Rumor: Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 17-18 Part VIII

[Foppberg]

Talk about an entrance.

 

[Postanin CB Ting]

Man if OEL would re sign I would do those trades.

OEL EJ
Girard Troubs
Z Meloche

Sexy.. like even better than the glory days. Gotta wonder how much $ it'd take to lock that d up.

 

[GeniusSuperior]

I like the idea of trading for OEL (I imagine we can likely resign him, just have to show him that we want him) but not at the expense of Makar. But I’m not a scout by any means and haven’t watched OEL so I have no idea how to properly value him.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

The value of draft picks drop quickly after the second round. A fourth rounder isn't really worth much more than a fifth/sixth round pick.

I want a high third round pick or better to trade Comeau, if he's at 30+ point pace at trade deadline.

And if nobody is willing to give that? What's the point in not trading him? Is there any chace he returns?

This is where I disagree with this board. I would say Makar is untouchable for everything but a undisputed number 1D which is what OEL is. Makar was a high risk fourth overall in a very weak draft year, after watching him play I don’t see a franchise defenseman. I’d be happy to be wrong about that but it’s just how I see it.

To win a cup a number 1D is the most important piece, look at the last 20 years of Stanley cup finalists, Pittsburgh (Crosby and Malkin which is an obvious outlier and shouldn’t be used as a benchmark) and Carolina (Ward beastmode) are the only teams to win it without a great 1D. Looking at the finialists you’ll see Keith, Doughty, Pronger, Chara, Subban/Josi, Lidstrom, McDonough, Letang, Niedermeyer, Vlassic/Burns, etc. Can Makar really reach this level? He’s our best bet to be the guy but I don’t see a franchise guy in him, he could be but it’s very far from likely. Then look at the cup finalists D age, It takes a long time to become a cup caliber D, there is only a few exceptions like Doughty that can be effective in their early twenties. Hell Keith won his first cup at a later age than OEL is right now, and is still going as a 1D at 34 years’ old. Even if Makar his ceiling, we’d have to wait 6 years for him to be good enough defensively to win a cup, that’s just too long in my opinion. OEL is my favourite D in the league so I’m quite biased, but I don’t think we’ve seen his peak yet, remember Lidstrom didn’t win his first Norris until he was 4 years older than OEL currently is. This guy has a lot left in the tank and I would easily trade Makar for him.

This isn’t even considering a defence built around Barrie, Girard, and Makar just won’t work. I can’t recall a defence that small and poor defensively ever winning a cup. Great defenseman but they just don’t go well together.

The last time a number 1 LHD (the bane of Colorado’s existence lately) was available was probably Suter, these guys just don’t become available often. If OEL is truly on the table I say go for it.

To put it into perspective many people here wanted Hanifin (a prospect that probably would have gone 1st overall in the 2017 draft and is much safer than Makar) for Duchene (a player that impacts a game much less than OEL). In fact, the frustration was very evident with GM Francis, many posters here criticized his inability to fix the forward corps in Carolina. This is the same situation however I’d argue Colorado’s defence has been a much bigger problem lately than Carolina’s forwards.

OEL might be bigger, but he is a poor defender.

 

[Patagonia]

OEL cap hit is $5.5M until the end of 2018/19 season or essentially 1.5 years. Although, he earns $6.5M and $7.0M on the final years of the deal.

Just to determine a salary starting point, based on his final season would be $7.0M and increase accordingly. Burns/Hedman are likely comparables at $8.0M per season.

AVs can easily absorb the salary, would he worth a new deal when he turns 28? I don't think Sakic would even bother trading a high end prospect and resign likely a 5+ year deal.

 

[Freudian]

OEL is where Duchene is. Been on bad teams most of his career. I would assume he would want to go to a team that can contend for Cups if he had a choice. Avs aren't going to be that team in the coming two seasons.

 

[JoemAvs]

@Eltuna;

Welcome to hfboards . You see we are quite a combatitive bunch. Especially after all that has happened last season. Don't let it discourage you from posting your opinion.

Now let me adress your thoughts:

First of all I would prefer to stay the course and patiently rebuild around our young core of Mac, Rantanen,etc...

That said, speeding it up via making a splash like you suggest might have its merits. Atleast I guess MacKinnon or Landeskog would be all for it. I don't think we could pull off building a contending team that way for the longrun but there is no guarantee we will be able to do that via staying patient and building for the longterm either. Especially if we don't nail our draft picks.

So lets agree to disagree philosophically on the teambuilding aspect in general.

There is one flaw I think you are overlooking in your plan. And it is a gigantic one.

You are not wrong in believing that OEL and Duchene are in a somewhat similar spot and both will probably not hit UFA and re-sign with the team they get traded to. Just one problem.

Duchene would never have re-signed in Arizona. He stated that he was sick of rebuilding and finally wanted to win. That is his whole justification for demanding a trade from the Avs. And it makes sense.

Arizona does not want to trade OEL. The only reason for him potentially being available is that he probably is also sick of losing and does not want to wait for yet another bunch of prospects to arrive and mature.
So that is why he would not re-sign and therefore be available in the first place.

Knowing all that it would be enormously stupid for the Avs to trade for OEL unless they are 100 % sure that he will sign a reasonable contract extension with them. But that can not happen until next July and as I said, it just makes 0 sense from OELs perspective to want to get out of Arizona just to end up with another bottom feeder that is rebuilding and just traded their 2nd best player for picks and prospects...

If I am OEL I would make it crystal clear to everyone that is listening, that I am sick of losing and want to win now. Requesting a trade out of Arizona just to sign an extension with a franchise that is in the same rebuilding scenario would be spitting in the face of every Arizona fan basically.

There is no way that happens IMO...
OEL will go to Dallas, Toronto or a similar situation if he ever gets traded. Not to the only team that arguably was worse than the Yotes over the last couple of years...

 

[Patagonia]

OEL is where Duchene is. Been on bad teams most of his career. I would assume he would want to go to a team that can contend for Cups if he had a choice. Avs aren't going to be that team in the coming two seasons.

Totally agree!

AVs are not committing approx. $8M per for the next 5 years or trading a high end prospect when they're not challenging from the Cup. When OEL contract expires, they'll also need to extend many of the young players.

 

[OwenNolan]

This is where I disagree with this board. I would say Makar is untouchable for everything but a undisputed number 1D which is what OEL is. Makar was a high risk fourth overall in a very weak draft year, after watching him play I don’t see a franchise defenseman. I’d be happy to be wrong about that but it’s just how I see it.

To win a cup a number 1D is the most important piece, look at the last 20 years of Stanley cup finalists, Pittsburgh (Crosby and Malkin which is an obvious outlier and shouldn’t be used as a benchmark) and Carolina (Ward beastmode) are the only teams to win it without a great 1D. Looking at the finialists you’ll see Keith, Doughty, Pronger, Chara, Subban/Josi, Lidstrom, McDonough, Letang, Niedermeyer, Vlassic/Burns, etc. Can Makar really reach this level? He’s our best bet to be the guy but I don’t see a franchise guy in him, he could be but it’s very far from likely. Then look at the cup finalists D age, It takes a long time to become a cup caliber D, there is only a few exceptions like Doughty that can be effective in their early twenties. Hell Keith won his first cup at a later age than OEL is right now, and is still going as a 1D at 34 years’ old. Even if Makar his ceiling, we’d have to wait 6 years for him to be good enough defensively to win a cup, that’s just too long in my opinion. OEL is my favourite D in the league so I’m quite biased, but I don’t think we’ve seen his peak yet, remember Lidstrom didn’t win his first Norris until he was 4 years older than OEL currently is. This guy has a lot left in the tank and I would easily trade Makar for him.

This isn’t even considering a defence built around Barrie, Girard, and Makar just won’t work. I can’t recall a defence that small and poor defensively ever winning a cup. Great defenseman but they just don’t go well together.

The last time a number 1 LHD (the bane of Colorado’s existence lately) was available was probably Suter, these guys just don’t become available often. If OEL is truly on the table I say go for it.

To put it into perspective many people here wanted Hanifin (a prospect that probably would have gone 1st overall in the 2017 draft and is much safer than Makar) for Duchene (a player that impacts a game much less than OEL). In fact, the frustration was very evident with GM Francis, many posters here criticized his inability to fix the forward corps in Carolina. This is the same situation however I’d argue Colorado’s defence has been a much bigger problem lately than Carolina’s forwards.

Wow. I couldn't dis-agree with you more.

I seriously question people's hockey IQ. Watching Makar he is far superior to the players he goes against. He is a man among boys. He makes the game look simple and slows it down. That is what great players do. It's effortless. And the best thing is he is getting better every game. If he isn't a player like Karlsson who takes over games I will be surprised.

And we already have a #1 Dman. His name is Erik Johnson. He is playing close to 30 minutes a game. If he was playing in a bigger market everyone would be talking about him.

A pairing of Johnson / Makar has the potential to be the best pairing in the league.

And simply put to even suggest trading Makar for OEL is absurd.

 

[Eltuna]

@Eltuna;

Welcome to hfboards . You see we are quite a combatitive bunch. Especially after all that has happened last season. Don't let it discourage you from posting your opinion.

Now let me adress your thoughts:

First of all I would prefer to stay the course and patiently rebuild around our young core of Mac, Rantanen,etc...

That said, speeding it up via making a splash like you suggest might have its merits. Atleast I guess MacKinnon or Landeskog would be all for it. I don't think we could pull off building a contending team that way for the longrun but there is no guarantee we will be able to do that via staying patient and building for the longterm either. Especially if we don't nail our draft picks.

So lets agree to disagree philosophically on the teambuilding aspect in general.

There is one flaw I think you are overlooking in your plan. And it is a gigantic one.

You are not wrong in believing that OEL and Duchene are in a somewhat similar spot and both will probably not hit UFA and re-sign with the team they get traded to. Just one problem.

Duchene would never have re-signed in Arizona. He stated that he was sick of rebuilding and finally wanted to win. That is his whole justification for demanding a trade from the Avs. And it makes sense.

Arizona does not want to trade OEL. The only reason for him potentially being available is that he probably is also sick of losing and does not want to wait for yet another bunch of prospects to arrive and mature.
So that is why he would not re-sign and therefore be available in the first place.

Knowing all that it would be enormously stupid for the Avs to trade for OEL unless they are 100 % sure that he will sign a reasonable contract extension with them. But that can not happen until next July and as I said, it just makes 0 sense from OELs perspective to want to get out of Arizona just to end up with another bottom feeder that is rebuilding and just traded their 2nd best player for picks and prospects...

If I am OEL I would make it crystal clear to everyone that is listening, that I am sick of losing and want to win now. Requesting a trade out of Arizona just to sign an extension with a franchise that is in the same rebuilding scenario would be spitting in the face of every Arizona fan basically.

There is no way that happens IMO...
OEL will go to Dallas, Toronto or a similar situation if he ever gets traded. Not to the only team that arguably was worse than the Yotes over the last couple of years...

I don’t think trading Barrie Makar and 2 firsts for OEL and Trouba is speeding up the rebuild I think it’s fixing the rebuild. Trouba’s three years younger than Barrie after all and OEL is hardly old. Speeding up would imply a defence of Girard Barrie and Makar would eventually be a SC contender and I don’t think they would be. I do however think a defence of

OEL EJ
Girard Trouba
Zadorov Nemeth

Is playoff bound. You also have to consider that if you wait for makar to make it as a number 1D you’ve basically wasted a 3D in EJ as he will be a 4-5 D by the time Makar develops. I don’t know what OEL is thinking, but I do think we are much closer than people here do. This team has good forwards that can score, and a good goalie that can steal games, in order to be a playoff team the next two years (should be enough to convince OEL to stay) we just need a good defence. I think my proposed trades makes a top 10 defence league wide.

 

[Eltuna]

Wow. I couldn't dis-agree with you more.

I seriously question people's hockey IQ. Watching Makar he is far superior to the players he goes against. He is a man among boys. He makes the game look simple and slows it down. That is what great players do. It's effortless. And the best thing is he is getting better every game. If he isn't a player like Karlsson who takes over games I will be surprised.

And we already have a #1 Dman. His name is Erik Johnson. He is playing close to 30 minutes a game. If he was playing in a bigger market everyone would be talking about him.

A pairing of Johnson / Makar has the potential to be the best pairing in the league.

And simply put to even suggest trading Makar for OEL is absurd.

Wow. I couldn't dis-agree with you more.

I seriously question people's hockey IQ. Watching Makar he is far superior to the players he goes against. He is a man among boys. He makes the game look simple and slows it down. That is what great players do. It's effortless. And the best thing is he is getting better every game. If he isn't a player like Karlsson who takes over games I will be surprised.

And we already have a #1 Dman. His name is Erik Johnson. He is playing close to 30 minutes a game. If he was playing in a bigger market everyone would be talking about him.

A pairing of Johnson / Makar has the potential to be the best pairing in the league.

And simply put to even suggest trading Makar for OEL is absurd.

Makar is not Karlsson and he very likely never will be. He was a 4th in a poor draft year and is not having the college career so far to suggest he’s much better than everybody thought. Not that he’s been bad, he’s actually been playing well, but Heiskanen has been better this year and mcavoy was better last year. If Makar is Karlsson I don’t know what those guys are. EJ is playing okay as a 1D on a bad defence but on a cup champion EJ would not be the best defenceman. Also, both Makar and EJ are RHD, I know Makar said he likes the left side but in the nhl coaches really don’t like that. It’s also important to remember that by the time Makar becomes a 1D (if he ever does) EJ will not be good enough to be on a top pairing anymore. His game doesn’t look like one to me that will age well.

 

[shadow1]

Makar for OEL is insanity.

I’m not against trading for OEL if the deal revolves around Zadorov+, though.

 

[Balthazar]

OEL is nowhere near as good as people think he is. 3-4 years ago he looked like a superstar in the making but it all went downhill from there. Some are still stuck with the OEL mental image that they have from back then but he's not that player (which is why most Yotes fans will agree to trade him).

 

[S E P H]

Sakic won't trade Comeau unless he plans of getting rid of Bednar. Bednar likes Comeau and that would be a pretty ****ty thing to do to the coach since Comeau won't return anything remotely interesting.

I disagree on both regards...

1) If Avs are out of a playoff position, but have a decent record compared to last year I can see Sakic trading Comeau. Not because of asset management, but because he would want a chance for him to win a Cup. So player respect and all of that.

2) If Comeau continues his pace, he could grab a 3rd rounder which is decent for a player like him.

He's a 6th, my bad

What does this mean? I can go to that 6th round and mention all the players who busted out. Every SINGLE team always finds a hidden gem in the later rounds. I respect your opinion about keeping picks and doing all of that jazz, but you say that optimism is delusion no? If that's the case, isn't it deluded to think Avs are going to draft Bratt's every 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th round?

 

[21]

Totally agree!

AVs are not committing approx. $8M per for the next 5 years or trading a high end prospect when they're not challenging from the Cup. When OEL contract expires, they'll also need to extend many of the young players.

Well, the game can turn rather quickly and the flow, it's not easy to say how players will develop and also lots has to do with self confidence.

If the core with EJ, Landeskog, Rantanen, MacKinnon, Barrie isn't strong enough then we will be in huge problems though. I'm a little bit concerned about the core, Landeskog, Rantanen & MacKinnon need to take the next step and be more consistent. MacKinnon has to play a bit more smart (sometimes looking for a pass) and Landeskog has to be a bit more selfish, become more of a power forward type but I am starting to feel little bit doubt about his physical strength. :-( MacKinnon looking so much stronger out there.

 

[Metallo]

@Eltuna;

Welcome to hfboards . You see we are quite a combatitive bunch. Especially after all that has happened last season. Don't let it discourage you from posting your opinion.

Now let me adress your thoughts:

First of all I would prefer to stay the course and patiently rebuild around our young core of Mac, Rantanen,etc...

That said, speeding it up via making a splash like you suggest might have its merits. Atleast I guess MacKinnon or Landeskog would be all for it. I don't think we could pull off building a contending team that way for the longrun but there is no guarantee we will be able to do that via staying patient and building for the longterm either. Especially if we don't nail our draft picks.

So lets agree to disagree philosophically on the teambuilding aspect in general.

There is one flaw I think you are overlooking in your plan. And it is a gigantic one.

You are not wrong in believing that OEL and Duchene are in a somewhat similar spot and both will probably not hit UFA and re-sign with the team they get traded to. Just one problem.

Duchene would never have re-signed in Arizona. He stated that he was sick of rebuilding and finally wanted to win. That is his whole justification for demanding a trade from the Avs. And it makes sense.

Arizona does not want to trade OEL. The only reason for him potentially being available is that he probably is also sick of losing and does not want to wait for yet another bunch of prospects to arrive and mature.
So that is why he would not re-sign and therefore be available in the first place.

Knowing all that it would be enormously stupid for the Avs to trade for OEL unless they are 100 % sure that he will sign a reasonable contract extension with them. But that can not happen until next July and as I said, it just makes 0 sense from OELs perspective to want to get out of Arizona just to end up with another bottom feeder that is rebuilding and just traded their 2nd best player for picks and prospects...

If I am OEL I would make it crystal clear to everyone that is listening, that I am sick of losing and want to win now. Requesting a trade out of Arizona just to sign an extension with a franchise that is in the same rebuilding scenario would be spitting in the face of every Arizona fan basically.

There is no way that happens IMO...
OEL will go to Dallas, Toronto or a similar situation if he ever gets traded. Not to the only team that arguably was worse than the Yotes over the last couple of years...

All 42 of them?

 

[henchman21]

What does this mean? I can go to that 6th round and mention all the players who busted out. Every SINGLE team always finds a hidden gem in the later rounds. I respect your opinion about keeping picks and doing all of that jazz, but you say that optimism is delusion no? If that's the case, isn't it deluded to think Avs are going to draft Bratt's every 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th round?

I'd say so... Given the Avs' drafting history, I'd say it is unlikely the Avs would be able to find one of those gems. I like what the Avs did last year in the draft, but they have a long ways to go before they can be counted on with regards to finding players outside of the top 45.

 

[Piestany88]

Makar is not Karlsson and he very likely never will be. He was a 4th in a poor draft year and is not having the college career so far to suggest he’s much better than everybody thought. Not that he’s been bad, he’s actually been playing well, but Heiskanen has been better this year and mcavoy was better last year. If Makar is Karlsson I don’t know what those guys are. EJ is playing okay as a 1D on a bad defence but on a cup champion EJ would not be the best defenceman. Also, both Makar and EJ are RHD, I know Makar said he likes the left side but in the nhl coaches really don’t like that. It’s also important to remember that by the time Makar becomes a 1D (if he ever does) EJ will not be good enough to be on a top pairing anymore. His game doesn’t look like one to me that will age well.

Makar is a lot better than ur giving him credit for . The kid will be better that OEL in the very near future kid is a stud

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Wow. I couldn't dis-agree with you more.

I seriously question people's hockey IQ. Watching Makar he is far superior to the players he goes against. He is a man among boys. He makes the game look simple and slows it down. That is what great players do. It's effortless. And the best thing is he is getting better every game. If he isn't a player like Karlsson who takes over games I will be surprised.

And we already have a #1 Dman. His name is Erik Johnson. He is playing close to 30 minutes a game. If he was playing in a bigger market everyone would be talking about him.

A pairing of Johnson / Makar has the potential to be the best pairing in the league.

And simply put to even suggest trading Makar for OEL is absurd.

How are you guys watching Makar?

 

[Patagonia]

Makar plays on the worst team in a very strong division. They've already won 2 of 5 games or 40%, consider the last 7 years they've only won 25% of their games or 9 wins. He is carrying the team by being a threat each time he's on the ice.

 

[SaltySkywalker]

Makar is a lot better than ur giving him credit for . The kid will be better that OEL in the very near future kid is a stud

In your short tenure on these boards (not that it’s any indication of hockey knowledge) you’ve made some VERY bold claims. Kid might be a stud, but better than OEL?

I think it’s funny in which the certainty you can make these claims when talking about prospects who have never stepped foot on NHL ice.

 

[Freudian]

Makar made a commitment to a weaker program when he wasn't the new hotness. It is what it is, but at least it makes it more likely he will just be there one year. He might even be available for Rampage playoffs, I guess.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I wouldn't call Makar untouchable. But it's a very small list of players that I'm willing to move Makar for.

Werenski, Provorov, Parayko, Hedman, and Pietrangelo.


The rest are either to risky(Karlsson, Ekblad, OEL, Doughty), too old(Keith, Burns, Suter) and the rest I'd quite frankly just rather take my chances on Makar being better then them(Jones, McAvoy, Slavin, Subban, etc.)

 

[henchman21]

Makar is a lot better than ur giving him credit for . The kid will be better that OEL in the very near future kid is a stud

That is a very bold claim. It could be true, but for the struggles OEL has had over the past couple years... he is still a top defensemen in this league. If Makar became 75% of what OEL is, that is a huge success.

From my limited viewings of Makar this season... I think he might need a second NCAA year. He could take monster leaps forward, but he isn't there yet.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

I wouldn't call Makar untouchable. But it's a very small list of players that I'm willing to move Makar for.

Werenski, Provorov, Parayko, Hedman, and Pietrangelo.


The rest are either to risky(Karlsson, Ekblad, OEL, Doughty), too old(Keith, Burns, Suter) and the rest I'd quite frankly just rather take my chances on Makar being better then them(Jones, McAvoy, Slavin, Subban, etc.)

If slavin was offered straight up you'd decline?