO outscores Bergeron next year, on a much worse team.

If you are willing to take that bet then lets make it interesting. PM me if you have any ideas for a good wager and are willing to take that bet.

 

[HockeyGoddess]

Bergeron scored 39 points playing nearly a full season with a great team's top lines. I'll admit to being decidedly impressed with his play, and project him to be a quality top six player for Boston forever-ever, but ask yourself how many rookies would have outscored Patrice given the same opportunity.

Having never seen Ovechkin play, I have no idea what his potential to make an impact is other than what I've read here and elsewhere.

Regarding Bergeron having played on Boston's top lines, that's untrue. He spent a little more than half of the season (until January or thereabouts) on the third line (checking line) as a winger. He spent a few games on the wing on the first line, then was pressed into service as the 2nd line center. He missed about a month with a separated shoulder shortly after taking over as the 2nd-line center. When Nylander came on board in March, they moved Patrice over to the wing. He did see time on the power-play throughout the season, and a small amount of time on the penalty-kill as well.

 

[BIGTRAIN*]

That is a reasonable assumption and you give reasons that would logically support your assumption. However, is your assumption factually correct? Go to hockeydb, go through the drafts (let's say since '98 to get a decent sample size without going back too far where fewer Euros made the jump) and compare how many players from junior made the NHL within the first 2 years following their draft to how many Europeans made the jump within the same time frame. I haven't gone over every single player, but I can be reasonably assured in telling you that more juniors made the jump faster than Europeans. If nothing else, this tells us that your assumption isn't as strong as it first appears to be.

I was talking mainly about players from the russian elite league >> But if you look at the players from europe they make up the najority of the GREAT PLAYERS because there skill level is higher >> There are very good north american players in this league but due to the style they are tought they are less creative than their counter parts >> And it is this creativity that is the difference ( better puck handlers , better passers, faster and better skaters>> The ice surface they play on requires that these skills be developed or they do not advance >> Look at it there game is miore suited to skill develment than it is in north america>> Think why the russians have gone form not playing the game to one of the best countries in the game >>

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

If you are willing to take that bet then lets make it interesting. PM me if you have any ideas for a good wager and are willing to take that bet.

Simple: you compare the totals of the two players at the end of next season. You mmultiply the difference by 4. And the result is the number of days the loser of the bet must sport an avatar displaying something like: Owned By Stardog or Owned by Crosbyfan. Or something like that.

So let's say Ovechkin ends up with 49 points and Bergeron with 43. In this case, Crosbyfan would have to sport an avatar called "Owned by Stardog".

Alternatively, if you two don't live too far apart, you can have a bet similar to the one I have running (for a few years) with Dr_Chimera. The loser pays dinner at a friendly meeting

 

[Sammy*]

Simple: you compare the totals of the two players at the end of next season. You mmultiply the difference by 4. And the result is the number of days the loser of the bet must sport an avatar displaying something like: Owned By Stardog or Owned by Crosbyfan. Or something like that.

So let's say Ovechkin ends up with 49 points and Bergeron with 43. In this case, Crosbyfan would have to sport an avatar called "Owned by Stardog".

Alternatively, if you two don't live too far apart, you can have a bet similar to the one I have running (for a few years) with Dr_Chimera. The loser pays dinner at a friendly meeting

What was that bet? Wasnt it Spezza (who you took) & Ruutu (who Chimera took). But then how is the winner determined?

 

[Team_Spirit]

Patrice Bergeron = Joe Juneau

They'll play him with talented players few years then trade him and he'll struggles with poor linesmates .

 

[KariyaIsGod*]

Ovechkin is a good player but because of the league he plays in is not as polished or as well rounded as Bergeron is >> The more talented the people you play against makes you development go at a faster rate>> Bergeron has had an immediate impact while Ovechkin will not and probly have to play in the minors>>

When you play men it is totally different type of game than when you play against boys of the same age >> Just because Ovechkin does well against lesser telant, does not say what he does against the bigger stronger faster men of the NHL>>

Read what I quoted because I have tinkered with your post a bit to fit the Ovechkin vs Bergeron argument...

OK< now that you've read that, do you agree that Bergeron is better than Ovechkin because the exact same arguments you use to put Ovechkin over Crosby apply here?

Or do you concede that Ovechkin is not better than Crosby because at this time they are uncomparable?

Or do you simply admit that your logic is entirely flawed?

 

[BIGTRAIN*]

Read what I quoted because I have tinkered with your post a bit to fit the Ovechkin vs Bergeron argument...

OK< now that you've read that, do you agree that Bergeron is better than Ovechkin because the exact same arguments you use to put Ovechkin over Crosby apply here?

Or do you concede that Ovechkin is not better than Crosby because at this time they are uncomparable?

Or do you simply admit that your logic is entirely flawed?

First off the discussion I was having was that Ovechkin is better because he plays in a superior league and is forced to develop is skills sooner >> Crosby will always be behind him in that frame of reference >> Playing against the best players brings out all the talent a player has but playing against equal or lessor talent Pejorative Slur one development >> Also the russian elite league is the second best league in hockey and he has played in it since he was sixteen >> Kovelchuck ( maybe not spelled right ) never was invited to play there because of talent constraints >>

Kovelchuck is far and away a better player than Bergeron and that being the fact right now Ovechkin is equal to Bergeron and in a short period of time will be better than both >> Ovechkin is that rare player that comes along that has the ability to do all the things that make players special and part of you problem is I guess is washington has him and your team does not >>

To answer all of your questions at once I have forgotten more about hockey than you will ever hope to know in 10 lifetimes>> Go back to school learn something before you speak>> Children are to be seen not heard >> :lol

 

[KariyaIsGod*]

First off the discussion I was having was that Ovechkin is better because he plays in a superior league and is forced to develop is skills sooner >> Crosby will always be behind him in that frame of reference >> Playing against the best players brings out all the talent a player has but playing against equal or lessor talent Pejorative Slur one development >> Also the russian elite league is the second best league in hockey and he has played in it since he was sixteen >> Kovelchuck ( maybe not spelled right ) never was invited to play there because of talent constraints >>

Kovelchuck is far and away a better player than Bergeron and that being the fact right now Ovechkin is equal to Bergeron and in a short period of time will be better than both >> Ovechkin is that rare player that comes along that has the ability to do all the things that make players special and part of you problem is I guess is washington has him and your team does not >>

To answer all of your questions at once I have forgotten more about hockey than you will ever hope to know in 10 lifetimes>> Go back to school learn something before you speak>> Children are to be seen not heard >>

Wow, your post was exactly 3 paragraphs of regurgitation...

I'm fully aware of what you said. I in fact took what you said and formed a logical argument and simply asked you how Ovechkin could be better than Bergeron considering the criteria you used to label him as better than Crosby....

Even though you are CLEARLY the Bob McKenzie of the railroad industry and you also possess a rare and unique ability to make unfounded, ridiculous and downright silly assumptions, you obviously missed logic class....

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

What was that bet? Wasnt it Spezza (who you took) & Ruutu (who Chimera took). But then how is the winner determined?

You are correct, it was indeed those two players.

To be honest, I don't even remember the exact date our bet ends (I think it's in 2007 but what month???). On the threads, there were suggestions as to how to determine.

Here's what will most probably happen. The easiest way is if a big gap is displayed between both players, or at the very least, if we can both agree on the winner of the bet. Then it's really simple. However, if it's not that close, I believe it was said we would ask for the help of 3rd party folks on HF. There were even volunteers but unfortunately, the forums went down and of course all of this is gone.

Man, I wish all the stuff from day one was still there.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Patrice Bergeron = Joe Juneau

They'll play him with talented players few years then trade him and he'll struggles with poor linesmates .

I completely disagree. They are nothing alike nor do they share much as far as mentality is concerned. The fact is Patrice has already at 18 yrs old the intestinal fortitude and desire Joe Juneau is still looking for.

 

[neelynugs]

Patrice Bergeron = Joe Juneau

They'll play him with talented players few years then trade him and he'll struggles with poor linesmates .

that's an awful comparison. watch a little bit more of bergeron with a little less anti-bruins bias, and you'll see it for yourself.

 

[Traitor8]

Hey guys..didn't Ryder have a 63 pts season?

Ryder or Ovechkin ???

Ribeiro had a 65...

Ribeiro or Ovechkin??

PLEASE..this is ridiculous!

Bergeron is not even close.

 

[mmmBeer]

Hey guys..didn't Ryder have a 63 pts season?

Ryder or Ovechkin ???

Ribeiro had a 65...

Ribeiro or Ovechkin??

PLEASE..this is ridiculous!

Bergeron is not even close.

Bergeron is 2 months older than Ovechkin.

Ribeiro and Ryder are app. 5 years older than both. I don't see how adding their names to the discussion puts things into perspective.

Martin St. Louis had 94 points.

 

[craig1]

I can't beleive this thread even is getting discussed! Maybe we should put a poll up on it! HA!

 

[Crosbyfan]

I can't beleive this thread even is getting discussed! Maybe we should put a poll up on it! HA!

POINT SPREADS !

I'll go with Bergeron by 7 points.

Maybe 61 to 54 under the current rules/scoring in the NHL assuming Bergeron plays pretty much a full season and Ovechkin slightly less, maybe 5 less games.

Malkin at 42 points in about 70 games. Zherdev at 65 if he plays a full season. Lets limit this to players that are teenagers as we speak and not pretend 25 year old rookies/sophomores are in comparable positions. This is all conjecture of course as a lot of doubt exists at this point of they're development.

EDIT: For all you guys who say there is no comparison here is your chance to quantify it!

 

[Crosbyfan]

Just to reiterate my main point is that Bergeron is the fastest improving player in his age group. I have yet to claim he is better than Ovechkin. A year ago Ovechkin was expected to go first overall "hands down" and nothing has changed that. A year before Bergeron was drafted he wasn't expected to be "IN" the draft. I think he had maybe 1 assist in 4 games Major Junior while at that time Ovechkin had played 20 games in the RSL. Bergeron then played such a "solid" season in the Q that he was picked by the Bruins in the second round. He then went to the Bruins camp for "training" and could not be cut from the roster and had this years best "18 year old rookie" season in the NHL. He now is at the World Championships playing for Canada (as is Ovechkin who may play a bigger role for Russia). Of course Bergeron will not be playing in the WORLD CUP later this year, but IF he gets some icetime and IF he plays well he may get invited to Canada's World Cup camp though probably just for the experience and "training"...

 

[CSKA]

this thread is just :bonk:

 

[Crosbyfan]

WHICH STOCK WOULD YOU BUY

Lets call Ovechkin the "Gold Standard" and call his present ability 100%, a year ago 80 % and the year before 50%.

IF (I think they're "comparable") you assume Bergeron's present ability to be still below Ovechkins lets call Bergeron's present ability 90%, the year before 40% and the year before that 10% (being generous).

Would you buy a stock going from 50 to 80 to 100 in two years (very nice return) or one going from 10 to 40 to 90?

 

[Zine]

This thread = :lol

Ovechkin>>>>>>>>Bergeron.

Zherdev is even better than Bergeron, and anyone who's seen them play knows Ovechkin is way better than Zherdev.

BTW, 1+1 for Ovechkin today in the WC, 4 sog, and #1 star of the game.

 

[Crosbyfan]

Ovechkin>>>>>>>>Bergeron.

.

So maybe 45 points for Bergeron next year and 100+ and the Art Ross for Ovechkin????? How much is 8 >'s in a row?

 

[craig1]

WHICH STOCK WOULD YOU BUY

Lets call Ovechkin the "Gold Standard" and call his present ability 100%, a year ago 80 % and the year before 50%.

IF ( I think they're "comparable") you assume Bergeron's present ability to be still below Ovechkins lets call him 90%, the year before 40% and the year before that 10% (being generous).

Would you buy a stock going from 50 to 80 to 100 in two years (very nice return) or one going from 10 to 40 to 90?

That depends.....are you using a 2-stage dividend model and calculating intrinsic value, or are you trying to lose your money day trading and using technical analysis.......I'm a fundamental analysis guy myself, with technical (usually an 18/9 lagging indicator) used to back up some of my findings if I forsee a suden shift in valuation.