Before Vlad's injury, who was considered better - Konstantinov or Lidstrom?

[TheMule93]

There is a debate on the red wings board about who was considered better at the time. I was just wondering what you guys thought. I didnt watch either of them back then and would like some outsider input on the subject matter.

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[quoipourquoi]

Vladimir Konstantinov. The belief was that Nicklas Lidstrom had a higher upside because he was better offensively, but it was Vladimir Konstantinov in 1995-96 and 1996-97.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

95-96 Norris Voting:
4. Konstantinov
6. Lidstrom

96-97 Norris Voting:
2. Konstantinov
6. Lidstrom

Clearly from the writers standpoint, they viewed Konstantinov of the better of the two - although both clearly highly thought of.

Everyone knew Lidstrom had a much better offensive game, but Konstantinov was considered better defensively and was obviously well known for his gritty, physical style - which right or wrong gave him bonus points.

I think during the 97 playoffs, Lidstrom really began opening eyes with his impact on the defensive side of the puck. Unfortunately we never got to see what would have happened in the future between the two, but the next 3 seasons Lidstrom finished as the runner up for the Norris before his several wins.

 

[brachyrynchos]

Incredible draft year for the Wings, some of the guys they drafted in '89: Sillinger, Boughner, Lidstrom, Fedorov, Drake, and Konstantinov.
That Russian Five was something special, and definitely sways my opinion in Vlad's favor. He brought much needed toughness to the Wings blueline. Wings scout Neil Smith saw Konstantinov at the World Juniors in '87, and when a brawl broke out in a game vs Canada, Smith noted that Konstantinov was the only one of the Russian who fought back. I'd rather skate against Lidstrom than Vlad the Impaler.

 

[Staniowski]

Yes, most thought Konstantinov was somewhat better in the couple years before the accident, as is reflected in Norris and all-star voting. He certainly looked good on the Russian Five and his physical style was appealing to the eye and effective. He was 3 years older than Lidstrom, 30 years old in '97.

But it wasn't a universal opinion. Some thought that Lidstrom was underrated, and was the better player of the two.

 

[JackSlater]

Most people seemed to think that Konstantinov was better. Very noticeable defensive player who excelled in the style at the time. Lidstrom was better in Konstantinov's last two seasons though.

 

[sr edler]

Lidstrom was better in Konstantinov's last two seasons though.

Lidström had a way more noticeable rookie season. 60 points (against 34) and a better plus|minus rating. Hadn’t Bure gone on a late season tear with 22 goals in 23 games Lidström would have won the Calder. It took a few seasons before Konstantinov became a dominant force with the R5.

 

[Thenameless]

Don't know if I'm remembering it correctly, but even Lidstrom at the time thought Konstantinov was ahead of him as a defenseman.

 

[sr edler]

Don't know if I'm remembering it correctly, but even Lidstrom at the time thought Konstantinov was ahead of him as a defenseman.

Yeah, but Lidström is a super humble soft spoken Swedish guy so of course he would say something like that. It doesn't mean he couldn't have meant it, but you have to take that into consideration.

 

[Thenameless]

Yeah, but Lidström is a super humble soft spoken Swedish guy so of course he would say something like that. It doesn't mean he couldn't have meant it, but you have to take that into consideration.

It was a pretty long interview. While he did sound genuine, you're right in saying that he is the reserved and humble type. There's no need to boast when you've accomplished as much as he has.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Team GA (Total/PK)
51/17 - Konstantinov, 1996
59/20 - Konstantinov, 1997
87/29 - Lidstrom, 1996
75/19 - Lidstrom, 1997

I don't know that anyone would say Konstantinov was playing sheltered minutes, and they stopped being competitive for Jennings Trophies after he left.

 

[brachyrynchos]

Lidstrom on Konstantinov w/ Russian Five: "He could step up and hit someone in the neutral zone or go end to end with the puck. When you're playing against that line, you're not thinking about getting hit or someone is going to run you over, but when you have Konstantinov there, he could do that, that gave freedom for the other guys".
Draft eligibility s what made Detroit select Lidstrom in the 3rd rd, he wasn't scouted and Neil Smith knew that if they didn't draft him that year that he would certainly be drafted by someone else in the 1st rd the following draft. Smith supposedly played dumb with agent Don Meehan, saying he never heard of him, he didn't want Lidstrom's name out there.
Smith wanted to draft another Russian in the 5th rd, but questions about eligibility and Devellano didn't want anymore Russians til the later rounds. The next round Vancouver selected Pavel Bure.

 

[Jim MacDonald]

Boy we were spoiled! Konstantinov was probably a couple notches better than Lidstrom at that point in time overall, but we maybe had yet to see Lidstrom peak. Vlad a +60 in 95-96!! Opposing coaches saying Vlad could take a penalty every shift! I think Brian Burke may have said something to the effect of Vladdie's style of play was "sharper than a woodpecker's beek."

 

[Eye of Ra]

Incredible draft year for the Wings, some of the guys they drafted in '89: Sillinger, Boughner, Lidstrom, Fedorov, Drake, and Konstantinov.
That Russian Five was something special, and definitely sways my opinion in Vlad's favor. He brought much needed toughness to the Wings blueline. Wings scout Neil Smith saw Konstantinov at the World Juniors in '87, and when a brawl broke out in a game vs Canada, Smith noted that Konstantinov was the only one of the Russian who fought back. I'd rather skate against Lidstrom than Vlad the Impaler.

lol why are youy lying, that fight is on youtube, many soviets fought the canadians, the fight was even.

 

[brachyrynchos]

lol why are youy lying, that fight is on youtube, many soviets fought the canadians, the fight was even.

True, got me. But watching the video, alot of standing around and turtling by the soviet players, only a few actually throwing punches, the rest being outmuscled and thrown to the ice. Fighting clearly wasn't a part of their game.

 

[danincanada]

There is a debate on the red wings board about who was considered better at the time. I was just wondering what you guys thought. I didnt watch either of them back then and would like some outsider input on the subject matter.

Konstantinov was certainly considered better at that time as he was getting more Norris votes and generally more attention. The more interesting debate with hindsight is who actually was better.

I loved Konstantinov and he was great defensively and good at transition but his gaudy +/- numbers also had a lot to do with the Russian 5. That and his physical play got him a lot of accolades. He lead the pack in '96 but the other 4 top +/- players on that team were the other Russians. Very similar in '97 when the Russian 5 were in the top 7 for team +/-. He was obviously a huge part of the Russian 5 but playing in the unit certainly helped his individual stats and everyone loves open ice hits.

Lidstrom wasn't quite at this peak yet but he was already very good defensively and outproduced Konstantinov quite substantially, which makes me question if Konstantinov's defensive game made up for the lack of offense. I'm not sold that it did.

 

[danincanada]

Team GA (Total/PK)
51/17 - Konstantinov, 1996
59/20 - Konstantinov, 1997
87/29 - Lidstrom, 1996
75/19 - Lidstrom, 1997

I don't know that anyone would say Konstantinov was playing sheltered minutes, and they stopped being competitive for Jennings Trophies after he left.

He didn't play sheltered minutes but he did get to play a lot of ES time with the Russian 5. Konstantinov and Lidstrom would often be paired together in key defensive situations and on the PK as they were Bowman's two top defenders so they share some of those GA.

Being lethal on the PP and more productive offensively has to count for something here. Overall:

TGF/TGA
113/51 - Konstantinov, 1996
92/59 - Konstantinov, 1997

150/73, Lidstrom 1996
117/87, Lidstrom, 1997

Overall Lidstrom was +107 in those two seasons while Konstantinov was +95. Pretty close so take your pick as to who was more valuable overall. Lidstrom seemed to out perform him in the playoffs overall.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i think the three year age gap made the difference here. iirc, people still projected lidstrom to be more important longterm.

i think also konstantinov, who by the way was my favourite of those red wings, looked a little better because his partner was an older HHOFer who had aged a little more and he was better than him. fetisov, of course. whereas up to the shanahan trade, lidstrom was partnered with coffey, who was still in norris form so he both deferred a bit and unfairly there was the perception that lidstrom was being carried a bit.

i would also say, though, that in 1996, it was pretty close. the norris voting--

Place	Player	Age	Tm	Votes	Vote%	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	PTS	+/-
4	Vladimir Konstantinov	28	DET	131	24.26	2	6	7	10	4	34	60
5	Paul Coffey	34	DET	83	15.37	0	4	2	12	9	74	19
6	Nicklas Lidstrom	25	DET	54	10.00	0	1	3	7	11	67	29

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[weaponomega]

Hard to believe Konstantinov was only 5'11 with his style of play.

 

[brachyrynchos]

i think the three year age gap made the difference here. iirc, people still projected lidstrom to be more important longterm.

i think also konstantinov, who by the way was my favourite of those red wings, looked a little better because his partner was an older HHOFer who had aged a little more and he was better than him. fetisov, of course. whereas up to the shanahan trade, lidstrom was partnered with coffey, who was still in norris form so he both deferred a bit and unfairly there was the perception that lidstrom was being carried a bit.

i would also say, though, that in 1996, it was pretty close. the norris voting--

Place	Player	Age	Tm	Votes	Vote%	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	PTS	+/-
4	Vladimir Konstantinov	28	DET	131	24.26	2	6	7	10	4	34	60
5	Paul Coffey	34	DET	83	15.37	0	4	2	12	9	74	19
6	Nicklas Lidstrom	25	DET	54	10.00	0	1	3	7	11	67	29

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Lidstrom gave alot of credit his rookie season to his defensive partner and mentor, the late Brad McCrimmon, who Lidstrom said covered for his mistakes and allowed his game to grow. And the more I've read up on this 'debate', one thing I found interesting is that in the '97 Finals vs the Flyers, Bowman chose not the Konstantinov-Fetisov pairing, but the Lidstrom-Murphy pairing against the Legion of Doom, so there was definitely confidence at how Lidstrom was at that point.

 

[brachyrynchos]

Hard to believe Konstantinov was only 5'11 with his style of play.

Same height and physicality as Kasparaitis, and another tank, Andrei kovalenko.

 

[quoipourquoi]

He didn't play sheltered minutes but he did get to play a lot of ES time with the Russian 5.

Certainly helped his offensive numbers; Konstantinov outscored Lidstrom at even-strength over 1996 and 1997 thanks to the Russian Five's chemistry.