Rumor: Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 17-18 Part VIII

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MarkT

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Nov 11, 2017
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You’ve been answered by other posters. Putting Barrie at wing takes away his strengths. Not to mention he gets away with being a bit undersized but stocky on defence but if you think he gets bullied in his own zone, he’d be useless along the boards as an attacker.

You’ll notice that 2 of the 3 that he listed as transitioning successfully ar practically twice Barrie’s size, not a coincidence.

He’s probably not even an NHL caliber player at wing TBH.

Not to mention it then takes our D corps back down to being a significant weakness when this is one of the first years it hasn’t been in ages.

Yeah and I replied to those other posters as well. Forgive me for offering an unpopular opinion.

Also, I fully admit to not being a hockey expert, but Barrie seems to do perfectly well down low in the offensive zone now. I'm not suggesting he be transitioned into a checking line forward. I'm suggesting he be used as a scoring winger and paired with players who can do the heavy lifting down low. And I really don't see how it takes away his strengths. His strengths are his vision with the puck, his passing and his shot. Without the puck in the defensive zone he's, to use your words "probably not even an NHL caliber player" in my opinion.

And I'm not suggesting this be done now. I'm suggesting it as an alternative to trading him when he the blueline starts to get crowded with guys who are also offensively talented.

Easily better as a defensemen... it fits the way he plays the game much better. I think Barrie would be borderline terrible as a scoring winger. You're asking a player who is better with the puck than without it, and isn't the greatest on the boards to play without the puck more and to do boardwork as a main job. Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. IMO Barrie is clearly showing he is a top pairing D. He isn't a #1 by any stretch, but he is a #2 and a very solid one at that.

I'll respectfully disagree at him being a top pairing D. Unless we're judging defensive pairings purely on offensive skill of course.
 

Barklez

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Yeah and I replied to those other posters as well. Forgive me for offering an unpopular opinion.

Also, I fully admit to not being a hockey expert, but Barrie seems to do perfectly well down low in the offensive zone now. I'm not suggesting he be transitioned into a checking line forward. I'm suggesting he be used as a scoring winger and paired with players who can do the heavy lifting down low. And I really don't see how it takes away his strengths. His strengths are his vision with the puck, his passing and his shot. Without the puck in the defensive zone he's, to use your words "probably not even an NHL caliber player" in my opinion.

And I'm not suggesting this be done now. I'm suggesting it as an alternative to trading him when he the blueline starts to get crowded with guys who are also offensively talented.

I'll respectfully disagree at him being a top pairing D. Unless we're judging defensive pairings purely on offensive skill of course.

With all due respect, maybe after this much pushback and sound reasoning from multiple other posters, it’s time to wonder if you’re not seeing the whole picture.
 
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cgf

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I thought you wanted to move Barrie + Sens 1st +++ for Draisatl? If he was so important, why would you even consider a Forward that would play 2C and sacrifice a portion of the young players?

Nemeth has the highest +/- (more than double) the next closest player. Barrie is consistently among the the team leaders regardless of his scoring the worst +/-every year.

A) I wanted to do that because that 2c would also happen to be our second best player. So calling him a 2c is just as asinine as calling Forsberg a 2c was back in the day.

B) I've actually adjusted my dream scenario after the way Tyson has stepped up in EJ's absence...yet again...and how well MacK continues to play. I'm no longer of the opinion that we can take a step back next season in order to take multiple steps forward the year after.

Now my dream scenario is a three-way that gets Karlsson, Kerfoot & the cap space to stupidly overpay JVR to Edmonton; Draisaitl & cap dumps to us; and Timmins + picks from Edmonton & us + a whole bunch of money being saved for Melnyk.
 

Pokecheque

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The only time I've seen a defender switch to forward and still remain effective as a scorer is Brent Burns, he's a big-time outlier though.

Eric Messier of course is another example, but he was never a scorer at either position.

Any other time I've seen the Avs or any other team do it, the results were terrible.
 

MarkT

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Nov 11, 2017
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With all due respect, maybe after this much pushback and sound reasoning from multiple other posters, it’s time to wonder if you’re not seeing the whole picture.

I don't operate like that. Sorry. I'm not convinced by how many people disagree with me. I'm convinced by reasoning and facts and things like that. If someone explains exactly how Barrie would fail spectacularly as a forward despite him performing extremely well deep in the offensive zone as a defensemen, then I'm all ears.

Or we could just ignore my idea because it's obviously never going to happen anyway. I'd be fine with that too. It's not exactly a big deal.
 

dahrougem2

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Dec 9, 2011
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I thought you wanted to move Barrie + Sens 1st +++ for Draisatl? If he was so important, why would you even consider a Forward that would play 2C and sacrifice a portion of the young players?

Nemeth has the highest +/- (more than double) the next closest player. Barrie is consistently among the the team leaders regardless of his scoring the worst +/-every year.
Ahhhhhh the old +/- argument.
 

Barklez

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Mar 27, 2011
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I don't operate like that. Sorry. I'm not convinced by how many people disagree with me. I'm convinced by reasoning and facts and things like that. If someone explains exactly how Barrie would fail spectacularly as a forward despite him performing extremely well deep in the offensive zone as a defensemen, then I'm all ears.

Or we could just ignore my idea because it's obviously never going to happen anyway. I'd be fine with that too. It's not exactly a big deal.

:banghead:

You’re being presented with facts.

Being a winger involves board play, regardless of what line he’s on. Putting him on a line with players that do that work for him makes him a center.

His vision and passing are a strength for him, from the back end. Has it occurred to you that there’s a reason he plays defence? That possibly at a younger age it was realized that these were only strengths of his when the play is in front of him?

His shot is a strength only so far as he is good at getting it trough traffic. Rarely does he beat a goalie, clean 1v1 the way that Mack and Rants do on a semi-nightly basis.

His size is arguably his biggest weakness. Forcing him into the opposition corners with their biggest players only exacerbates this weakness.

Shoehorning him in at wing accentuates his weaknesses and negates his strengths.

If you’re worried about a logjam at D in 2 years because Makar, Timmins and co. are that unbelievably good in their first year pro, AND you deem Barrie to be the most expendable piece of the D corps, then you trade him, in his natural position of strength for maximum value. You don’t devalue him by exposing all of his weaknesses, taking away his strengths, and playing him out of his comfort zone.

Now personally, I’m on board with hench in thinking he’s proven himself as a capable top 2 guy. And seeing as he’s our star player’s best friend, I’d keep him at all costs. Move one of the promising youngsters a la Shattenkirk, and let them prove us wrong on another team, rather than ruining our core during Mack’s prime.
 

CobraAcesS

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The only time I've seen a defender switch to forward and still remain effective as a scorer is Brent Burns, he's a big-time outlier though.

Eric Messier of course is another example, but he was never a scorer at either position.

Any other time I've seen the Avs or any other team do it, the results were terrible.

Dustin Byfuglien, but I don't even remember what he started out as.
 

CobraAcesS

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Ah, good point. Forgot about him, but I always thought they only really used him as a power play specialist and planted him in front of the net during the man-advantage.

I know hes switched back and fourth multiple times. What your talking about is probably his most memorable usage in Chicago's first cup run.
 

EdAVSfan

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Andrei Markov was also a succesful switch from forward to D.

But that was well, a long time ago.

There is no scenario in my mind where I can envision Barrie as a succesful forward. None.
 

dahrougem2

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Andrei Markov was also a succesful switch from forward to D.

But that was well, a long time ago.

There is no scenario in my mind where I can envision Barrie as a succesful forward. None.
When was Markov a forward? He was drafted as a defensemen and was one of the best in Russia prior to coming to Montreal.
 

McMetal

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I'm not a particularly huge fan of Barrie's overall game and I much prefer Girard back there, but I also acknowledge that he has played well the last couple weeks. He's still a bit of a liability on D but he is more than making up for it in terms of production. I just wish he could play like that all the time, because when he's not putting up points he hurts more than he helps.
 

EdAVSfan

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When was Markov a forward? He was drafted as a defensemen and was one of the best in Russia prior to coming to Montreal.
I’ve read on several occasions that Markov was actually a forward prior to the NHL. I’ll see if I can find some articles.

Edit: apparently, Dynamo saw him a defenseman also, and converted him in the same year or the year before he was drafted.
 

dahrougem2

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I’ve read on several occasions that Markov was actually a forward prior to the NHL. I’ll see if I can find some articles.

Edit: apparently, Dynamo saw him a defenseman also, and converted him in the same year or the year before he was drafted.
Maybe he was, but he's been a defensemen his entire NHL career. It's very rare for a defensemen to make the NHL and switch to forward, or vice versa.
 

Ivan13

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Barrie is a D, trying to turn him into a forward, fully knowing his shortcomings are more accentuated playing alongside the boards rather than letting him roam might be the worst idea I've heard in quite some time.
 
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EdAVSfan

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Maybe he was, but he's been a defensemen his entire NHL career. It's very rare for a defensemen to make the NHL and switch to forward, or vice versa.
Oh yes, 100%

He was always a defenseman in the NHL.
And it’s definitely rare. These guys spend their entire lives learning the skills necessary for the position they play. Most don’t even master the skills they need, never mind the ones of other positions.

The thought that Barrie would be an effective winger, imo, is utterly baseless.

Was just trying to add another rarity of a change of position, not defending it.
 
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avsfan09

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Dec 17, 2010
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I don't operate like that. Sorry. I'm not convinced by how many people disagree with me. I'm convinced by reasoning and facts and things like that. If someone explains exactly how Barrie would fail spectacularly as a forward despite him performing extremely well deep in the offensive zone as a defensemen, then I'm all ears.

Or we could just ignore my idea because it's obviously never going to happen anyway. I'd be fine with that too. It's not exactly a big deal.

A lot of Barries offensive game is about being behind the play or high in the zone and jumping in at opportune times. He would have to relearn a whole other game. He's the highest scoring Dman PPG wise this season, why change something that is working well.
 

henchman21

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The one player who I can remember that transitioned the most seamlessly from forward to defensemen in the NHL (as a forward to start) was Sergei Fedorov. I remember Bowman using Fedorov on D for about a month-month and a half and he was outstanding there with Chelios. I believe it happened in Washington and Columbus with some fair frequency as well. As much as I hated the Wings, I can't help but have massive respect for Fedorov as a player... he was special in his prime.
 
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lonelybadger

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The one player who I can remember that transitioned the most seamlessly from forward to defensemen in the NHL (as a forward to start) was Sergei Fedorov. I remember Bowman using Fedorov on D for about a month-month and a half and he was outstanding there with Chelios. I believe it happened in Washington and Columbus with some fair frequency as well. As much as I hated the Wings, I help but have massive respect for Fedorov as a player... he was special in his prime.

Fedorov is a free agent....
 

cgf

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I don't operate like that. Sorry. I'm not convinced by how many people disagree with me. I'm convinced by reasoning and facts and things like that. If someone explains exactly how Barrie would fail spectacularly as a forward despite him performing extremely well deep in the offensive zone as a defensemen, then I'm all ears.

Or we could just ignore my idea because it's obviously never going to happen anyway. I'd be fine with that too. It's not exactly a big deal.

It helps when you just ignore reasoning and facts and things like that that disagree with you. Henchy made a good post explaining why it would be a bad idea, but you didn't want to acknowledge any of that...
 
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