Line Combos: Babcock Undermines team potential with dubious lines make-up....

[Toronto makebeleifs]

This is a silly thread. I emplore you to look at the statistical differences over the last 3 years. Literally everything has improved since Babcock took over. EVERYTHING. Remember when we couldn't kill penalties? Remember when we couldn't score on the pp? Remember when the team literally GAVE UP? Come on now. Matthews is learning the defensive side of the game and eventually will produce offence by himself (ie. Without the need for skilled wingers) and when he does have skill on his wings it'll be even better. Nylander, while offensively talented, does have defensive shortcomings. He's playing sheltered minutes and will EARN his spot higher in the lineup with hard work. There are some players that I question should be on the team, but that's not Babcock's call, that would be Lou. So why not sit back and enjoy a team that works hard every game regardless of what the lineup may be because through continual improvement the wins will come.

 

[Field of Dreams]

I'd prefer Dale Tallon as TO's GM.

Babs is alright but TO finished last, last year and very well could again this year, Babs isn't a miracle worker but he is paid as if he is.

Hyman retrieves the puck then throws it away with no look passes or simply bad passes.

TO's PKing record has been good and I'm sure Smith is a legitimate part of the success. Good for him but will he be around next year. I wonder if Matthews, Marner, Nylander might be even better as a PKer. Bozak has been a PKer and is pretty good at the FO circle. The PKing might end up with a worse record but the big 3 would be gaining experience.

Hyman, Brown in the top 6 doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, I consider Kardi's line the #2 and Matthews #1, because somebody needs to score especially from those lines and the likelihood of those lines scoring increases with quality players, playing together.

I'd like to see the top 2 lines be:

Nylander/Kadri/Bozak-Nylander had been a right shooting LW until he became a Marlie

JVR/Matthews/Marner

That's putting all of the offensive weapons on 2 lines and hopefully the Kadri line can continue to be a shutdown line thru possession rather than defending.

And I'd prefer Steve Yzerman.. Lou is still a great gm.

We do have the best coach, and expecting him do do any better with last year's roster is laughable. This year he's somehow managed to be competitive in nearly every game despite having 6 rookies on the roster.

Now with that said, There's a reason the best coach in the world has decided to arrange the lines like he has. You are a fan, with no nhl coaching experience, looking inside from the outside. You or any other person on this forum has niether the perspective, the insight, or the experience to challenge Babcock's decisions.

 

[thewave]

And I'd prefer Steve Yzerman.. Lou is still a great gm.

We do have the best coach, and expecting him do do any better with last year's roster is laughable. This year he's somehow managed to be competitive in nearly every game despite having 6 rookies on the roster.

Now with that said, There's a reason the best coach in the world has decided to arrange the lines like he has. You are a fan, with no nhl coaching experience, looking inside from the outside. You or any other person on this forum has niether the perspective, the insight, or the experience to challenge Babcock's decisions.

This last part is false. We can certainly challenge his decisions and some have. I think Hyman is a black hole overall and most agree Babcock has his faults Clear(l)y

 

[ShaneFalco]

And I'd prefer Steve Yzerman.. Lou is still a great gm.

We do have the best coach, and expecting him do do any better with last year's roster is laughable. This year he's somehow managed to be competitive in nearly every game despite having 6 rookies on the roster.

Now with that said, There's a reason the best coach in the world has decided to arrange the lines like he has. You are a fan, with no nhl coaching experience, looking inside from the outside. You or any other person on this forum has niether the perspective, the insight, or the experience to challenge Babcock's decisions.

Please, Lord Babcock is not above being questioned
Carlyle won a cup, I suppose we should have kept quiet about his decisions too because he's an NHL coach and we're not
This "best coach in the world" thing is getting a tad silly

 

[ULF_55]

Obviously, stacking lines is effective, check out some of the teams that have won Cups.

But they are stacked for reasons, and usually situationally.

Malkin does play with Crosby ... at times.

Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

But they also use those players to individually carry lines.

If only things were binary.

 

[Gary Nylund]

1) Matthews is 19
2) Marner is 19
3) Nylander is 20
4) Brown is 22
5) Sosh is 23
6) Hyman is 24

All are rookies.

JVR, Bozak, Kadri and Leo, are literally, these kids mentors.

There are not enough skilled vets to go around.

Marner was the smallest and highest risk asset to keep with the team, and so that likely played a part in being matched up with 2 vets.

Nylander and Matthews had insane chemistry and even more insane corsi numbers to begin the season; best in the league as a matter of fact, along with Hyman. They remained dominating the puck until Willy started under performing 5 on 5. This is when Brown began heating it up. And the OP has clearly never heard of Connor Brown before this year but I'm sure someone's tried explaining to him who he is.

Willy was placed with Kadri recently because Kadri can show Willy how to compete better 5 on 5 and make his own chances.

Brown upgraded to play with Matthews because Brown deserved it, and because Matthews has consistently been putting up strong possession numbers and Brown would benefit him. Brown is no fourth liner, he is a rover who can play anywhere in the top 12.

Babs is giving a culture that you need to pay your dues - and this does not come after a few months of good hockey - it takes time. This is the Leafs culture brought in from Detroit. The throne is waiting for the likes of Matthews/Marner/Nylander, but this is not the season they will be handed it.

That 13 game stretch Matthews went without a goal was a learning experience - in the absolute perfect season for there to ever be one. Crosby never went more than 9 games in his career without a goal, and both McDavid and Matthews went 12/13 respectively this year without one. McLellan and Babcock clearly share similar beliefs in that a young player must fight out of his problems on his own.

Babcock did give him favourable minutes on the PP and at end of games with an empty net, but he did not go over the top and say here, play 24 minutes a night and all 8 mins on the PP and don't pass the puck till you score.

Instead, Matthews continued to perform well defensively and learned how to play out of that streak, the same way McDavid did, but with far less minutes.

The culture being set here is perfect for these three kids. The last thing you want is to give them the keys to the Ferrari right now. They are being taught valuable lessons. They are being taught to play for the logo and place their egos aside.... all rookies at once. No one is more important than another. And they have all bought in, despite the reality.

This is what will forge a dynasty.

To criticize Babcock at this juncture is downright embarrassing, and I'm convinced you are a Habs fan trolling, OP.

This guy gets it!

 

[thewave]

This guy gets it!

So the answer to life is to blindly trust and have the faith. I prefer forming my own opinions and good debate, criticism etc, heck the old hurled insult never hurt anybody either. I'll stick with Hyman is sucking the life out of Mathews.

 

[Field of Dreams]

Please, Lord Babcock is not above being questioned
Carlyle won a cup, I suppose we should have kept quiet about his decisions too because he's an NHL coach and we're not
This "best coach in the world" thing is getting a tad silly

The point is, if you are complaining about babcock, you will never be satisfied - you're not going to get much better.

Babcock has earned the benefit of the doubt. Comparing him to Carlyle is a tad silly.

 

[Gary Nylund]

So the answer to life is to blindly trust and have the faith. I prefer forming my own opinions and good debate, criticism etc, heck the old hurled insult never hurt anybody either. I'll stick with Hyman is sucking the life out of Mathews.

Trusting Babcock is hardly blind. The guy has some pretty impressive credentials as I'm sure you're aware, I think we should give the guy some rope is all. As has been said many times, it's a process.

 

[Joey Hoser]

So the answer to life is to blindly trust and have the faith. I prefer forming my own opinions and good debate, criticism etc, heck the old hurled insult never hurt anybody either. I'll stick with Hyman is sucking the life out of Mathews.

Trusting Mike Babcock's judgement for the time being isn't "blind" or "faith". He's Mike ****ing Babcock. If you aren't convinced he's a good hockey coach, who do you think is?

Not saying he's perfect and beyond criticism, but geez.

 

[Trapper]

Trusting Babcock is hardly blind. The guy has some pretty impressive credentials as I'm sure you're aware, I think we should give the guy some rope is all. As has been said many times, it's a process.

Even if people don't want to trust Babcock: (I don't see why not but ok)
The difference in teams between then and now is sustainability.
All the underlying numbers suggest this team will make positive gains as experience, talent and a key hole or two get plugged.

Until this changes, why would you not expect improvement and a team that can challenge yearly. Why would you take 25 games and worry about Nylander playing 4th line center or Hyman on the wing with Matthews today?

 

[thewave]

Trusting Mike Babcock's judgement for the time being isn't "blind" or "faith". He's Mike ****ing Babcock. If you aren't convinced he's a good hockey coach, who do you think is?

Not saying he's perfect and beyond criticism, but geez.

Why even post this if you agree he is not beyond criticism? The OP basically replied to a post that was pledging alegence to Mike and declared Babcock Pope.

 

[Rogie]

So the answer to life is to blindly trust and have the faith. I prefer forming my own opinions and good debate, criticism etc, heck the old hurled insult never hurt anybody either. I'll stick with Hyman is sucking the life out of Mathews.

Matthews is doing well - pretty well.

Matthews is already 5th in shots in the NHL, 2nd among rookies in goals, and 2nd among rookies in points and on pace for over 60 points.

Yeah, a more elite offensive player than Hyman could definitely add some more points, but, maybe that player doesn't dig pucks out of the corners and maybe that line isn't as good at possession as it is (they are starting to look like that 'heavy' type of play) and what if they don't have that much more production, or say, they get a few more goals, but aren't as good defensively.

That is possible and I think in fact it's quite plausible.

 

[LeafsNation149]

JVR-Matthews-Marner
Brown-Bozak-Nylander
Komarov-Kadri-Soshnikov
Martin-Smith-Hyman

What do you guys think?
Tried to keep balance between the lines with defence and offence while creating a nice checking line with Kadri


Future line ups for me are


JVR-Matthews-Marner
Kapanen-Nylander-Brown
Leipsic-Kadri-Soshnikov
Martin-Gauthier-Hyman

 

[saltming]

What is wrong with this coach?

 

[ShaneFalco]

The point is, if you are complaining about babcock, you will never be satisfied - you're not going to get much better.

Babcock has earned the benefit of the doubt. Comparing him to Carlyle is a tad silly.

You said don't question coaches because we're not one.
The point is, Babcock could totally fail here. Would he still be the best coach in the world?
Does it matter now what he did in Detroit?

All I'm saying is I don't think we should proclaim that noone else could be better here because coaches have different strengths, systems, philosophies etc that may work for one team, and not another.

 

[Walshy7]

What is wrong with this coach?

I have worked out. Bozak has gained interest and they are going to move him, but if at practise they put nylander with bozak and they alternate every one will catch wind of it so they are using kadri/nylander until deal is done. a man can have dreams cant he?

 

[Ciao]

So the answer to life is to blindly trust and have the faith. I prefer forming my own opinions and good debate, criticism etc, heck the old hurled insult never hurt anybody either. I'll stick with Hyman is sucking the life out of Mathews.

Hey, Wave, we're all free to express our own opinions no matter how silly we look

No probs with criticizing Babcock.

However, if the substance of the criticism is that he has the wrong line combinations, that's just pretty weak.

There's so much more that goes into coaching that the line combos are just one small part of it.

Over-the-top criticism that Babs is "sucking the life" out of the Leafs because some armchair coach would put different lines out, as though it were a video game and that's the only available user input, is just plain silly.

Better and more well rounded coaching criticism would draw a different response.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Hey, Wave, we're all free to express our own opinions no matter how silly we look

No probs with criticizing Babcock.

However, if the substance of the criticism is that he has the wrong line combinations, that's just pretty weak.

There's so much more that goes into coaching that the line combos are just one small part of it.

Over-the-top criticism that Babs is "sucking the life" out of the Leafs because some armchair coach would put different lines out, as though it were a video game and that's the only available user input, is just plain silly.

Better and more well rounded coaching criticism would draw a different response.

Well put IMO. As long as I've been on this board there has been discussions about line combos and no matter what, there are people who aren't happy with what the coach is doing. I'm pretty sure this will be the case until the end of time.

 

[thewave]

What is wrong with this coach?

Im ok with this but two guys that really need in the blender are Hyman and Komarov. Sosh is being used wrong and would be a great fit for Mathews!

 

[nsleaf]

This is the first season in a very, very long time that the vast majority of Leaf fans at the start of the season actually felt a real sense of hope and anticipation for the future because of the plethora of young top notch talent available to the team. Most of us have never seen this before and are understandably excited, but to be calling out the coach's decisions so soon into this seems to be a bit pre-mature or more of a knee jerk reaction. Personally I think the Leafs are just where I thought they would be and do appear to be making positive steps forward and the young talent is awesome.

 

[ACC1224]

So the answer to life is to blindly trust and have the faith. I prefer forming my own opinions and good debate, criticism etc, heck the old hurled insult never hurt anybody either. I'll stick with Hyman is sucking the life out of Mathews.

It's fine to have an opinion if it's informed.

 

[thewave]

It's fine to have an opinion if it's informed.

I totally agree! Sosh would be a great fit with Mathews!

 

[moon111]

So the answer to life is to blindly trust and have the faith. I prefer forming my own opinions and good debate, criticism etc, heck the old hurled insult never hurt anybody either. I'll stick with Hyman is sucking the life out of Mathews.

What's Matthews +/- with Soshnikov rather then Hyman?

 

[ChickenMcNugget]

The Leafs are dead last in the conference. I think it's time some of our "star" players learn to play a full 200 ft game. If that means being played on the 4th line so be it. All that matters is that they are put in a position to learn.