Rumor: Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 17-18 Part VIII

[Pokecheque]

We think our D is bad with him, I can't imagine the horror it would be without him.

You don't have to, we witnessed it last season.

 

[Pokecheque]

I may have been on the "Trade EJ" bandwagon simply because I feel like he is indeed an asset in decline and we've seen the best we're ever gonna see out of him but I think losing him would hurt way more than any assets gained would help in the long run. I've no problem with him becoming this team's Chris Phillips, someone to build around but not necessarily a top-tier elite talent.

 

[lonelybadger]

Yeah don't trade EJ, everyone says he is the real leader on the team. He eats all the hard minutes no one else can come close to eating, sure he isn't a stud 1D but I would say he is a passable top pairing guy on a pretty bad team. Let him stay and in a couple years he can take the grizzly vet 4/5D that plays on the PK and loses a lot of teeth.

 

[Alex Jones]

Bernier/Martin tandem next year?

Varly has one more year and I'd rather not bring him back. Seems like the right time to move him over the next year or so, if anything can be had for him.

 

[Alex Jones]

Ehhhhh EJ is having arguably the best season of his career in terms of overall play if you ask me. I don't think Sakic should be focused on moving him, especially when his contract just kicked in last season. Doesn't set a good precedent for players wanting to sign long term here that Sakic will have no issues moving them out immediately.

I've long been of the opinion that he's going to break down sooner than later due to his style of play and his body type, but I don't think it'd be smart moving him. We think our D is bad with him, I can't imagine the horror it would be without him.

Trading EJ would be hard on the team because he eats a ton of difficult minutes, and right now nobody else on the team is really prepared to take those minutes. That said, I disagree a lot with the argument that he is playing well, he looks a lot like a declining player to me. He has never been that good in his own end, and it seems to me that he's lost some of the explosion and quick-twitch athleticism that made him such a dynamic player earlier in his career. As he slows down more his holes will start to become more apparent, and eventually his contract will probably be straight up bad. Moving him now would be very painful in the short term, but could also be useful in the long term. Preferably you would take back a veteran player that can munch minutes for a year or two, or you make a move in the off season and go for a short term contract with a guy like Mike Green.

 

[dahrougem2]

Trading EJ would be hard on the team because he eats a ton of difficult minutes, and right now nobody else on the team is really prepared to take those minutes. That said, I disagree a lot with the argument that he is playing well, he looks a lot like a declining player to me. He has never been that good in his own end, and it seems to me that he's lost some of the explosion and quick-twitch athleticism that made him such a dynamic player earlier in his career. As he slows down more his holes will start to become more apparent, and eventually his contract will probably be straight up bad. Moving him now would be very painful in the short term, but could also be useful in the long term. Preferably you would take back a veteran player that can munch minutes for a year or two, or you make a move in the off season and go for a short term contract with a guy like Mike Green.

I'll strongly disagree with your assessment of EJ but I don't think we're going to come to an agreement on him. I think he looks fantastic this season and has been our 2nd best player after MacKinnon. Sure, that contract is likely going to be bad in its latter stages but if this is the EJ we can get for roughly 3 more years, I'm fine with whatever happens near the end because it happens to almost every player.

 

[Pokecheque]

I'll agree EJ has been the team's 2nd best player but I also think that's a big reason why this team is hovering around (sometimes below) .500. He hasn't been terrible by any means but I don't think this is his best season either. He's been the best and most consistent defenseman for the team this season but that has more to do with some poor and inconsistent performances from this very young blueline corps, especially and including Tyson Barrie.

 

[Freaky Styley]

Trade EJ? So we can ice an AHL team? EJ is the most important player on our current roster. It seems like losing is catching around here.

 

[EdAVSfan]

I'm convinced there are people who would be comfortable drafting top 5 for the next 5 years.

 

[RockLobster]

I'm convinced there are people who would be comfortable drafting top 5 for the next 5 years.

ASSET MANAGEMENT! DRAFT PICKS > KNOWN NHL PLAYERS!

 

[The Abusement Park]

ASSET MANAGEMENT! DRAFT PICKS > KNOWN NHL PLAYERS!

A top 5 pick could be anything! It could even be another Guenin!

 

[Freudian]

As irritating as EJs bad habits are, he's playing well this year and eat a lot of minutes.

 

[dahrougem2]

Not to mention - again - the horror that we'd have to endure nightly watching a defence minus EJ

 

[Patagonia]

EJ is the heart and leader of the team. Mackinnon is the best player, Landy has the C, but EJ cannot be replaced. His dedication and love of the team, I expect him to retire an AV.

 

[Foppberg]

I've always maintained that we pretty much have two captains, Landy and EJ.

 

[SaltySkywalker]

Yeah don't trade EJ, everyone says he is the real leader on the team. He eats all the hard minutes no one else can come close to eating, sure he isn't a stud 1D but I would say he is a passable top pairing guy on a pretty bad team. Let him stay and in a couple years he can take the grizzly vet 4/5D that plays on the PK and loses a lot of teeth.

Oh wait...

 

[henchman21]

I'm also about how bad goaltending is in any way, shape, or form the fault of the head coach.

Bad goaltending is bad goaltending, but it can be covered up or made worse by coaching.

 

[Pokecheque]

Bad goaltending is bad goaltending, but it can be covered up or made worse by coaching.

Okay but that still doesn't mean anything in terms of the goaltender's individual performance. It doesn't "make it worse," it just exposes it, or, conversely, covers it up as you say. I'd really love to see, how, in fact, he's mishandling goaltenders. I certainly think it's possible for a HC to do so, but Bednar isn't doing that here.

If we were just looking at the raw numbers and nothing else then I could see this argument. But we're watching the same games. Varly has been mediocre at best, save for the huge performance against the Canes (and they have a tendency to make goalies look good anyway). That's not on Bednar, that's on Varlamov and Parkkila.

 

[henchman21]

Okay but that still doesn't mean anything in terms of the goaltender's individual performance. It doesn't "make it worse," it just exposes it, or, conversely, covers it up as you say. I'd really love to see, how, in fact, he's mishandling goaltenders. I certainly think it's possible for a HC to do so, but Bednar isn't doing that here.

If we were just looking at the raw numbers and nothing else then I could see this argument. But we're watching the same games. Varly has been mediocre at best, save for the huge performance against the Canes (and they have a tendency to make goalies look good anyway). That's not on Bednar, that's on Varlamov and Parkkila.

His goalie rotation isn't exactly great IMO. He has mades some pretty poor decisions between playing Varly and Bernier this year. Beyond that though, Bednar has a goalie that doesn't track pucks well, but a defensive system that allows teams to shoot pucks through traffic. Not a good combo IMO. If you recall back to Roy's first year, a big thing Roy always stressed is Varly seeing the puck and Roy's man system cleared the ice of traffic and forced quicker shots. When that system was abandoned, Varly started to struggle and it has been a downhill slide since.

 

[McMetal]

EJ is irreplaceable. Barrie is, I think he's wildly overrated on here. He is only good for offense, and when he isn't producing points, like he is now, he looks awful. He's always bad defensively, the best you can hope for is that he creates more on offense than he gives up on D.

I also think it's strange that nobody is in a hurry to move him with 2.5 years to UFA, when I was told less than a year ago that it was desperately urgent that Duchene with 2.5 years to UFA be moved ASAP before his value was gone, even if all we got was Murray+Abramov+2nd.

 

[Alex Jones]

I'm convinced there are people who would be comfortable drafting top 5 for the next 5 years.

Is this team with EJ much better than that? Unless the Avs bring in a lot of expensive players I have no expectation of competing for the next 3-4 years. I would rather get value for a good asset and suck for those years, as compared to keep that asset around, suck for those years, and be stuck with an anchor when we want to compete.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Competing for what? I feel, especially in a league where half the teams go, we should be thinking playoffs next year.

 

[Pokecheque]

His goalie rotation isn't exactly great IMO. He has mades some pretty poor decisions between playing Varly and Bernier this year. Beyond that though, Bednar has a goalie that doesn't track pucks well, but a defensive system that allows teams to shoot pucks through traffic. Not a good combo IMO. If you recall back to Roy's first year, a big thing Roy always stressed is Varly seeing the puck and Roy's man system cleared the ice of traffic and forced quicker shots. When that system was abandoned, Varly started to struggle and it has been a downhill slide since.

Well, you yourself said Varly's career year is looking more and more like an anomaly. Was that really because Roy's system benefited him? Not quite sure I buy into that. Bednar's (and Pratt's) system is far, far too passive for my tastes but I don't think Roy's system was much better. In fact I'd argue it was worse.

Roy's man-to-man system was abandoned because it simply didn't work. He tried it multiple times and it never worked, nor did Varly magically regain his form. It was child's play to get them to move around like crazy and get people out of position, opening gaping holes in the defensive scheme.

I think Varly has just lost mobility due to age and injuries and hasn't been able to regain his form. You and I have gone back and forth on this regarding Roy's vs. Bednar's systems, I still don't agree that Roy had a viable system at all. In fact, it actively cut down on the team making an effort to just get it the hell out of the zone, whereas Bednar has a decent setup to move the puck up and out quickly. Now they just gotta get way more aggressive and find a way to win more puck battles.

As for the rotation, I'm not a huge fan of it either but I can't blame the guy for being a little cautious regarding a goalie fresh off surgery. I blame management a little more for not making a larger effort to nail down a viable backup once Picks was taken away.

 

[henchman21]

Well, you yourself said Varly's career year is looking more and more like an anomaly. Was that really because Roy's system benefited him? Not quite sure I buy into that. Bednar's (and Pratt's) system is far, far too passive for my tastes but I don't think Roy's system was much better. In fact I'd argue it was worse.

Roy's man-to-man system was abandoned because it simply didn't work. He tried it multiple times and it never worked, nor did Varly magically regain his form. It was child's play to get them to move around like crazy and get people out of position, opening gaping holes in the defensive scheme.

I think Varly has just lost mobility due to age and injuries and hasn't been able to regain his form. You and I have gone back and forth on this regarding Roy's vs. Bednar's systems, I still don't agree that Roy had a viable system at all. In fact, it actively cut down on the team making an effort to just get it the hell out of the zone, whereas Bednar has a decent setup to move the puck up and out quickly. Now they just gotta get way more aggressive and find a way to win more puck battles.

As for the rotation, I'm not a huge fan of it either but I can't blame the guy for being a little cautious regarding a goalie fresh off surgery. I blame management a little more for not making a larger effort to nail down a viable backup once Picks was taken away.

The whole first season the man system worked great. No team really had an answer to break it until Yeo got 7 games in a row on it, and showed the whole NHL how to bust it up. It never recovered from there, though I'd argue the Avs gave up on it too soon. It needed some tweaks, but I don't think it needed abandoned.

I'm not saying Roy's system was better (though I think all the variations he used were, but that is a different debate). I said it was better for Varly. It helped him with his biggest weakness... puck tracking. It cleared lanes and pushed shots outside. If a NHL goalie can see a shot, they should be able to stop it at a very high rate. The results were there for that in 13-14.

I do think Varly has lost athleticism, and that is a part of his struggles now. That is what made him special, and it just isn't there anymore. He should be better than he is now from a talent perspective and part of that is on him. I do think a portion of his issue this year has to do with his poor puck tracking.

 

[EdAVSfan]

Is this team with EJ much better than that? Unless the Avs bring in a lot of expensive players I have no expectation of competing for the next 3-4 years. I would rather get value for a good asset and suck for those years, as compared to keep that asset around, suck for those years, and be stuck with an anchor when we want to compete.

I'm not specifying anything.

All I'm saying is that whoever was on the team, I believe there are some people who get more thrill from the thought of drafting top 5, than to have a competitive team.

It absolutely should NOT take 4 years to compete. Only utter incompetence would take that long.

He have many good young players, in multiple positions, more top picks coming in a loaded draft, out most important player locked up for cheap and cap space coming out of our ears.

It damn well better not take 4 years to "compete"

And to your point, the idea that you can continually suck, and then instantly turn on a switch and become competitive is nonsense.

4 more years of sucktitude would actually represent in losing and losing and losing for the better part of a decade.

A decade.