Babe Ruth's record - Who is NHL equivalent?

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by chooch*, Feb 26, 2006.

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  1. chooch*

    chooch* Guest

    Babe had the HR record and famously the most strikeouts also.

    I guess the equivalent is scoring a lot of points but being on the ice for many even strength goals against.

    anybody have a list of the Even Strength goals against in a career?
     
  2. Czech Your Math

    Czech Your Math Registered User

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    Good luck finding that stat

    Might start with the guys near the bottom of this list.

    Career Plus-Minus (active or recently retired)
    -----------------
    S. Stevens +377
    Lidstrom +283
    Fedorov +267
    Jagr +231
    Forsberg +227
    Lindros +217
    Leclair +214
    Messier +210
    Desjardins +197
    Yzerman +197
    Roenick +182
    Niedermayer +177
    Lehtinen +171
    Nieuwendyk +164
    Elias +147
    Zubov +144
    Turgeon +141
    Modano +139
    Shanahan +132
    Pronger +129
    Gagne +122
    Y. Kozlov +120
    Lemieux +115
    Demitra +107
    Amonte +101
    Palffy +83
    Alfredsson +82
    Robitaille +81
    Mogilny +81
    Guerin +74
    Peca +73
    Bondra +70
    Hossa +68
    Sundin +56
    Selanne +53
    Tkachuk +48
    Straka +47
    Stumpel +45
    Nagy +42
    Gonchar +41
    Kariya +40
    Thornton +40
    St. Louis +40
    Andreychuk +38
    Zetterberg +38
    Datsyuk +37
    Arnott +36
    Oates +35
    Naslund +31
    Satan +31
    Lang +30
    Leetch +29
    Iginla +27
    Recchi +24
    Sakic +23
    Br. Hull +23
    Brind'amour +3
    Blake 0
    Heatley -6
    Francis -10
    Kovalev -10
    Ricci -13
    Jovanovski -21
    Barnes -23
    Bertuzzi -24
    S. Young -28
    Mellanby -31
    Lecavalier -60
    Nash -62
    Kovalchuk -65
    Yashin -79
     
  3. LoudmouthHemskyfan#1

    LoudmouthHemskyfan#1 Registered User

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    No, that wouldn't be equivalent. Ruth still hit well over .300 and led in categories like RBI and Total Bases. Need a new comparison.
     
  4. hockeyfan125

    hockeyfan125 Registered User

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    Adam Dunn!
     
  5. Metallian*

    Metallian* Registered User

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    brett hull would be the most babe-like
     
  6. pnep

    pnep Registered User

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    Season....

    YEAR -- Franch. -- POS -- Player -- ESGA -- ESGF
    ============================================
    1978 -- NJ -- D -- Owchar Dennis -- 141 -- 80
    1990 -- PIT -- D -- Coffey Paul -- 140 -- 115
    1981 -- PHO -- D -- Babych Dave -- 139 -- 78
    1986 -- TOR -- D -- Nylund Gary -- 137 -- 105
    1984 -- PHO -- D -- Babych Dave -- 131 -- 100
    1973 -- VAN -- D -- Guevremont Jocelyn -- 130 -- 88
    1982 -- PHO -- D -- Babych Dave -- 129 -- 118
    1987 -- VAN -- D -- Lidster Doug -- 128 -- 93
    1982 -- DET -- D -- Larson Reed -- 128 -- 111
    1976 -- NYR -- D -- Vadnais Carol -- 127 -- 111
    1986 -- PHO -- D -- Ellett Dave -- 126 -- 88
    1980 -- STL -- D -- Lapointe Rick -- 126 -- 102
    1984 -- LA -- D -- Hardy Mark -- 125 -- 95
    1982 -- DET -- D -- Huber Willie -- 125 -- 109
    1982 -- NJ -- D -- Ramage Rob -- 125 -- 78
    1981 -- DET -- D -- Larson Reed -- 125 -- 90
    1979 -- STL -- D -- Gibbs Barry -- 125 -- 83
    1978 -- DAL -- D -- Maxwell Brad -- 125 -- 68


    YEAR -- Franch. -- POS -- Player -- ESGA -- ESGF
    =============================================
    1981 -- PHO -- L -- Lukowich Morris -- 108 -- 69
    1983 -- CAR -- L -- Sulliman Doug -- 107 -- 50
    1981 -- CAR -- L -- Boutette Pat -- 106 -- 93
    1981 -- PHO -- L -- Dupont Norm -- 105 -- 48
    1985 -- DET -- L -- Ogrodnick John -- 104 -- 105
    1986 -- PHO -- L -- Boschman Laurie -- 103 -- 74
    1975 -- DET -- L -- Bloom Mike -- 102 -- 50
    1974 -- BUF -- L -- Martin Rick -- 102 -- 80
    1989 -- LA -- L -- Robitaille Luc -- 100 -- 105
    1983 -- DET -- L -- Osborne Mark -- 100 -- 59
    1975 -- WAS -- L -- Marson Mike -- 100 -- 35

    YEAR -- Franch. -- POS -- Player -- ESGA -- ESGF
    ==============================================
    1989 -- LA -- C -- Gretzky Wayne -- 126 -- 141
    1990 -- COL -- C -- Sakic Joe -- 121 -- 81
    1986 -- EDM -- C -- Gretzky Wayne -- 120 -- 191
    1981 -- PHO -- C -- Christian Dave -- 119 -- 65
    1982 -- COL -- C -- Stastny Peter -- 118 -- 108
    1990 -- DET -- C -- Yzerman Steve -- 116 -- 110
    1975 -- DAL -- C -- Hextall Dennis -- 116 -- 72
    1990 -- LA -- C -- Gretzky Wayne -- 114 -- 122
    1985 -- PIT -- C -- Lemieux Mario -- 114 -- 79
    1982 -- PHO -- C -- Christian Dave -- 111 -- 70
    1991 -- COL -- C -- Sakic Joe -- 110 -- 84
    1981 -- CAR -- C -- Rogers Mike -- 110 -- 88
    1976 -- NJ -- C -- Charron Guy -- 110 -- 59
    1976 -- WAS -- C -- Pyatt Nelson -- 110 -- 54
    1975 -- DET -- C -- Dionne Marcel -- 110 -- 95
    1974 -- CLE -- C -- Boldirev Ivan -- 110 -- 59

    YEAR -- Franch. -- POS -- Player -- ESGA -- ESGF
    ==============================================
    1974 -- CLE -- R -- Leach Reggie -- 111 -- 50
    1985 -- DET -- R -- Duguay Ron -- 108 -- 92
    1976 -- WAS -- R -- Monahan Hartland -- 108 -- 59
    1993 -- PHI -- R -- Recchi Mark -- 105 -- 106
    1982 -- WAS -- R -- Gartner Mike -- 104 -- 93
    1985 -- PIT -- R -- Shedden Doug -- 103 -- 52
    1971 -- DET -- R -- Webster Tom -- 103 -- 56
    1984 -- PHO -- R -- DeBlois Lucien -- 102 -- 87
    1986 -- PIT -- R -- Duguay Ron -- 100 -- 56
    1983 -- CAR -- R -- Stoughton Blaine -- 100 -- 77
    1975 -- DAL -- R -- Goldsworthy Bill -- 99 -- 62
    1981 -- CAR -- R -- Stoughton Blaine -- 98 -- 81
    1981 -- NJ -- R -- McDonald Lanny -- 98 -- 71
    1980 -- EDM -- R -- MacDonald Blair -- 98 -- 99
     
  7. pnep

    pnep Registered User

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    Career....

    Player -- ESGA -- ESGF
    =========================
    Gretzky Wayne -- 1838 -- 2356
    Coffey Paul -- 1654 -- 1948
    Murphy Larry -- 1541 -- 1741
    Bourque Ray -- 1458 -- 1986
    Messier Mark -- 1455 -- 1662
    Francis Ron -- 1454 -- 1453
    Babych Dave -- 1422 -- 1199
    Stevens Scott -- 1399 -- 1789
    Housley Phil -- 1386 -- 1333
    Dionne Marcel -- 1368 -- 1396
    Salming Borje -- 1356 -- 1531
    Robinson Larry -- 1297 -- 2027
    Vadnais Carol -- 1281 -- 1219
    Yzerman Steve -- 1265 -- 1432
    Gartner Mike -- 1236 -- 1303
    Ramage Rob -- 1214 -- 1043
    Carlyle Randy -- 1208 -- 1073
    Hawerchuk Dale -- 1202 -- 1110
    Larson Reed -- 1180 -- 1052
    Oates Adam -- 1170 -- 1205
    Hatcher Kevin -- 1165 -- 1138
    Perreault Gilbert -- 1154 -- 1196
    MacInnis Al -- 1146 -- 1519
    Roberts Gordie -- 1135 -- 1185
    Kurri Jari -- 1126 -- 1424
    Gilmour Doug -- 1125 -- 1257
    Russell Phil -- 1124 -- 1176
    Leetch Brian -- 1120 -- 1149
    Adams Greg -- 1116 -- 1080
    Wilson Doug -- 1109 -- 1162
    Chelios Chris -- 1106 -- 1401
    Park Brad -- 1098 -- 1456
    Nicholls Bernie -- 1094 -- 1056
    Ciccarelli Dino -- 1091 -- 1089
    Ellett Dave -- 1081 -- 1033
    Robitaille Luc -- 1080 -- 1154
    Lemieux Mario -- 1072 -- 1205
    Murray Bob -- 1072 -- 1085
    Verbeek Pat -- 1049 -- 1005
    Muller Kirk -- 1044 -- 898
    Greschner Ron -- 1043 -- 963
    Stastny Peter -- 1041 -- 1029
    Esposito Phil -- 1040 -- 1237
    Andreychuk Dave -- 1038 -- 1098
    Stackhouse Ron -- 1036 -- 1077
    Lowe Kevin -- 1033 -- 1285
    Sittler Darryl -- 1025 -- 1078
    Damphousse Vincent -- 1021 -- 1035
    Federko Bernie -- 1019 -- 887
    Boldirev Ivan -- 1015 -- 825
    Hull Brett -- 1014 -- 1044
     
  8. chooch*

    chooch* Guest

    THANKS!!! Great job.

    Some guys I can understand because they were matched against the top offensive
    trios or played 40 min on Defence each night; but others...gosh awful hockey.....

    Funny I dont see any Montreal forwards.
     
  9. comparing Alexei Yashin to Babe Ruth just doesnt seem right
     
  10. reckoning

    reckoning Registered User

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    Apparently you missed the second column:
    Gretzky was on the ice for over 500 more goals for than against. One of the best career marks ever. Lemieux? Not so good.
     
  11. Czech Your Math

    Czech Your Math Registered User

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    Agreed, but neither is the notion that strikeouts are so bad. Maybe a better analogy would be Grounded Into Double Plays (killed offensive chances) or poor defensive play. I think he's looking for players like Brett Hull, Robitaille, Gartner, Mogilny, Nash, Kovalchuk, etc... players who put up big goal numbers, but whose playmaking and defense aren't great. Perhaps the closest type in baseball terms would be a power hitter hits lots of homers and drives in runs, but who doesn't get on base that much or play very good defense (e.g. Jim Rice, Don Baylor, Cecil Fielder, Sammy Sosa, Bobby Bonilla, etc.).
     
  12. kdb209

    kdb209 Registered User

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    Actually, no. Babe Ruth does not have the most career strikeouts. He is currently #78 on the all-time list with 1330 over 22 years (about 60/yr avg, 93 tops). Reggie Jackson is #1 with almost 2x - 2597 over 21 years (about 123/yr).

    A better equivalent for Babe Ruth would be a Vezina winning Goalie ditching the pads after 5 years and going on to score 700+ goals. Most people just don't appreciate how phenominal the Babe was - they just see the John Goodman like physique and assume he was just a big slow not-too-athletic guy. He spent his first 4+ seasons as a pitcher and still holds the 12th highest winning %-age (min 100 decisions) of all time - 94W 46L .671 w/ a 2.28 ERA. He very well might have made the HOF as a pitcher if he didn't also have the phenominal bat.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2006
  13. McThome

    McThome Registered User

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    Yeah, The Babe really has no comparison IMO. Barry Bonds isn't even close to the league that Ruth was. Nobody has ever dominated so completely a game in all manners as Ruth did baseball. As kdb said, it would have basicly been like Wayne Gretzky winning a Vezina and being a great goalie for the first part of his career then going on to do what he did. The Babe was hitting 60 homers when other top power hitters in the league could only dream of hitting 30.
     
  14. David Puddy

    David Puddy Registered User

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    I too take exception with the degredation of Babe Ruth. No one compares to Ruth as a batsman. He is first in all-time Slugging Average (which measures the quality of hits) with a .690 Slugging Average to Ted Williams .634 SLG. Ruth is second all-time a .474 On-Base Average to Ted William's .482 OBA.

    As for hockey, you have presented great statistics pnep, thank you. It would be interesting to see how Bobby Orr, Jean Beliveau and Gordie Howe's even-strength goal differntial stacked up, but I don't think they kept statistics that completely in their times.
     
  15. pnep

    pnep Registered User

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    YEAR -- Franch. -- POS -- Player -- GP -- ESGF -- ESGA
    ======================================================
    1968 -- BOS -- D -- Bobby Orr -- 46 -- 71 -- 41
    1969 -- BOS -- D -- Bobby Orr -- 67 -- 117 -- 52
    1970 -- BOS -- D -- Bobby Orr -- 76 -- 113 -- 59
    1971 -- BOS -- D -- Bobby Orr -- 78 -- 179 -- 55
    1972 -- BOS -- D -- Bobby Orr -- 76 -- 140 -- 54
    1973 -- BOS -- D -- Bobby Orr -- 63 -- 116 -- 60
    1974 -- BOS -- D -- Bobby Orr -- 74 -- 167 -- 83
    1975 -- BOS -- D -- Bobby Orr -- 80 -- 165 -- 85
    1976 -- BOS -- D -- Bobby Orr -- 10 -- 19 -- 9
    1977 -- CHI -- D -- Bobby Orr -- 20 -- 22 -- 16
    1979 -- CHI -- D -- Bobby Orr -- 6 -- 7 -- 5

    YEAR -- Franch. -- POS -- Player -- GP -- ESGF -- ESGA
    ======================================================
    1968 -- MTL -- C -- Jean Beliveau -- 59 -- 59 -- 32
    1969 -- MTL -- C -- Jean Beliveau -- 69 -- 74 -- 59
    1970 -- MTL -- C -- Jean Beliveau -- 63 -- 33 -- 32
    1971 -- MTL -- C -- Jean Beliveau -- 70 -- 64 -- 40

    YEAR -- Franch. -- POS -- Player -- GP -- ESGF -- ESGA
    ======================================================
    1968 -- DET -- R -- Gordie Howe -- 74 -- 83 -- 71
    1969 -- DET -- R -- Gordie Howe -- 76 -- 99 -- 54
    1970 -- DET -- R -- Gordie Howe -- 76 -- 67 -- 44
    1971 -- DET -- R -- Gordie Howe -- 63 -- 52 -- 54
    1980 -- CAR -- C -- Gordie Howe -- 80 -- 55 -- 46
     
  16. JCD

    JCD Registered User

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    I believe you can actually make that the best ever if I am not mistaken.
     
  17. pnep

    pnep Registered User

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    Best "Even Strength Goals Against per Game"
    (ESGF+ESGA>60)

    YEAR -- Franch. -- POS -- FIRST LAST -- GP -- ESGF -- ESGA -- ESGAPG
    ==============================================================
    1975 -- PHI -- C -- Bobby Clarke -- 80 -- 98 -- 19 -- 0,238

    1994 -- NJ -- C -- Bobby Holik -- 70 -- 46 -- 18 -- 0,257

    1971 -- BOS -- L -- Don Marcotte -- 75 -- 40 -- 20 -- 0,267
    1977 -- NYI -- L -- Bob Bourne -- 75 -- 47 -- 20 -- 0,267

    1974 -- PHI -- L -- Dave Schultz -- 73 -- 46 -- 20 -- 0,274
    1975 -- PHI -- R -- Reggie Leach -- 80 -- 75 -- 22 -- 0,275

    1989 -- CGY -- R -- Tim Hunter -- 75 -- 43 -- 21 -- 0,28
    2003 -- DAL -- C -- Niko Kapanen -- 82 -- 48 -- 23 -- 0,28
    2003 -- OTT -- C -- Shaun Van Allen -- 78 -- 39 -- 22 -- 0,282
    1998 -- NJ -- L -- Patrik Elias -- 74 -- 39 -- 21 -- 0,284
    1998 -- NJ -- R -- Randy McKay -- 74 -- 51 -- 21 -- 0,284
    1976 -- PHI -- C -- Bobby Clarke -- 76 -- 105 -- 22 -- 0,289

    1978 -- MTL -- R -- Yvan Cournoyer -- 68 -- 59 -- 20 -- 0,294
    1997 -- DAL -- R -- Todd Harvey -- 71 -- 40 -- 21 -- 0,296

    1998 -- DAL -- D -- Craig Ludwig -- 80 -- 45 -- 24 -- 0,3
    1994 -- BUF -- C -- Dave Hannan -- 83 -- 35 -- 25 -- 0,301
    2003 -- DAL -- D -- Stephane Robidas -- 76 -- 38 -- 23 -- 0,303
    1981 -- BUF -- D -- Mike Ramsey -- 72 -- 38 -- 22 -- 0,306
    1972 -- PHI -- L -- Bob Kelly -- 78 -- 40 -- 24 -- 0,308

    1985 -- BUF -- C -- Brent Peterson -- 74 -- 41 -- 23 -- 0,311
    1989 -- CGY -- L -- Colin Patterson -- 74 -- 67 -- 23 -- 0,311
    1983 -- PHI -- C -- Mark Taylor -- 61 -- 44 -- 19 -- 0,311
    2000 -- CAR -- L -- Bates Battaglia -- 77 -- 44 -- 24 -- 0,312
    1977 -- MTL -- C -- Doug Jarvis -- 80 -- 55 -- 25 -- 0,313
    1974 -- MTL -- L -- Steve Shutt -- 70 -- 41 -- 22 -- 0,314
    1979 -- NYI -- C -- Lorne Henning -- 73 -- 40 -- 23 -- 0,315
    1974 -- CHI -- L -- John Marks -- 76 -- 46 -- 24 -- 0,316
    1977 -- MTL -- R -- Murray Wilson -- 60 -- 44 -- 19 -- 0,317
    2002 -- VAN -- L -- Henrik Sedin -- 82 -- 35 -- 26 -- 0,317
    2000 -- STL -- L -- Jochen Hecht -- 63 -- 40 -- 20 -- 0,317

    1999 -- DET -- D -- Mathieu Dandenault -- 75 -- 41 -- 24 -- 0,32
    2000 -- OTT -- C -- Shaun Van Allen -- 75 -- 44 -- 24 -- 0,32
    1972 -- CHI -- R -- Chico Maki -- 62 -- 64 -- 20 -- 0,323
    1996 -- COL -- L -- Stephane Yelle -- 71 -- 38 -- 23 -- 0,324
    1973 -- MTL -- C -- Henri Richard -- 71 -- 57 -- 23 -- 0,324
    1972 -- NYR -- C -- Gene Carr -- 74 -- 40 -- 24 -- 0,324
    2001 -- DAL -- D -- Brad Lukowich -- 80 -- 54 -- 26 -- 0,325
    1975 -- LA -- L -- Mike Corrigan -- 80 -- 35 -- 26 -- 0,325
    2000 -- PHI -- L -- Simon Gagne -- 80 -- 37 -- 26 -- 0,325
    1996 -- CGY -- D -- Jamie Huscroft -- 70 -- 37 -- 23 -- 0,329
    1977 -- BUF -- R -- Gary McAdam -- 73 -- 41 -- 24 -- 0,329
    1985 -- BUF -- R -- Ric Seiling -- 73 -- 54 -- 24 -- 0,329
    1974 -- BOS -- R -- Terry O'Reilly -- 76 -- 55 -- 25 -- 0,329
    1996 -- ANA -- L -- Garry Valk -- 79 -- 34 -- 26 -- 0,329

    1974 -- BOS -- C -- Andre Savard -- 72 -- 40 -- 24 -- 0,333
    1975 -- CGY -- L -- Keith McCreary -- 78 -- 38 -- 26 -- 0,333
    2003 -- EDM -- D -- Scott Ferguson -- 78 -- 37 -- 26 -- 0,333
    2002 -- LA -- R -- Craig Johnson -- 72 -- 38 -- 24 -- 0,333
    1988 -- MTL -- L -- Bob Gainey -- 78 -- 34 -- 26 -- 0,333
    1979 -- MTL -- D -- Gilles Lupien -- 72 -- 57 -- 24 -- 0,333
    2003 -- DAL -- R -- Jere Lehtinen -- 80 -- 66 -- 27 -- 0,338
    1998 -- DET -- R -- Doug Brown -- 80 -- 44 -- 27 -- 0,338
    2001 -- NJ -- L -- John Madden -- 80 -- 51 -- 27 -- 0,338
    1977 -- NYI -- C -- Lorne Henning -- 80 -- 48 -- 27 -- 0,338
    1974 -- CHI -- L -- Darcy Rota -- 74 -- 41 -- 25 -- 0,338
    1985 -- CGY -- R -- Tim Hunter -- 71 -- 38 -- 24 -- 0,338
    1978 -- MTL -- C -- Pierre Mondou -- 71 -- 56 -- 24 -- 0,338
    1992 -- NJ -- R -- Doug Brown -- 71 -- 41 -- 24 -- 0,338
    1974 -- PHI -- C -- Terry Crisp -- 71 -- 36 -- 24 -- 0,338
    1976 -- PHI -- L -- Dave Schultz -- 71 -- 48 -- 24 -- 0,338
    1993 -- WAS -- R -- Keith Jones -- 71 -- 42 -- 24 -- 0,338
     
  18. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    Babe Ruth had 2062 walks and only 1330 Strike outs. Using his Strikeout total as a mark against him is mental. In every one of his full seasons as a Slugger he had far, far more walks than stikeouts. Like an average of 125 walks to 70 strikeouts. For a Slugger who got 45-60 Homeruns every year to have so few Stikrouts and so many walks indicates great bat control and strike zone management. Perhaps Reggie Jackson is the type of player you wish to allude to as having a weakness in taking too many strikeouts but the Babe is not a good example. He was great at everything. He was stellar on defence until late in his career due to having the best outfield arm in baseball. He was aggresive on the bases. Until later in his career he could be considered an excellent baserunner. He may have been a bit fat but so what it took little from his game offensively or defensively. He is the only baseball player that could fall into the Gretzky category as being obscenely better than anyone else. He was a true five tool player that had no weaknesses. The only comparable Hockey player was Orr who was peerless defewnsively and won 2 Art Ross as a Defenceman. But he never played goalie and Ruth was a top pitcher.

    To use Ruth as an example of a player with a significant weakness is pretty poor. Ruth can only be used as an example of greatness.
     
  19. chooch*

    chooch* Guest

    I'm taking the high road with you again, reckster.

    If you were a glass half full guy, you could say that there was a subtle Ruth-$99 comparison I was making (its true he is the Ruth of hockey). Instead you want to bring up what I overlooked - ?

    How about the only player to top more than once the evens strength goals against list for his position in his prime. I mean look at the 3 years $99 is on top of the list for at Centre. Those are prime prime years. Lemieux in 85 you can expect or Sakic in 89,90 (theyre young, their teams suck).

    And you know that many of the 2300 ESGF were scored at the end of 4-1 games potting a couple or assisting in a meaningless way.

    Come on - give him a break and stop dragging him into every discussion.
     
  20. reckoning

    reckoning Registered User

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    Well chooch, you need to look at the big picture. Gretzky was putting in more icetime in his prime than most other forwards, so obviously there`s going to be more goals both for and against when he`s on the ice than others. The key is making sure the goals for outnumber the goals against. Yes, Gretzky is the only centre on the list three times; those three times are also the only three + seasons on that list as well.

    So Lemieux was young on a team that sucked, well in NY Gretzky was old on a team that sucked, yet you love bringing up his minus seasons there. Can`t have it both ways. At least Gretzky never had a mark as bad as -35.

    Gretzky scored his points in meaningless blowouts? Haven`t we been through this about.. oh a hundred times before. Please provide proof if you`re going to keep beating that horse. What about Mario`s last game in `93, racking up 5 goals in a blowout against the last-place Rangers? Or his 5 goals in 5 different ways against a weak Devil team; one of those titanic 8-6 East defensive battles.

    Why do I always bring up Lemieux? Hey, it`s not as if I`ve started a "What least impressed you about Mario?" thread.
     
  21. chooch*

    chooch* Guest

    Let me say first of all I have a great deal of respect for US$99 as you well know.

    But I am very troubled to read your last comment. Very troubled.

    Let me say this: I'd be the first to post a thread like that on Mario if I thought he was getting a free ride. But after getting cancer and coming back to win the Ross in the same season and still getting criticised for his attitude and lack of love for hockey etc etc . i dont think you need me to post that - you just gotta listen to the Cherry's every day.

    As for your "arguments"....

    You want proof about blowouts, you provide proof about ice time!

    btw its defence that wins Cups not a bigger + than a - or whatever you said.
     
  22. Lupul*

    Lupul* Guest

    Are you the NHL? How do you get all these stats?
     
  23. pnep

    pnep Registered User

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    I have a NHL stats database (compiled from various sources)....

    and i not related to NHL (btw, im Russian)
     
  24. Fish on The Sand

    Fish on The Sand Untouchable

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    Some of the best other players were also banned while Ruth played. That would be like banning all europeans and french canadiens when gretz played. Obviously Ruth was a great, great player, but his numbers would have been weakened if he played against the likes of Paige, and his numbers wouldn't look as good comparitively when compared to somebody like Gibson. Unfortunatly, we will never know how different it would have been, a damn shame if you ask me. At the same time, Basbeall wouldn't have the same history, and a guy like Jackie Robinson would probably be unknown.
     
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