Awards ballots to be made public

[vadim sharifijanov]

i think there was a discussion thread for awards voting that got bumped every year, but i can't find it. so if a mod wants to add this to that, then great.

but this is welcome news--

The Professional Hockey Writers Association announced on Friday it will reveal each voter’s individual NHL Awards ballot starting in June.

Members of the PHWA decide the Hart, Norris, Calder, Selke, Lady Byng, Masterton and Conn Smythe trophies each spring, as well as NHL All-Star and All-Rookie teams.

The organization’s membership voted overwhelmingly (81 per cent) for transparency in award balloting. Previously, members were permitted to voluntarily disclose their ballot, but were under no mandate to do so. This year, ballots will be published on the PHWA website.

Approximately half of the PHWA’s 300 members are invited to vote on major NHL Awards, along with a select group of national broadcasters. Every voter, including broadcasters, will be subject to the transparency mandate.

The decision to disclose ballots for the first time in the 50-year history of the organization brings the PHWA into lockstep with the Baseball Writers Association of America and the Professional Basketball Writers Association.

Hockey Writers vote to reveal NHL Awards ballots - Article - TSN

Click to read more...

 

[Epsilon]

It's interesting to speculate about what effect (if any) this will have on the voting process and results.

1. One would hope it will generally cause voters to take their ballots more seriously across the board.

2. With regards to the effect it will have on homer votes, I would offer up the following speculation, which is not based on anything other than gut feeling (i.e. I haven't read any interviews with voters talking about it or anything like that):

-It will decrease the occurrence of "pure homer" votes, especially for major awards, where a writer votes for a local player who almost certainly doesn't warrant serious consideration.

-In marginal cases (i.e. where the player in question is a serious candidate, but hardly a slam dunk), it could encourage writers to vote for the local candidate in order to lessen potential blowback from the fanbase.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Here's your next project NHL 100...let's go back and recoup as many ballots as you can...what a find that would be, eh boys?

 

[Epsilon]

Here's your next project NHL 100...let's go back and recoup as many ballots as you can...what a find that would be, eh boys?

I'd presume Ernst & Young already has a lot of the data, although who knows how long they store it for.

 

[Plural]

I like it. Not sure if it will force the homer votes out but I personally find it interesting to get in to the mindset of voters.

 

[Big Phil]

I'd rather they employ Baseball's HOF transparency when it comes to voting where we can actually see how it happens.

Either way, yeah this might make things honest. I guess things like this will explain Ovechkin being a 1st team all-star at both wings in the same year.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

hard to say how this will play out.

obviously the hope is that it'll force voters to take the balloting more seriously. no more hart votes for adam graves, or norris votes for marek malik, or... selke votes for henrik sedin.

but most likely, all those voters who don't actually follow hockey will just do a few extra google searches and the voting will become even more of an echo chamber of consensus opinion, for better or worse.

if nothing else, it might be useful to add nuance to the way we use voting data in our discussions here.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'm more interested in just taking the people's opinions whom I actually respect and just tallying them. I don't need to know what some Flyers C-list beat writer thinks...I'm listening to Ray Ferraro...

 

[GuineaPig]

The other possibility is that beat writers become more biased with transparency, because they might feel more pressured to vote for their team's players. You see it in awards voting in some other sports

 

[Michael Farkas]

I am ok with that, to a degree...per my message above. I know these clown buckets will leave a mark on history if too much concentrated stupid congregates in one direction, but as long as I can take the, I presume, 8ish people whose opinions I actually respect out of the deal, I'll take the consequences, if any...

 

[The Panther]

but most likely, all those voters who don't actually follow hockey will just do a few extra google searches and the voting will become even more of an echo chamber of consensus opinion, for better or worse.

This is what I think, too. It's probably going to 'mainstream' votes more than it's going to reveal idiosyncrasies.

Every year, there's that writer in (place) who has been thinking, all season, "so-and-so on our team really should get at least my third-place votes for the League MVP". Previously, he would do so. But now, he's going to second-guess himself: "If I vote for him, and I'm the only one, I'm going to look like an idiot." So, he's just going to vote for the Google-consensus.

 

[tony d]

Good to see, will be good to see who voted for who.

 

[bobholly39]

The other possibility is that beat writers become more biased with transparency, because they might feel more pressured to vote for their team's players. You see it in awards voting in some other sports

Yeah I could see that.

Look at this year. Maybe this change will eliminate the 1-2 Toronto writer voting for Matthews #1 in the Hart race since he belongs nowhere near that and would get ridiculed for his vote.

Flip side is - can you imagine a Colorado writer NOT voting for MacKinnon? He'd lose all support from local fans. Especially if MacKinnon ends up losing by 1 vote.

 

[Epsilon]

Yeah I could see that.

Look at this year. Maybe this change will eliminate the 1-2 Toronto writer voting for Matthews #1 in the Hart race since he belongs nowhere near that and would get ridiculed for his vote.

Flip side is - can you imagine a Colorado writer NOT voting for MacKinnon? He'd lose all support from local fans. Especially if MacKinnon ends up losing by 1 vote.

On the flip side of that, more than a few sports journalists get off on creating a "heel" persona and being hated by the local market.

 

[bobholly39]

On the flip side of that, more than a few sports journalists get off on creating a "heel" persona and being hated by the local market.

Yep, that's true too.

Still think overall it's a good thing for the sport - but it'll definitely create at least a few new dynamics that should be entertaining to follow.

 

[Epsilon]

Yep, that's true too.

Still think overall it's a good thing for the sport - but it'll definitely create at least a few new dynamics that should be entertaining to follow.

It's a bit different than awards voting, but baseball HOF ballots have shown that some sportswriters have no qualms about attaching their names to absolutely embarrassing votes.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

so here they are: NHL awards ballots from PHWA members

"Two voters did not submit a ballot: Ron MacLean (HNIC) and Mike Sawatzky.(Winnipeg Free Press).

One voter submitted a ballot after the deadline: Dave Feschuk (Toronto Star).

One voter submitted an ineligible Trophy vote, nullifying his trophy voting: Jeff Hamilton (Winnipeg Free Press).

Twelve voters submitted ineligible All-Star team votes, nullifying their All-Star selections: Kristen Anderson (Calgary Herald), Steve Dryden (TSN), Jesse Granger (Las Vegas Sun), Jeff Hamilton (Winnipeg Free Press), Mike Heika (Dallas Morning News), Pat Hickey (Montreal Gazette), Renaud Lavoie (TVA), Alison Lukan (The Athletic), Joe McDonald (The Athletic), Kevin McGran (Toronto Star), Charlie O’Connor (The Athletic), Adam Vingan (The Tennessean).

Four voters submitted ineligible All-Rookie team votes, nullifying their All-Rookie selections: John Dietz (Arlington Daily Herald), Alison Lukan (The Athletic), Mark Whicker (Orange County Register), Josh Yohe (The Athletic)."

(doesn't look good for the "premium content" of the athletic, does it?)

i wonder what constitutes an ineligible all-star team vote, if david shoalts voted for taylor hall at center and LW, and somebody from newsday named steve zipay voted for kopitar at LW, then how abominable were the ones they rejected?



to be fair to shoalts, his forward ballots were c: hall mackinon malkin, lw: hall giroux ov, rw: kuch kessel wheeler, so it's possible that's an honest mistake and he was thinking mcdavid instead of hall instead of flat out not knowing what position taylor hall plays.

also, according to this guy (who apparently doesn't know that brock boeser exists), the voters were given memos about claude giroux being listed as LW this year. i'm actually kind of unclear about that, because i know he played a lot with couturier but giroux also took the most faceoffs of anyone on the flyers, including couts.

 

[solidmotion]

(doesn't look good for the "premium content" of the athletic, does it?)

i don't really know anything about the athletic, only heard about it for the first time the other day, but look at the actual charts showing the votes: 26 out of 164 eligible hart ballots are from its writers. that seems kind of crazy... (tsn + sportsnet have 21. hockey news has 5.)

so uh what's the deal with the athletic?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Giroux played LW all season.

 

[Ishdul]

i don't really know anything about the athletic, only heard about it for the first time the other day, but look at the actual charts showing the votes: 26 out of 164 eligible hart ballots are from its writers. that seems kind of crazy... (tsn + sportsnet have 21. hockey news has 5.)

so uh what's the deal with the athletic?

They have most of the local beat writers after a lot of newspapers got rid of them. A lot of them are people that were voters the previous years for different publications.

 

[Johnny Engine]

After a quick scan, I don't see anything absolutely pants-on-head, like a Norris vote for Brad Lukowich or a Selke vote for Jaromir Jagr (both happened). But we'll have to give it a couple of years before we can conclusively say those are gone.

I'm more interested in just taking the people's opinions whom I actually respect and just tallying them. I don't need to know what some Flyers C-list beat writer thinks...I'm listening to Ray Ferraro...

From a name-by-name scan, a lot of them look kind of the same. But yeah, I'd like to tally up lists of guys I respect, guys I hate, and guys I've never heard of, and compare them.
Also, by background, to see if there's any difference. For example, I can't think of any reason why Elliotte Friedman should be seen as any kind of talent evaluator, but he talks to everyone in the business and is in general a reasonable human being, so his conclusions tend to be not stupid. Would those conclusions end up being different, even in a subtle way, than a guy like Ferraro, who played?

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I still don't understand why obvious mistakes (Shoalts voting Hall at LW and C) don't simply get corrected? Like, can't whoever is tabulating the results fire off a quick email or phone call to Mr. Shoalts and say "hey I think you made a typo..."?

But this is the same league that lazily shrugged their shoulders and said "the results are what they are" when Ovechkin got voted to the all-star team at two positions, so I guess...the results are what they are.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I still don't understand why obvious mistakes (Shoalts voting Hall at LW and C) don't simply get corrected? Like, can't whoever is tabulating the results fire off a quick email or phone call to Mr. Shoalts and say "hey I think you made a typo..."?

But this is the same league that lazily shrugged their shoulders and said "the results are what they are" when Ovechkin got voted to the all-star team at two positions, so I guess...the results are what they are.

At some point writers or voters have to step up and assume their responsibility. The writer does not live in a bubble and it is up to them to check or have their ballot checked an extra time.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

At some point writers or voters have to step up and assume their responsibility. The writer does not live in a bubble and it is up to them to check or have their ballot checked an extra time.

I would agree with that, but I would also consider whoever is tabulating the results on behalf of the NHL to be "part of the team". These errors are quickly correctable with minimal effort, we're not talking about spoiled ballots cast in an 18th century election.

 

[Voight]

i don't really know anything about the athletic, only heard about it for the first time the other day, but look at the actual charts showing the votes: 26 out of 164 eligible hart ballots are from its writers. that seems kind of crazy... (tsn + sportsnet have 21. hockey news has 5.)

so uh what's the deal with the athletic?

Long story short, it was started a few years ago, its a paid subscription website and last year they went on a hiring frenzy when ESPN + local outlets let go hundreds of journalists. Its fairly cheap but for me I don't really care to pay for it as there is a ton of websites that I can go to for free instead.

Basically guys like LeBrun already had their PWHA credentials so it just transferred from ESPN to The Athletic when they hired him. They trying to become the go to website for sports journalism.

At some point writers or voters have to step up and assume their responsibility. The writer does not live in a bubble and it is up to them to check or have their ballot checked an extra time.

Agreed - these are paid professionals, majority of whom went to university - I think they can take 10 minutes to go over their ballot before sending it in.

Side note - cant wait to see what that moron Dave Molinaris ballot looked like.