Barzal rookie season vs. Matthews rookie season

[wingnutks]

4 players in the last 3 decades have scored 40+ goals as rookies. Selanne, Lindros, Ovi, and Matthews. Selanne, Lindros and Ovi did it in very high scoring seasons while Matthews did it in a lower scoring era, and led the whole league in 5v5 goals. Only 1 player even cracked 90+ points last season. When you adjust for era Matthews had one of the greatest rookie goal scoring seasons of all time. (And even without that he is still top 10 in goals as a rookie)

As well, Matthews played as the 1C without the luxury of having Tavares ahead of him. And he led the team into the playoffs too. And last but not least, Matthews did this straight out of the draft.

I'm not really sure why this poll has Barzal leading, let alone it even being this close. Yes Barzal has had a good year but I don't see why him ending up with 5-10 points more while being a rookie in his D+3 year somehow surpasses Matthews or even negates him in what he had accomplished as a rookie. Not to mention Barzal plays on a terrible team that's going to accomplish nothing this year and constantly cheats defense to generate offense.

Their rookie seasons are close but there is one clear winner IMO and that's Matthews. This place has the worst case of shiny new toy syndrome so there's that.

Stop, just stop.

 

[wingnutks]

Plus the Islanders will be missing the playoffs, where as Matthews lead the Leafs to them in his rookie season.

Do you think if Mathews was on the Isles this year instead of Barzal the Isles would be in the playoffs right now?

 

[LeafsNation75]

Do you think if Mathews was on the Isles this year instead of Barzal the Isles would be in the playoffs right now?

Assuming the Islanders still have the exact same roster I would say no because you also have to factor in that Mike Babcock is a much better coach than Doug Weight. Since Babcock wants to teach Matthews and the Leafs in general the correct way to play, it's still better than the run and gun offense Weight is doing with the Islanders.

 

[biotk]

4 players in the last 3 decades have scored 40+ goals as rookies. Selanne, Lindros, Ovi, and Matthews. Selanne, Lindros and Ovi did it in very high scoring seasons while Matthews did it in a lower scoring era, and led the whole league in 5v5 goals.

Matthews was also the only one who was D+1. Lindros and Ovi were both D+2. Selanne was D+5.

 

[wingnutks]

Assuming the Islanders still have the exact same roster I would say no because you also have to factor in that Mike Babcock is a much better coach than Doug Weight. Since Babcock wants to teach Matthews and the Leafs in general the correct way to play, it's still better than the run and gun offense Weight is doing with the Islanders.

So...
1) What the hell are you actually arguing then? Why the f*** are you holding Barzal to a standard you yourself admit Mathews couldnt accomplish?
2) for the 500th time, the Isles do not play run and gun offense, at all! They are just a really bad defensive team. They spend most of every game pinned in their own zone running around like a bunch of assholes. There is zero run and zero gun. STOP repeating stupid shit.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Matthews was also the only one who was D+1. Lindros and Ovi were both D+2. Selanne was D+5.

Matthews was also the third player selected 1st overall since 1997 to play in the playoffs in his Draft +1 season.

The only other players who have done that was Joe Thornton and Nathan MacKinnon.

 

[LeafsNation75]

So...
1) What the hell are you actually arguing then? Why the **** are you holding Barzal to a standard you yourself admit Mathews couldnt accomplish?
2) for the 500th time, the Isles do not play run and gun offense, at all! They are just a really bad defensive team. They spend most of every game pinned in their own zone running around like a bunch of *******s. There is zero run and zero gun. STOP repeating stupid ****.

Because the major difference is Mike Babcock is coaching the Maple Leafs with his experience compared to Doug Weight coaching the Islanders.

 

[wingnutks]

Because the major difference is Mike Babcock is coaching the Maple Leafs with his experience compared to Doug Weight coaching the Islanders.

No shit! How the hell is it a knock on Barzal that he has to deal with Doug Weight? I keep hearing that Mathews dragging the leafs to the playoffs is a giant factor of why his season was better than Barzal. But now your telling me Mathews couldnt get the Isles to the playoffs. Have you just talked yourself into circles? There are other reasons why Mathews rookie season was more impressive and what you are stating is not even close to one of them. Also, statistically speaking, and by the eye test, Barzal is the best defensive center on the team, and one of the best defensive forwards. So just go with something else.

 

[LeafsNation75]

No ****! How the hell is it a knock on Barzal that he has to deal with Doug Weight? I keep hearing that Mathews dragging the leafs to the playoffs is a giant factor of why his season was better than Barzal. But now your telling me Mathews couldnt get the Isles to the playoffs. Have you just talked yourself into circles? There are other reasons why Mathews rookie season was more impressive and what you are stating is not even close to one of them. Also, statistically speaking, and by the eye test, Barzal is the best defensive center on the team, and one of the best defensive forwards. So just go with something else.

Because other moves the Leafs made like trading for Frederik Andersen, drafting Mitch Marner, William Nylander, Connor Brown and hiring Mike Babcock made them an overall better team compared to anything the Islanders moves they made to get better and become a playoff team.

 

[wingnutks]

Because other moves the Leafs made like trading for Frederik Andersen, drafting Mitch Marner, William Nylander, Connor Brown and hiring Mike Babcock made them an overall better team compared to anything the Islanders moves they made to get better and become a playoff team.

You keep stating obvious things and avoiding the topic at hand. How does of this have to do with one of the reasons being stated that Mathews>>Barzal because MATHEWS carried his team to the playoffs?
By your own words, you say Mathews could not get this Isles team to the playoffs. Yet you knock Barzal because he cant do it either.

 

[LeafsNation75]

You keep stating obvious things and avoiding the topic at hand. How does of this have to do with one of the reasons being stated that Mathews>>Barzal because MATHEWS carried his team to the playoffs?
By your own words, you say Mathews could not get this Isles team to the playoffs. Yet you knock Barzal because he cant do it either.

For the last time I said Matthews could not get the Islanders to the playoffs because of how their team is constructed compared to the Maple Leafs. Not even Barzal and Tavares can lead the Islanders to the playoffs this season so I think my point has been well made.

 

[wingnutks]

For the last time I said Matthews could not get the Islanders to the playoffs because of how their team is constructed compared to the Maple Leafs. Not even Barzal and Tavares can lead the Islanders to the playoffs this season so I think my point has been well made.

Your point has been completely undone by yourself!
You said, and others have said many times in this thread, Mathews rookie season was more impressive because he got the Leafs to the playoffs and Barzal couldnt do the same for the Isles. But now you are saying the Leafs got to the playoffs because of Mathews AND a good goalie, and a great coach, and Marner, and Nylander (completely true and sensible statement). And you are saying Mathews couldnt get the current Isles team to the playoffs (also completely true and sensible statement).

1)Mathews > Barzal because he dragged leafs to the playoffs
2)Mathews had a better team with a better coach compared to Barzal
3)Mathews could not drag this current Islander team to the playoffs either

You literally cant believe these 3 things at the same time, its absurd.

 

[luki here]

If you say the Leafs barely squeaked in so did the Boston Bruins because both teams ended up tied with 95 points last season. I only bring that up because it was not just the Leafs that barely made the playoffs if you want to play that card.

Of course the leafs barely squeaked in. Isles had 1 point less and equal ROW. How anyone could argue otherwise is beyond me.

 

[ViewsFromThe6ix]

Can someone please show me a list of 19 year old centers to score 40 goals?

 

[WesMcCauley]

If my player scores alot of goals but has less points, goals are more important. If my player scores less goals but has more points, points are more important.

 

[1specter]

Stop, just stop.

No rebuttal, typical

 

[BayStreetBully]

40 goals and leading one’s team to the playoffs.

 

[wingnutks]

No rebuttal, typical

I have proven this run and gun offense thing false about a dozen times in this thread. The Isles are being trapped in there own zone and giving up more shots than any other team... they are not running and gunning back and forth. They are playing horrific team defense which leads to a ton of defensive zone time, shots against, and goals against. But you can keep regurgitating whatever you want about how Barzal is able to put up so many points because Weight said he doesnt have to play defense.
Also, even with this, Barzal is still a positive possession player with higher possession numbers, higher relative possession numbers, and less Ozone% starts than Mathews had in his rookie year. Barzal is also 2nd in the entire NHL in penalties drawn... not for rookies, for the entire NHL.

 

[Lemontree]

I have proven this run and gun offense thing false about a dozen times in this thread. The Isles are being trapped in there own zone and giving up more shots than any other team... they are not running and gunning back and forth. They are playing horrific team defense which leads to a ton of defensive zone time, shots against, and goals against. But you can keep regurgitating whatever you want about how Barzal is able to put up so many points because Weight said he doesnt have to play defense.
Also, even with this, Barzal is still a positive possession player with higher possession numbers, higher relative possession numbers, and less Ozone% starts than Mathews had in his rookie year. Barzal is also 2nd in the entire NHL in penalties drawn... not for rookies, for the entire NHL.

Could it be that the forwards fly the zone far to early and often looking to create scoring chances instead of first taking care of their defensive responsibilities and making sure to be in proper puck support position to get the puck out of the zone?

 

[wingnutks]

Could it be that the forwards fly the zone far to early and often looking to create scoring chances instead of first taking care of their defensive responsibilities and making sure to be in proper puck support position to get the puck out of the zone?

Not at all. If our Dmen can actually gain possession of the puck they are horrible at moving it out from below the dots. Our Dmen can not clear the puck is by far the biggest problem. Also both our goalies are really bad at playing the puck, so that doesnt help either. People also forget that our goalies combined SV% before New Years was around an .885.
Either way it doesnt matter because Barzal is actually a plus player 5v5 on this joke of a defensive team. He is doing his job at both ends of the ice.

 

[wingnutks]

We went months with our only 2 true experienced NHL Dmen being Leddy, and Hickey.

 

[Plural]

Matthews was also the third player selected 1st overall since 1997 to play in the playoffs in his Draft +1 season.

The only other players who have done that was Joe Thornton and Nathan MacKinnon.

Wow. That's pretty cool tidbit. While I don't really think making the playoffs is something we should heavily evaluate players on (a lot of superb players have missed playoffs several times in their careers) that's interesting piece of info. Probably tells more about Babcock than it does any singular player in Leafs roster. For example, Ovechkin and Crosby both objectively had superior rookie seasons to Matthews and neither made the playoffs. That doesn't mean Matthews was somehow better in his rookie season.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Wow. That's pretty cool tidbit. While I don't really think making the playoffs is something we should heavily evaluate players on (a lot of superb players have missed playoffs several times in their careers) that's interesting piece of info. Probably tells more about Babcock than it does any singular player in Leafs roster. For example, Ovechkin and Crosby both objectively had superior rookie seasons to Matthews and neither made the playoffs. That doesn't mean Matthews was somehow better in his rookie season.

To the contrary, I find it impressive that by leading his team to the playoffs, Matthews did something that Crosby and Ovechkin weren’t able to do. It doesn’t take away from Crosby or Ovechkin’s great rookie season, but it enhances Matthews’ season even more. Especially when considering the Leafs were dead last the year before. Then to lead his team in scoring as their #1 center, en route to the playoffs... that deserves praise; and for the purposes of this thread, makes his rookie season more impressive than Barzal’s.

 

[wingnutks]

Wow. That's pretty cool tidbit. While I don't really think making the playoffs is something we should heavily evaluate players on (a lot of superb players have missed playoffs several times in their careers) that's interesting piece of info. Probably tells more about Babcock than it does any singular player in Leafs roster. For example, Ovechkin and Crosby both objectively had superior rookie seasons to Matthews and neither made the playoffs. That doesn't mean Matthews was somehow better in his rookie season.

Exactly. Also, 1OA picks usually miss the playoffs because teams that select them were a shit team that year...usually improvement takes time. Toronto improved extremely quickly due to alot of reasons. Babcock being a big one for sure.

Would you rather have Mathews/Weight or Barzal/Babcock?

 

[Plural]

To the contrary, I find it impressive that by leading his team to the playoffs, Matthews did something that Crosby and Ovechkin weren’t able to do. It doesn’t take away from Crosby or Ovechkin’s great rookie season, but it enhances Matthews’ season even more. Especially when considering the Leafs were dead last the year before. Then to lead his team in scoring as their #1 center, en route to the playoffs... that deserves praise; and for the purposes of this thread, makes his rookie season more impressive than Barzal’s.

That's in the eye of the beholder. I'm not saying you're wrong in putting value to it. I don't think it means as much as you do, but then again it makes sense. It was your favorite team who was dead last and then made it to the playoffs the very next season. So I do understand why Leafs fans do consider what Matthews did more valuable because of that. On individual evaluation I don't find it to be all that important and it likely won't be for anyone outside of Leafs/Matthews fans.

I do think Barzal and Matthews rookie seasons are superbly close so far. I personally jump back and forth when trying to figure out which has been more impressive.