Awesome tidbit of Babcock/Glendening news

[Redder Winger]

Credit goes to Neil Smith and Rockstrom for Lidstrom.
And Fedorov? Well, you need to thank Nick Polano and Jimmy Lites and co for that one.
And Yzerman was a rookie leading the Red Wings in scoring when Ken Holland last suited up as an NHL goalie, so you can't give him credit there.

And since he was GM, you have to give credit to Jimmy D, who went out on a high note after 5-6 years of ugly drafting.


By the way, all credit to Kenny for Datsyuk and Zetterberg and Kronwall.
But if you want to look at his early draft record, he had some hits (Osgood).

Fedyk at 8 overall. Kory Kocur at 17
But he had some awful misses

 

[pz29]

I think anyone who says that "no one cares about the Lighting or about hockey in general in Florida" needs to come and visit. There is more of a hockey community and more interest in the game than in some "northern" states I have lived in. This includes both people who watch and follow the game and those who play it.

 

[Redder Winger]

1985-1987 - Amateur Scout - Western Canada
1987-1994 - Director of Amateur Scouting
1994-1997 - Assistant General Manager
1997 -Present - Ex. VP of Hockey Operations and General Manager

Google Neil Smith Lidstrom.

You'll find hundreds of links that cite Smith as chief scout.

 

[kliq]

Sowhen did Holland actually take over as director of amateur scouting?

 

[Claypool]

kenny became chief amateur scout in 1990. eliteprospects is wrong. kenny's own words, neil smith was the chief amateur scout until 1990 when he left for NYR GM job.



A testament to Red Wings' 1989 draft: Nicklas Lidstrom poised for Hall of Fame, maybe Sergei Fedorov, too

From his bio:

"He started with the Wings organization as a western Canada scout, followed by seven years as amateur scouting director and three years as assistant general manager."

Ken Holland

 

[Redder Winger]

Sowhen did Holland actually take over as director of amateur scouting?

Neil Smith started in NY in mid July - a month after the draft.
So I'm assuming he was Red Wings chief scout until then.

 

[Redder Winger]

From his bio:

"He started with the Wings organization as a western Canada scout, followed by seven years as amateur scouting director and three years as assistant general manager."

Ken Holland

And?

 

[ShelbyZ]

It would be a lot harder on the Wings to. Not taking anything away from him, but lets not forget, when Yzerman came to TB he had 2 building blocks in Stamkos and Hedman. Having an elite 1C and 1D is absolutely huge. He would have to still find that if he came here.

With that being said, if Yzerman came home, it would be because of the business side of things, it would be personal.

Tampa also had a still elite Martin St. Louis in the fold as well as a regressing but still nearly PPG Lecavalier.

IMO, Yzerman as a GM is a bit overrated because his arrival in Tampa was right alongside the team finally having stable ownership. It's highly plausible that the Lightning underachieved for the three seasons prior to Yzerman and Vinik showing up. They had distractions for around a year while PS&E tried to unload the team, then came the two year Koules/Barrie clown show. Those morons ended up feuding with each other, caused Feaster to voluntarily resign and then they thought guys like Barry Melrose and Brian Lawton were competent for coaching and management positions...

I'm not sure what you mean about the whole business and personal thing (did you maybe forget a " 'nt " after a "would"?). Yzerman has been in Tampa for almost 8 years now. For all we know maybe he wants to keep his playing and managerial legacy's separate and thinks of Tampa as a long term home now. I mean, he doesn't have to deal with winter anymore, has a favorable tax situation for both his own as well as the contracts he can offer players, and maybe he knows deep down that if the teams success goes south he probably faces much softer criticism there than the daily lynch mob his old boss Kenny deals with in Detroit.

Of course... money talks.

I would bet that the Illitch clan could care less what Yzerman would do differently in regards to building the team, at least not right away. Putting Yzerman in the GM spot in Detroit would likely bring about the following:

-A tripped reset button and slate cleaning that could potentially increase fan interest/attendance, or at least kick a deep decline in both further down the road if the team continues to be bad/mediocre
-A "honeymoon period" that would temporarily alleviate the organization from any blame for a lackluster on-ice product
-A first "Honeymoon period" for Yzerman where as long as ANY remnant from a Ken Holland signing or trade counts against the 50 contract limit and/or the salary cap, the narrative for any failure of the team to improve will be "But he's still cleaning up Hollands mess!" or "We could've signed [insert big name UFA that went elsewhere] if Holland hadn't signed Justin Abdelkader to that 7 year contract!"
-Another reset button pushing and second "honeymoon period" for Yzerman once the shackles from the previous administration are completely removed. If needed, the rebuild CAN'T truly begin until all Holland demons are exorcised.

I'd rather leave Yzerman's legacy in Detroit in tact and go with someone completely free of any ties to the organization and its past.

 

[Nut Upstrom]

Holland had nothing to do with Yzerman, Lidstrom and Fedorov.
He might have played some kind of role in Shanahan, but not much.

That's quite a statement of fact considering you're commenting from a position of complete ignorance like the rest of us. How would any of us know how much or how little Ken Holland had to do with those players, save for Yzerman, who was drafted in 83. Unless you have/had some special insight into the inner workings of this team then give over with the 'it's right 100% because I think so,' mentality - it's childish.

If you think or assume he had nothing to do with bringing those players into the fold then say so and a discussion can be had, but why would anyone who wants a shred of credibility or a reasonable discussion be spouting his opinion as if it is 100% substantiated fact?

Edit: And why the hell are we even having this discussion in a Babcock/Glendening thread?

 

[Henkka]

Google Neil Smith Lidstrom.

You'll find hundreds of links that cite Smith as chief scout.

Chief scout doesn't necessarily mean Scouting Director. They could have had different positions. Rockström did find the guy but they analyzed the players as a group.

I remember from Devellano book, he saw Smith&Holland as equal guys, as great future hockey executives, but preferred Holland as his succcessor. Smith knew this and jumped to Rangers as a new opportunity.

Later on, I think we kept the right guy when seeing how Smith operated the Rangers. Got one Cup but burned the organization down in one decade by losing majority of his trades. I take 4 Cups before 1 Cup any day.

 

[Redder Winger]

That's quite a statement of fact considering you're commenting from a position of complete ignorance like the rest of us. How would any of us know how much or how little Ken Holland had to do with those players, save for Yzerman, who was drafted in 83. Unless you have/had some special insight into the inner workings of this team then give over with the 'it's right 100% because I think so,' mentality - it's childish.

If you think or assume he had nothing to do with bringing those players into the fold then say so and a discussion can be had, but why would anyone who wants a shred of credibility or a reasonable discussion be spouting his opinion as if it is 100% substantiated fact?

Edit: And why the hell are we even having this discussion in a Babcock/Glendening thread?

Why would the western Canada scout have anything to do with the drafting of a Swede? Or a Russian?
Come on.
Ultimately it's the GM's job. Or the assistant GM. Or the Chief Scout.
But you want to try and say that the western Canada scout might have been responsible in any meaningful way?
That does't fly.

Here's how Holland described it;
"Christer Rockstrom (European scout) and Neil Smith (chief scout) told us they found a player off the beaten path," Holland said. "They were tucking him away and he was going to be our third pick."

So Holland was told. He wasn't informing. He wasn't telling. He was told.

It reflect well of you when you resort to insults like "childish."
Yet you constantly resort to insults when replying to me.

If you'd like to tell me why I'm wrong go for it. But try not to be insulting.

 

[Henkka]

This is the best series ever put on Youtube. It tells how the scouting staff prepares for the draft. They discuss as a group. They could give the credit for one guy, the discussions are made in group.

It also presented more of Tyler Wright as a person for me, before he was even hired to Detroit.

 

[Henkka]

Why would the western Canada scout have anything to do with the drafting of a Swede? Or a Russian?
Come on.
Ultimately it's the GM's job. Or the assistant GM. Or the Chief Scout.
But you want to try and say that the western Canada scout might have been responsible in any meaningful way?
That does't fly.

You keep saying that Holland was a Western Scout, when other articles say that he was a Director of Amateur Scouting. That doesn't prevent Neil Smith being the chief scout. It's just titles.

There was Scouting Director at Columbus 2013 staff and Co-director of Amateur scouting. Nothing says that Holland was a Western Scout at 1989 on that time. I've seen only, that he was Western Scout for 1984-86, then a Scouting director from 1987 on. There could have been those multiple titles.

Main thing is that you work as a group and good manager/director will listen his employees.

After his playing career was over, Holland took a job with the Red Wings as a scout in Western Canada. He subsequently served seven years as Director of Amateur Scouting and three as Assistant General Manager. On July 18, 1997, he was promoted to his current position of General Manager, Executive Vice President and Alternate Governor of the Detroit Red Wings.

The timeline goes like this:

Ken Holland
1983-84 playing career will end.

1984-85 Red Wings Western Scout
1985-86 Red Wings Western Scout

1987-88 Director of Amateur Scouting (this does not prevent Neil Smith being a Chief scout)
1988-89 Director of Amateur Scouting (this does not prevent Neil Smith being a Chief scout, Smith joins NYR after the season)
1989-90 Director of Amateur Scouting
1990-91 Director of Amateur Scouting
1991-92 Director of Amateur Scouting
1992-93 Director of Amateur Scouting
1993-94 Director of Amateur Scouting

1994-95 Assistant GM
1995-96 Assistant GM
1996-97 Assistant GM

1997-98 GM

***

Neil smith

Devellano was contacted by the new Red Wings owner Mike Ilitch to become GM in the summer of 1982, Smith moved with him to the Detroit Red Wings, where he won two Calder Cup championships as the General Manager of the team's minor league affiliate, the Adirondack Red Wings in 1985–1986 and 1988–1989.

Smith was hired by the Rangers in 1989 to be their General Manager...

Two good executives having a double role. Smith was Adirondack GM, so I could think Holland already had bigger role as a Scouting Director.

 

[BinCookin]

Henkka those vids are very cool.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Ken Holland didn't keep getting promoted because he had nothing to do with those things.

Just like the Assistant GM has always been described as a triumvirate where Bowman lost most of his power in the Yzerman trade debacle. Nevertheless he had powers on the level of Devellano and Bowman when it was laid out starting in 94.Which by the way is interesting Ilitch might have killed the deal but we know the one guy in power at the organization who didn't favor Primeau at that point over Yzerman which is fairly critical to his legacy, Devellano has even made that all but clear in his own books.

Look at titles all you want. Ken Holland was consistently promoted up the chain of command and had considerable organizational power. You know likely because he was making a **** load of good decisions on his way to becoming a HHOF builder. My word...

It might not have worked out down the stretch like we all hoped. But those attempting to discredit one of the greatest hockey minds of our lifetimes are going to look very foolish. They can continue to do it. But no he isn't in risk of losing the HHOF and no he isn't at risk of falling out of the Top 10 all-time GMs. His place in the history of the game and the history of the Detroit Red Wings is one of absolute glory and astounding accomplishment for a franchise he spent over three decades helping.

 

[BinCookin]

Did anyone else notice in those vids from Henkka, that buffalo offered Jarmo the 18th pick. For their 14th?

Unless I mis-heard that part, that would be Detroit's pick.

 

[Redder Winger]

You keep saying that Holland was a Western Scout, when other articles say that he was a Director of Amateur Scouting. That doesn't prevent Neil Smith being the chief scout. It's just titles.

There was Scouting Director at Columbus 2013 staff and Co-director of Amateur scouting. Nothing says that Holland was a Western Scout at 1989 on that time. I've seen only, that he was Western Scout for 1984-86, then a Scouting director from 1987 on. There could have been those multiple titles.

Main thing is that you work as a group and good manager/director will listen his employees.



The timeline goes like this:

Ken Holland
1983-84 playing career will end.

1984-85 Red Wings Western Scout
1985-86 Red Wings Western Scout

1987-88 Director of Amateur Scouting (this does not prevent Neil Smith being a Chief scout)
1988-89 Director of Amateur Scouting (this does not prevent Neil Smith being a Chief scout, Smith joins NYR after the season)
1989-90 Director of Amateur Scouting
1990-91 Director of Amateur Scouting
1991-92 Director of Amateur Scouting
1992-93 Director of Amateur Scouting
1993-94 Director of Amateur Scouting

1994-95 Assistant GM
1995-96 Assistant GM
1996-97 Assistant GM

1997-98 GM

***

Neil smith



Two good executives having a double role. Smith was Adirondack GM, so I could think Holland already had bigger role as a Scouting Director.

Hey Henka, sorry to burst your bubble.
Here's Neil Smith's linked in page.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/nycneil
" In 1989, as head of Amateur Scouting with the Detroit Red Wings, Neil drafted what would turn out to be some of the Red Wings’ greatest players: Mike Sillinger, Bob Boughner, Nicklas Lidstrom, Sergei Fedorov, Dallas Drake & Vladimir Konstantinov. In a 2009 Sports Illustrated article, the Red Wings’ 1989 draft is considered one of the most impactful drafts in sports history and was the foundation for Detroit’s continued success. "

Is that enough for you?

 

[Redder Winger]

Ken Holland didn't keep getting promoted because he had nothing to do with those things.

Just like the Assistant GM has always been described as a triumvirate where Bowman lost most of his power in the Yzerman trade debacle. Nevertheless he had powers on the level of Devellano and Bowman when it was laid out starting in 94.Which by the way is interesting Ilitch might have killed the deal but we know the one guy in power at the organization who didn't favor Primeau at that point over Yzerman which is fairly critical to his legacy, Devellano has even made that all but clear in his own books.

Look at titles all you want. Ken Holland was consistently promoted up the chain of command and had considerable organizational power. You know likely because he was making a **** load of good decisions on his way to becoming a HHOF builder. My word...

It might not have worked out down the stretch like we all hoped. But those attempting to discredit one of the greatest hockey minds of our lifetimes are going to look very foolish. They can continue to do it. But no he isn't in risk of losing the HHOF and no he isn't at risk of falling out of the Top 10 all-time GMs. His place in the history of the game and the history of the Detroit Red Wings is one of absolute glory and astounding accomplishment for a franchise he spent over three decades helping.

It's so weird that you guys have to give Holland credit for shit he didn't do.

He did enough.
He drafted Datsyuk. He drafted Zetterberg. Filppula. Hudler. Kronwall. Etc. etc. etc.
As director of scouting he drafted Kozlov and many more who fit into the long range plans.

Here's another source.
Red Wings star Lidstrom still going strong at 40
"Detroit general manager Ken Holland, who was a western amateur scout with the franchise in 1989 when it drafted Lidstrom in the third round, marvels at his relentless attention to detail on a daily basis."

KEN HOLLAND - WHO WAS WESTERN AMATEUR SCOUT IN 1989 WHEN IT DRAFTED LIDSTROM

So you've got Neil Smith saying he was Amateur Scout in 89 at the draft on his linked in page.
He must be lying to get a better job.
He must not know that EliteProspects and Henka have the real truth.

And seriously, how do you start telling people they look foolish for "discrediting Holland."

All I said is that like Yzerman, he came to a franchise already largely in tact.

Actually, he walked into a better job.
There was no salary cap. The team already had a cup. The team was the defending cup champ.

Give him credit for every cup he won.
Give him credit for helping Bowman as assistant GM. Give him credit for the picks he helped make as director of amateur scouting, if you wish.

But that's not Yzerman. That's not Fedorov. That's not Lidstrom. Not Konstantinov either.

You guys are the ones disrespecting Holland when you make shit up and give him credit for the shit he didn't do. As if what he did wasn't somehow enough.

 

[Redder Winger]

Tampa also had a still elite Martin St. Louis in the fold as well as a regressing but still nearly PPG Lecavalier.

IMO, Yzerman as a GM is a bit overrated because his arrival in Tampa was right alongside the team finally having stable ownership. It's highly plausible that the Lightning underachieved for the three seasons prior to Yzerman and Vinik showing up. They had distractions for around a year while PS&E tried to unload the team, then came the two year Koules/Barrie clown show. Those morons ended up feuding with each other, caused Feaster to voluntarily resign and then they thought guys like Barry Melrose and Brian Lawton were competent for coaching and management positions...

I'm not sure what you mean about the whole business and personal thing (did you maybe forget a " 'nt " after a "would"?). Yzerman has been in Tampa for almost 8 years now. For all we know maybe he wants to keep his playing and managerial legacy's separate and thinks of Tampa as a long term home now. I mean, he doesn't have to deal with winter anymore, has a favorable tax situation for both his own as well as the contracts he can offer players, and maybe he knows deep down that if the teams success goes south he probably faces much softer criticism there than the daily lynch mob his old boss Kenny deals with in Detroit.

Of course... money talks.

I would bet that the Illitch clan could care less what Yzerman would do differently in regards to building the team, at least not right away. Putting Yzerman in the GM spot in Detroit would likely bring about the following:

-A tripped reset button and slate cleaning that could potentially increase fan interest/attendance, or at least kick a deep decline in both further down the road if the team continues to be bad/mediocre
-A "honeymoon period" that would temporarily alleviate the organization from any blame for a lackluster on-ice product
-A first "Honeymoon period" for Yzerman where as long as ANY remnant from a Ken Holland signing or trade counts against the 50 contract limit and/or the salary cap, the narrative for any failure of the team to improve will be "But he's still cleaning up Hollands mess!" or "We could've signed [insert big name UFA that went elsewhere] if Holland hadn't signed Justin Abdelkader to that 7 year contract!"
-Another reset button pushing and second "honeymoon period" for Yzerman once the shackles from the previous administration are completely removed. If needed, the rebuild CAN'T truly begin until all Holland demons are exorcised.

I'd rather leave Yzerman's legacy in Detroit in tact and go with someone completely free of any ties to the organization and its past.

Yzerman's legacy is in tact in Detroit.
Unless he came back and was outed as a serial killer, his legacy is in tact.

The best thing about an Yzerman GM is:
1) Fresh eyes.
2) Bold moves.

 

[Claypool]

You guys are the ones disrespecting Holland when you make **** up and give him credit for the **** he didn't do. As if what he did wasn't somehow enough.

Who's making shit up? We're going off what is directly written on DRW.com.

 

[Redder Winger]

Who's making **** up? We're going off what is directly written on DRW.com.

Where's the link.
So you think Neil Smith is lying when he says on his Linked in Page he was "director of amateur scouting in 1989."
You think Sports Illustrated is lying when they say Ken Holland was western amateur scout in 1989 at the time of the draft?

You don't think people might have misread the fact that Smith left in July of 89, so Holland was promoted at that point?
And that maybe people have fudged up the timeline, seeing Holland as director of Amateur scouting in 89 and assuming that he must have done the draft?

 

[Redder Winger]

Oh, and this.


SIMMONS: Olympics men’s hockey in 2022 will be a challenge for Team Canada

Back to the original point...
Plekanec is playing 11 minutes and change each night in Toronto.
Babcock lost the battle with management, like he did with Ken Holland from time to time.
And when Babcock loses his battles, he makes sure management knows how stupid they are. He often benches the guys he has to play instead of the guy he wanted. Even if - or especially if - it's a rookie.

Going to be interesting to see how that Babcock bullshit plays with Lou Lamoriello.

Also -- while everyone's talking about Holland to Seattle... I know Toronto is supposedly going with the advanced stats guy...
Amidst latest Lamoriello speculation, Leafs look to respond after outdoor failure

 

[kliq]

You keep saying that Holland was a Western Scout, when other articles say that he was a Director of Amateur Scouting. That doesn't prevent Neil Smith being the chief scout. It's just titles.

There was Scouting Director at Columbus 2013 staff and Co-director of Amateur scouting. Nothing says that Holland was a Western Scout at 1989 on that time. I've seen only, that he was Western Scout for 1984-86, then a Scouting director from 1987 on. There could have been those multiple titles.

Main thing is that you work as a group and good manager/director will listen his employees.



The timeline goes like this:

Ken Holland
1983-84 playing career will end.

1984-85 Red Wings Western Scout
1985-86 Red Wings Western Scout

1987-88 Director of Amateur Scouting (this does not prevent Neil Smith being a Chief scout)
1988-89 Director of Amateur Scouting (this does not prevent Neil Smith being a Chief scout, Smith joins NYR after the season)
1989-90 Director of Amateur Scouting
1990-91 Director of Amateur Scouting
1991-92 Director of Amateur Scouting
1992-93 Director of Amateur Scouting
1993-94 Director of Amateur Scouting

1994-95 Assistant GM
1995-96 Assistant GM
1996-97 Assistant GM

1997-98 GM

***

Neil smith



Two good executives having a double role. Smith was Adirondack GM, so I could think Holland already had bigger role as a Scouting Director.

I also read that he was the goaltending coach in 1997. Not sure if this means for 1 game, or the entire season, but its listed in his bio.

 

[BinCookin]

wtf are you guys arguing about...

who cares who Holland DIRECtly drafted or didnt draft...
He has worked for the red wings basically forever.
We won 4 cups while i was a fan.

He WAS very successful forever.
the last few years, we have finally started getting bad.
It does not sully the 20+ years of elite work IMO.

I can agree Holland has screwed things up as of late. But come on, drafting is a done as a team, by thee team. If all Kenny's scouts wanted Vilardi, and Kenny himself said "nope, im going big boy rasmussen".... ya that would be a problem.. But that would likely be followed by lots of people quitting or being fired. I am not seeing that happen in Detroit.

 

[jkutswings]

I wonder if some fans think that scouting works as follows:

Each scout works a single market. No scouts ever exchange feedback with one another, or their superiors. Once they have finished evaluating a given player, they type up a report, anonymously place the report in a mail slot, having no idea who might read it, and walk away, never having further discussion about the matter, and are just as surprised as the fans are about who gets selected on draft day.

I mean c'mon. No matter what title is listed on a guy's office door or name plate, if a scouting department is ever going to be even remotely decent, they will have LOTS of people discussing and debating LOTS of players.

Yes, whomever is in charge will have the final say, but acting like Holland went from being completely in the dark about players from all areas in the world outside of Western Canada, to then being completely in the loop and in charge of it all, is ridiculous.

He played an important role in a gigantic era of success. I still want him gone this summer, because I don't think he's the right guy going forward, but I'm not trying to rewrite history to marginalize anything good he was in the mix for in the past.