Line Combos: Babcock Undermines team potential with dubious lines make-up....

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Wafflewhipper

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Jan 18, 2014
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It's cute that you've attempted to project your frustration on me, and basically parrot what put you in a hole, but this was over a long time ago.

I don't need an infraction embarrassing you. Simple as. If you feel so strongly that I'm wrong, and wanted to continue, I was generous enough to offer you an avenue. Your ability to understand where you've come up short is noble.

What are you getting so angry for. Really just hit the power button and don't post a infraction. Actually you deserve a infraction for your laughable statement that the three super rookies wouldn't doninate. Wow that you keep going to. But you are right ok.
 

Ropesman

Registered User
May 1, 2016
1,695
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Charlottetown
Corrado was given a no-win situation, he only plays once on a back to back vs the ****ing Stanley cup champs. It's disgusting what they are doing to this kid, I don't care if he is the worst player to ever strap on skates, you don't treat players like this. Waive him or play him. We all know Babcock will recommend waiving him over honey boo-boo no matter how well he plays anyway.

Yeah its pretty frustrating when it comes to Frankie. Its one thing to stick an older bubble player in the press box, those guys understand their role. Frankie is still young and you have to imagine he still has some upside left in his game. Really could hurt the guy going forward in his career.
 

ErnieLeafs

Registered User
Apr 7, 2009
12,012
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What are you getting so angry for. Really just hit the power button and don't post a infraction. Actually you deserve a infraction for your laughable statement that the three super rookies wouldn't doninate. Wow that you keep going to. But you are right ok.

Look, you got upset at the notion that it was counter-productive to stack a line with a short shelf life, and resorted to attempting to insult the intelligence of others. It's a completely natural defense mechanism. All animals do it when cornered. I told you to calm down. Think, don't feel. Others agreed with me. The principle of diversifying your lineup is simple and effective.

When you ran out of retorts, you've now taken to the strategy of telling ME that I'm getting emotional. It worked for me to call out your anger, so why not try to flip the script, right?

Look, this has gotten silly. When you watch more in depth, maybe get involved in hockey at the ground floor, and stop thinking of simply offense, you'll come around. There is hope for you yet, just not in your current state.
 

Ciao

Registered User
Jul 15, 2010
9,945
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Toronto
That line has never been put together for the exact reason I stated. It takes away from the balance throughout the lineup.

They don't have the ability to legitimately stack a line for more than a game or two. These are rookies. Veteran pros and veteran coaching will shut them down. Are you absolutely daft? When that line is nullified, then what? What do you do then?

We are a top 10 scoring team in the league. Our problem isn't on offense. We have a defemsive core that isn't fully developed and not completed in pieces yet. Babcock is making everyone develop their game, in an all-around fashion. I used to absolutely revel in coaching against people with your mentality. It was like toying with people.

Kinda like this conversation..

I agree with you too.

Matthews scored four goals in the season opener and has had to build his scoring back up since. He's learning to make adjustments, and that will take time.

Marner has had consistent success playing with two vets. No mistake there either.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if a Matthews-Marner-Nylander line would have to go through a significant period of learning and adjustment before achieving consistent success too.

I really don't think it would be good for their development either. Kind of reminds me of the Benning, Boimistruck, McGill experiment. Benning and McGill survived, but the lack of veteran depth and experience destroyed Fred Boimistruck's confidence and truncated what could have been a very productive career.

I think the Leafs coaching staff knows what they're doing.

I think the guy(s) here on too much Red Bull with too much **** and vinegar haven't got a clue.

You don't just throw a bunch of rookies together and hope for the best.
 

hobarth

Registered User
Jul 10, 2011
1,160
294
I'm lost for words reading this thread... Are we really going to play the blame game when our record is exactly as predicted?

And it gets much worse: We are blaming Babcock, you know, that guy who is widely regarded as the best coach in the world?

What?

Other fan bases would murder for 8 years of babcock.. Other fanbases would kill for a gm team like lou. Hell people would kill for our assistant gm. Who exactly are we supposed to hire if they are run out of town?

This is insanity.

Hyman is doing his job, retrieving the puck.

Having smith on your pk is better than having a mediocre player in Holland playing on your 4th. Smith is going to prevent alot more goals than holland would score on the 4th line. Holland doesn't have a bottom 6 skillset and isn't skilled enough to even look at the top 6. He's useless.

Nylander is being developed as a centre, and there are currently 3 centres who are currently better than him at that role.

I'd prefer Dale Tallon as TO's GM.

Babs is alright but TO finished last, last year and very well could again this year, Babs isn't a miracle worker but he is paid as if he is.

Hyman retrieves the puck then throws it away with no look passes or simply bad passes.

TO's PKing record has been good and I'm sure Smith is a legitimate part of the success. Good for him but will he be around next year. I wonder if Matthews, Marner, Nylander might be even better as a PKer. Bozak has been a PKer and is pretty good at the FO circle. The PKing might end up with a worse record but the big 3 would be gaining experience.

Hyman, Brown in the top 6 doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, I consider Kardi's line the #2 and Matthews #1, because somebody needs to score especially from those lines and the likelihood of those lines scoring increases with quality players, playing together.

I'd like to see the top 2 lines be:

Nylander/Kadri/Bozak-Nylander had been a right shooting LW until he became a Marlie

JVR/Matthews/Marner

That's putting all of the offensive weapons on 2 lines and hopefully the Kadri line can continue to be a shutdown line thru possession rather than defending.
 

ErnieLeafs

Registered User
Apr 7, 2009
12,012
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I agree with you too.

Matthews scored four goals in the season opener and has had to build his scoring back up since. He's learning to make adjustments, and that will take time.

Marner has had consistent success playing with two vets. No mistake there either.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if a Matthews-Marner-Nylander line would have to go through a significant period of learning and adjustment before achieving consistent success too.

I really don't think it would be good for their development either. Kind of reminds me of the Benning, Boimistruck, McGill experiment. Benning and McGill survived, but the lack of veteran depth and experience destroyed Fred Boimistruck's confidence and truncated what could have been a very productive career.

I think the Leafs coaching staff knows what they're doing.

I think the guy(s) here on too much Red Bull with too much **** and vinegar haven't got a clue.

You don't just throw a bunch of rookies together and hope for the best.

Let alone claim that they would dominate the league, less than 40 games into their careers. And I'm being ridiculous?
 

Ciao

Registered User
Jul 15, 2010
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Toronto
What are you getting so angry for. Really just hit the power button and don't post a infraction. Actually you deserve a infraction for your laughable statement that the three super rookies wouldn't doninate. Wow that you keep going to. But you are right ok.

Actually, I think he is right too.
 

burpsalot

Registered User
Feb 12, 2015
5,633
0
I'm sorry but anyone who states Hyman is "retriveing the puck" is insane. He literally spends 95% of his time losing the puck/battles. On very rare occasions, he not only retrieves the puck but actually gives it to someone in a good position.

:handclap:
 

Wafflewhipper

Registered User
Jan 18, 2014
14,114
5,694
Look, you got upset at the notion that it was counter-productive to stack a line with a short shelf life, and resorted to attempting to insult the intelligence of others. It's a completely natural defense mechanism. All animals do it when cornered. I told you to calm down. Think, don't feel. Others agreed with me. The principle of diversifying your lineup is simple and effective.

When you ran out of retorts, you've now taken to the strategy of telling ME that I'm getting emotional. It worked for me to call out your anger, so why not try to flip the script, right?

Look, this has gotten silly. When you watch more in depth, maybe get involved in hockey at the ground floor, and stop thinking of simply offense, you'll come around. There is hope for you yet, just not in your current state.

Ok then just focus on elevating your knowledge of hockey and just remain angry and manipulative. No i am not private messaging with you to argue also. Just go relax or something. Its seems like a very graphic explaination of your own feeling the way you so eloquently explained being a cornered animal.

Anyways you are still off your rocker mocking the idea of a Marner Matthews Nylander line That would be exciting and successful. Fine you believe that they wouldn't be a good bet to move forward with. You should leave the thread if you are angered.
 

ErnieLeafs

Registered User
Apr 7, 2009
12,012
2,115
Ok then just focus on elevating your knowledge of hockey and just remain angry and manipulative. No i am not private messaging with you to argue also. Just go relax or something. Its seems like a very graphic explaination of your own feeling the way you so eloquently explained being a cornered animal.

Anyways you are still off your rocker mocking the idea of a Marner Matthews Nylander line That would be exciting and successful. Fine you believe that they wouldn't be a good bet to move forward with. You should leave the thread if you are angered.

See: the post above this one. Just stop.
 

ErnieLeafs

Registered User
Apr 7, 2009
12,012
2,115
:laugh:

You want a poll as to whether we should stack 3 rookies and keep that line together, over balancing scoring/defense throughout the lineup?

You may actually have enough people around here who don't like me at all, and it may look closer than it should, but probably not. It's pretty simple lineup dynamics.

This is gonna go well
 

Ciao

Registered User
Jul 15, 2010
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Toronto
Let alone claim that they would dominate the league, less than 40 games into their careers. And I'm being ridiculous?

No.

Not unless hockey is a video game. If it were, he's got it mastered.

However, if we're talking about adult men, experienced professional hockey players, playing a fast, physical game against raw rookies, then he's on the wrong planet.

Leafs Nation has seen this movie before, and we don't need to see it again.

What the coaches are doing just responsible player development. It won't take them long, but there is a process.
 

ErnieLeafs

Registered User
Apr 7, 2009
12,012
2,115
No.

Not unless hockey is a video game. If it were, he's got it mastered.

However, if we're talking about adult men, experienced professional hockey players, playing a fast, physical game against raw rookies, then he's on the wrong planet.

Leafs Nation has seen this movie before, and we don't need to see it again.

What the coaches are doing just responsible player development. It won't take them long, but there is a process.

Logo's feelings is the pain Babcock spoke about in his introductory presser. I get it now.
 

Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
70,212
9,189
No one is saying that a line of Marner, Matthews and Nylander wouldn't be exciting.
people are saying basically after the first game (if not the third period), coaching will shut it down right quick, and then the whole team will suffer because there is a lack of scoring options and creativity on the other lines.

it's not that complicated.
 

Ciao

Registered User
Jul 15, 2010
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5,750
Toronto
Well my sympathies.

Thanks.

I'm a long time Leafs fan, and would hate to see the confidence and development of good young players destroyed by the likes of you.

The guys in charge really do know what they're doing.

Instant gratification is not their thing.
 

saltming

Fan Addict
Oct 6, 2015
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Do a poll and don't feed the bears.

The line would look pretty and do lots of fancy stuff with the puck but as coach babcock said, "you can't pass the puck into the net."

If it was so easy to score AND dominate in the nhl we wouldn't have terms like "adjustment period" "learning to play the pro game" "sophomore slump" and many other aphorisms used to talk about how hard it is to score, much less dominate in the nhl.

Oh and don't mow the lawn in bare feet.
 

TankNationTillDeath

Pylon4Sale
Jan 10, 2014
788
0
Toronto
1) Matthews is 19
2) Marner is 19
3) Nylander is 20
4) Brown is 22
5) Sosh is 23
6) Hyman is 24

All are rookies.

JVR, Bozak, Kadri and Leo, are literally, these kids mentors.

There are not enough skilled vets to go around.

Marner was the smallest and highest risk asset to keep with the team, and so that likely played a part in being matched up with 2 vets.

Nylander and Matthews had insane chemistry and even more insane corsi numbers to begin the season; best in the league as a matter of fact, along with Hyman. They remained dominating the puck until Willy started under performing 5 on 5. This is when Brown began heating it up. And the OP has clearly never heard of Connor Brown before this year but I'm sure someone's tried explaining to him who he is.

Willy was placed with Kadri recently because Kadri can show Willy how to compete better 5 on 5 and make his own chances.

Brown upgraded to play with Matthews because Brown deserved it, and because Matthews has consistently been putting up strong possession numbers and Brown would benefit him. Brown is no fourth liner, he is a rover who can play anywhere in the top 12.

Babs is giving a culture that you need to pay your dues - and this does not come after a few months of good hockey - it takes time. This is the Leafs culture brought in from Detroit. The throne is waiting for the likes of Matthews/Marner/Nylander, but this is not the season they will be handed it.

That 13 game stretch Matthews went without a goal was a learning experience - in the absolute perfect season for there to ever be one. Crosby never went more than 9 games in his career without a goal, and both McDavid and Matthews went 12/13 respectively this year without one. McLellan and Babcock clearly share similar beliefs in that a young player must fight out of his problems on his own.

Babcock did give him favourable minutes on the PP and at end of games with an empty net, but he did not go over the top and say here, play 24 minutes a night and all 8 mins on the PP and don't pass the puck till you score.

Instead, Matthews continued to perform well defensively and learned how to play out of that streak, the same way McDavid did, but with far less minutes.

The culture being set here is perfect for these three kids. The last thing you want is to give them the keys to the Ferrari right now. They are being taught valuable lessons. They are being taught to play for the logo and place their egos aside.... all rookies at once. No one is more important than another. And they have all bought in, despite the reality.

This is what will forge a dynasty.

To criticize Babcock at this juncture is downright embarrassing, and I'm convinced you are a Habs fan trolling, OP.
 

htpwn

Registered User
Nov 4, 2009
20,531
2,607
Toronto
The Leafs this year have 7 or 8 rookies in the lineup on a nightly basis. For Babcock, a large part of it is finding players he can trust. Babcock is on record saying he doesn’t like starting rookies in the middle but with Matthews, he didn’t have much of a choice, so he’s paired him with (in his eyes) his most trustworthy player, Zach Hyman. For all his faults on the offensive end, Hyman is a reliable defensive presence and solid forechecker. The intended effect is probably to take some of the defensive pressure off of Matthews. Ditto with Brown, who replaced Nylander on that line after Matthews went into a scoring slump. In other words… Babcock is sheltering Matthews, and the offensive zone start % for that line supports that theory. Whether that’s justified, for a kid as talented at both ends of the ice as Matthews, is another matter entirely.

Incidently, Marner’s got the opposite problem: He has more offensive weapons to work with the offensive zone but needs to carry more of the defensive burden because of Bozak and JVR’s deficiencies in that regard. But he’s also a winger, not a centre, and he’s a year older than Matthews which may be why Babcock is more willing to shelter him less.

More than anybody, Nylander is the one getting the short stick (well, aside from poor Frankie Corrado, but that’s another story :laugh:). Babcock clearly doesn’t trust him defensively and may have felt his deficiencies were dragging down Matthews. So he was moved off that line in favour of Brown, a player Babcock did trust. First on the road, when lines couldn’t be matched, and now permanently. Problem is, aside from playing with Matthews, where else is he going to play? With JVR/Bozak seems like a bad idea as does playing him on a shutdown line alongside Kadri. Instead he ends up on the 4th line with Smith and Martin.

The right solution is probably to put Nylander back with Matthews and have Brown on the opposite wing, but for that to happen, Babs needs to be willing to unwrap some of the bubble wrap around Matthews.
 

Apotheosis

Registered User
Mar 27, 2014
11,605
5,140
Toronto, Ontario
People need to trust the process. A contender isn't built over night. Matthews, Marner and Nylander are all learning to play responsibly. We know they're offensively talented. It won't be long before we see Matthews and Marner on one line and Nylander-Kapanen on another. There's no point in stacking one line with all the talent either. You want depth because the game is played at such a fast pace that you don't have long shifts like the 80's. You would get dominated game in and game out if you played all your best players on one line.
 

Diatomic

Mitch Matthewlander
Mar 12, 2013
9,178
81
Air Canada Centre
The Leafs this year have 7 or 8 rookies in the lineup on a nightly basis. For Babcock, a large part of it is finding players he can trust. Babcock is on record saying he doesn’t like starting rookies in the middle but with Matthews, he didn’t have much of a choice, so he’s paired him with (in his eyes) his most trustworthy player, Zach Hyman. For all his faults on the offensive end, Hyman is a reliable defensive presence and solid forechecker. The intended effect is probably to take some of the defensive pressure off of Matthews. Ditto with Brown, who replaced Nylander on that line after Matthews went into a scoring slump. In other words… Babcock is sheltering Matthews, and the offensive zone start % for that line supports that theory. Whether that’s justified, for a kid as talented at both ends of the ice as Matthews, is another matter entirely.

Incidently, Marner’s got the opposite problem: He has more offensive weapons to work with the offensive zone but needs to carry more of the defensive burden because of Bozak and JVR’s deficiencies in that regard. But he’s also a winger, not a centre, and he’s a year older than Matthews which may be why Babcock is more willing to shelter him less.

More than anybody, Nylander is the one getting the short stick (well, aside from poor Frankie Corrado, but that’s another story :laugh:). Babcock clearly doesn’t trust him defensively and may have felt his deficiencies were dragging down Matthews. So he was moved off that line in favour of Brown, a player Babcock did trust. First on the road, when lines couldn’t be matched, and now permanently. Problem is, aside from playing with Matthews, where else is he going to play? With JVR/Bozak seems like a bad idea as does playing him on a shutdown line alongside Kadri. Instead he ends up on the 4th line with Smith and Martin.

The right solution is probably to put Nylander back with Matthews and have Brown on the opposite wing, but for that to happen, Babs needs to be willing to unwrap some of the bubble wrap around Matthews.

Good post. If we continue on this downward trend then the pressure will be on Babcock to rearrange the lines.
 
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