Barzal rookie season vs. Matthews rookie season

[Slapshot Sultan]

Well, this is about their rookie years so it doesn't really matter what Matthews has done this season (too bad for the injury).

But the fact still is, that Matthews was 1 year and 3,5 months younger in their rookie seasons, and that is a clear difference and makes it that more impressive..

And that said, Barzal has still around 10 games left, and can make it to even 85+points, so lets see when he's finished the season..

 

[LeafsNation75]

You don't seem to get it. I have no problem if you prefer Matthews 40 goals over Barzal's PPG status into his 73rd game for a rookie 20 year old center. It is extremely rare what he is doing right now. But I am telling you, historically for Calder voting when it is between 2 players, the award overwhelmingly goes to the highest scorer. Right now Barzal is just extending that lead.

Thankfully Matthews already has his Calder and I'm sure Barzal will enjoy his.

However you still don't get that what Matthews did when he scored 40 goals as a rookie was centre was also significant, because others have said it was.

You also never answered my hypothetical if Laine had 75 points last season would that got him the Calder over Matthews despite his 40 goals?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Thankfully Matthews already has his Calder and I'm sure Barzal will enjoy his.

However you still don't get that what Matthews did when he scored 40 goals as a rookie was centre was also significant, because others have said it was.

You also never answered my hypothetical if Laine had 75 points last season would that got him the Calder over Matthews despite his 40 goals?

It was answered, you just have a selective reading problem.

 

[Lemontree]

He would not be in the Hall of Fame had it not been for his playmaking. This is the better point for people that dismiss assists. Same applies to Adam Oates. Are they not Hall of fame worthy players?

Francis is 5th all time in NHL point scoring, so again where do you place him in your Top 5 forwards of all time? He has to be at least number 5 because if not then you valued someone who scored more over someone who put up more points (largely assists). You have been spouting off for awhile now that goals are not more important and only points matter.

Gretzky is the greatest (by record books) offensive player to ever play in the NHL. He has almost 2.2 assists for every goal he has scored, fascinating that it appears easier to be credited with an assist than with a goal.

Goals = 894
Assists = 1,963
Points = 2,857

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Francis is 5th all time in NHL point scoring, so again where do you place him in your Top 5 forwards of all time? He has to be at least number 5 because if not then you valued someone who scored more over someone who put up more points (largely assists). You have been spouting off for awhile now that goals are not more important and only points matter.

Gretzky is the greatest (by record books) offensive player to ever play in the NHL. He has almost 2.2 assists for every goal he has scored, fascinating that it appears easier to be credited with an assist than with a goal.

Goals = 894
Assists = 1,963
Points = 2,857

Oates and Francis? Would they be in the Hall of Fame if playmaking was dismissed if I am reading your line of thinking correctly?

Like I said, Assists were 1-2 the reasons why Gretzky is considered one of the game's greats.

 

[Lemontree]

Oates and Francis? Would they be in the Hall of Fame if playmaking was dismissed if I am reading your line of thinking correctly?

Like I said, Assists were 1-2 the reasons why Gretzky is considered one of the game's greats.

I see you still didn't answer the question posed to you. I am not dismissing assists but I do not value them as high as goal scoring. Do you think Wayne Gretzky would be considered the GOAT if he was a perennial 20 goal scorer?

Oates and Francis are 2 of the best playmakers in history but they are not considered anywhere near 2 of the greatest forward to ever play the game, why is that?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I see you still don't answer the question posed to you. I am not dismissing assists but I do not value them as high as goal scoring. Do you think Wayne Gretzky would be considered the GOAT if he was a perennial 20 goal scorer?

Oates and Francis are 2 of the best playmakers in history but they are not considered anywhere near 2 of the greatest forward to ever play the game, why is that?

Did I say they were the greatest fwds to ever play the game? You did. I simply pointed out to you and others that players that are known for playmaking should not be dismissed as being inferior to goal scorers. Oates, Francis, and Gretzky are great examples of this.

 

[Lemontree]

Did I say they were the greatest fwds to ever play the game? You did. I simply pointed out to you and others that players that are known for playmaking should not be dismissed as being inferior to goal scorers. Oates, Francis, and Gretzky are great examples of this.

I didn't say they were the greatest forwards, I asked you why they are not considered since they meet your criteria.

How the hell is Gretzky your example of being inferior to goal scorers.. He's the highest goal scorer in NHL history.

Oates and Francis are absolutely players throughout the hockey community (old and newer) who are valued less then goal scorers. If they were valued the same then Francis would be the 5th best forward of all time (2nd in assists) and Oates would be considered the 18th best forward of all time (7th in assists) since that is where they rank in total points scored. Since neither of them are considered in the top 20 for all time forwards hockey people must value some other thing that offensive players tend to do.......something that players have done more of then Francis and Oates.........goals scored perhaps?

 

[wingnutks]

I didn't say they were the greatest forwards, I asked you why they are not considered since they meet your criteria.

How the hell is Gretzky your example of being inferior to goal scorers.. He's the highest goal scorer in NHL history.

Oates and Francis are absolutely players throughout the hockey community (old and newer) who are valued less then goal scorers. If they were valued the same then Francis would be the 5th best forward of all time (2nd in assists) and Oates would be considered the 18th best forward of all time (7th in assists) since that is where they rank in total points scored. Since neither of them are considered in the top 20 for all time forwards hockey people must value some other thing that offensive players tend to do.......something that players have done more of then Francis and Oates.........goals scored perhaps?

Are Mike Gartner and Brett Hull the 7th and 4th best players of all time?

 

[Lemontree]

Are Mike Gartner and Brett Hull the 7th and 4th best players of all time?

Fair point. Brett Hull is 23rd in all time point scoring, Although I can't say this with any kind of certainty I believe you will have some people who have him as high or higher than Francis and or Oates on their greatest forward lists, if I am correct and people do it is because he has been assigned more value because of his goal scoring prowess which is the point I am trying to make.

I can not defend Mike Gartner in this case, he is an extremely interesting outlier. A good player for so long he was able to rack up an impressive amount of goals without every being an elite player.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I didn't say they were the greatest forwards, I asked you why they are not considered since they meet your criteria.

How the hell is Gretzky your example of being inferior to goal scorers.. He's the highest goal scorer in NHL history.

Oates and Francis are absolutely players throughout the hockey community (old and newer) who are valued less then goal scorers. If they were valued the same then Francis would be the 5th best forward of all time (2nd in assists) and Oates would be considered the 18th best forward of all time (7th in assists) since that is where they rank in total points scored. Since neither of them are considered in the top 20 for all time forwards hockey people must value some other thing that offensive players tend to do.......something that players have done more of then Francis and Oates.........goals scored perhaps?

Gretzky is the greatest playmaker the game has ever seen, but again I said it was 1-2 the reasons why he was considered great. Not sure what you are arguing here. That he is not? If you do not know this, then I have to question have you ever watched Gretzky play. Blair Mcdonald once scored 46 goals playing with 99. If that is not a good example of the value of a playmaker, I don't know what is.

 

[wingnutks]

Fair point. Brett Hull is 23rd in all time point scoring, Although I can't say this with any kind of certainty I believe you will have some people who have him as high or higher than Francis and or Oates on their greatest forward lists, if I am correct and people do it is because he has been assigned more value because of his goal scoring prowess which is the point I am trying to make.

I can not defend Mike Gartner in this case, he is an extremely interesting outlier. A good player for so long he was able to rack up an impressive amount of goals without every being an elite player.

I agree that in a vacuum goals are more important than assists... but not a huge difference. I would usually rather have a 20G/60A guy over a 30G/40A

 

[Lemontree]

Gretzky is the greatest playmaker the game has ever seen, but again I said it was 1-2 the reasons why he was considered great. Not sure what you are arguing here. That he is not? If you do not know this, then I have to question have you ever watched Gretzky play. Blair Mcdonald once scored 46 goals playing with 99. If that is not a good example of the value of a playmaker, I don't know what is.

What the hell are you even talking about anymore? You have stated over and over again that Barzal's rookie year trumps Matthews because he has more points. As soon as Barzal hit 70 points you declared his season better in your mind. Some people in here disagree and believe that 40 goals and 69 points is more impressive that 20 goals and 80 points (will know exact number is a couple of weeks). You act as if all points are equal even though throughout hockey is is known that scoring a goal is more difficult then registering an assist.

You have been trying to use Wayne Gretzky as an example of how important play making is and trying to imply that he is considered the best player ever due to his assist numbers. Since Wayne Gretzky is the highest goal, assist and point leader in NHL history it is ridiculous that he is your example of valuing a play maker. Are you implying that people are so impressed with Gretzky's assist numbers they don't even care that he has 894 career goals? Or they don't care that he scored 50 goals in 39 games?

 

[Cleatus]

What the hell are you even talking about anymore? You have stated over and over again that Barzal's rookie year trumps Matthews because he has more points. As soon as Barzal hit 70 points you declared his season better in your mind. Some people in here disagree and believe that 40 goals and 69 points is more impressive that 20 goals and 80 points (will know exact number is a couple of weeks). You act as if all points are equal even though throughout hockey is is known that scoring a goal is more difficult then registering an assist.

You have been trying to use Wayne Gretzky as an example of how important play making is and trying to imply that he is considered the best player ever due to his assist numbers. Since Wayne Gretzky is the highest goal, assist and point leader in NHL history it is ridiculous that he is your example of valuing a play maker. Are you implying that people are so impressed with Gretzky's assist numbers they don't even care that he has 894 career goals? Or they don't care that he scored 50 goals in 39 games?

He’s the greatest argument deflector the world has ever seen. It’s his incredibly lame Marvel super power.

 

[Plural]

No matter what, it's still close between them.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

What the hell are you even talking about anymore? You have stated over and over again that Barzal's rookie year trumps Matthews because he has more points. As soon as Barzal hit 70 points you declared his season better in your mind. Some people in here disagree and believe that 40 goals and 69 points is more impressive that 20 goals and 80 points (will know exact number is a couple of weeks). You act as if all points are equal even though throughout hockey is is known that scoring a goal is more difficult then registering an assist.

You have been trying to use Wayne Gretzky as an example of how important play making is and trying to imply that he is considered the best player ever due to his assist numbers. Since Wayne Gretzky is the highest goal, assist and point leader in NHL history it is ridiculous that he is your example of valuing a play maker. Are you implying that people are so impressed with Gretzky's assist numbers they don't even care that he has 894 career goals? Or they don't care that he scored 50 goals in 39 games?

Well if you followed the discussion. A poster posted Matthews rookie season was more impressive due to the singular point of scoring 40 goals. I pointed out Barzal outproducing Matthews in points, in 73 points with 10 less games was more impressive. If he gets to 80 it will be even more impressive.

By your own criteria. You value this. As Barzal leads in points. As historically the Calder overwhelmingly goes to the better points producer, and not the just better goal scorer.

Wayne Gretzky is the highest goal, assist and point leader in NHL

So what is your exact problem do you have with the 57.4% of posters that use this criteria of picking Barzal's rookie year as better?

 

[nbwingsfan]

You need to stop making excuses. Leafs were The LAST place team in the nhl the year Matthews was drafted. He played on a line with 2 other rookies and led them to the playoffs, on a team with 7 other rookies (Hyman, brown, Marner, carrick, Zaitsev, nylander, Soshnkkov) he was the one other teams focused on. If all you’re looking at are points than you truly don’t understand how monumental what Matthews actually did.

This site is too quick to discredit what Matthews and the leafs did.

No one gave the leafs a chance to be relevant that year and Matthews made sure they were.

Im sure the addition of two other 60pt players, a top 4D, a #1G and no major injuries had nothing to do with it as well...

 

[wingnutks]

Im sure the addition of two other 60pt players, a top 4D, a #1G and no major injuries had nothing to do with it as well...

Or a pretty decent coach

 

[Lemontree]

Well if you followed the discussion. A poster posted Matthews rookie season was more impressive due to the singular point of scoring 40 goals. I pointed out Barzal outproducing Matthews in points, in 73 points with 10 less games was more impressive. If he gets to 80 it will be even more impressive.

By your own criteria. You value this. As Barzal leads in points. As historically the Calder overwhelmingly goes to the better points producer, and not the just better goal scorer.


So what is your exact problem do you have with the 57.4% of posters that use this criteria of picking Barzal's rookie year as better?

Do you really fail to see how using Gretzky is a poor example of trying to say assists are equal to goals?

A better comparative for your theory would be:

Ron Francis - 549 goals
1,249 assists
1,798 points

Gordie Howe - 841 goals
1,049 assists
1,850 points

Obviously these players are almost a wash, Howe is a little bit better because he has 52 more total points.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Do you really fail to see how using Gretzky is a poor example of trying to say assists are equal to goals?

A better comparative for your theory would be:

Ron Francis - 549 goals
1,249 assists
1,798 points

Gordie Howe - 841 goals

How about you answer the question. Do you have a problem with the 57.7% posters that voted for Barzal here because they value points over just goal scoring?

Or are you going to continue to dodge the question?

 

[Lemontree]

How about you answer the question. Do you have a problem with the 57.7% posters that voted for Barzal here because they value points over just goal scoring?

Or are you going to continue to dodge the question?

Yes, I have a problem with it. I am willing to bet they value Non-Leaf over Leaf player as opposed to points over goals.

I will await the poll for Barzal's rookie year compared to Laine's or MacDavid's rookie year.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Yes, I have a problem with it. I am willing to bet they value Non-Leaf over Leaf player as opposed to points over goals.

I will await the poll for Barzal's rookie year compared to Laine's or MacDavid's rookie year.

I'd take Barzal's rookie year over McDavid's rookie year easily. McDavid only scored a lousy 48 points.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Yes, I have a problem with it. I am willing to bet they value Non-Leaf over Leaf player as opposed to points over goals.

I will await the poll for Barzal's rookie year compared to Laine's or MacDavi'd's rookie year.

So points don't matter to you, only goals then. I think this would put you in singular company. 57.9% would disagree. I would not expect you to be posting in any Art Ross threads in the near future if goals is the only thing that matters to you.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Matthews, and it shouldn’t even be close.

Factor in age + the fact that Matthews was joining a 30th overall team + the Islanders having a 1C already in JT to take the prime matchups......

Barzal is 3 1/2 months older than Matthews.

 

[Menzinger]

Barzal is 3 1/2 months older than Matthews.

Their age when they played their rookie seasons....