Post-Game Talk: Avalanche 2, Penguins 1 - The Penguins are Broken

[Speaking Moistly]

That's a waste of a year with Crosby/Malkin. They will be older. We should not forfeit the season, JR should look to trim the fat and bring up the WBS kids.

But what about the fat he added?

Idk, if they can be shaken out of this or retooled around it, tbh. They might need failure as a smack in the face. I’d still like to see them try and at least get some of the younger guys some nhl experience. L4 is useless, Hagelin is whatever you’d describe him as and if Cole gets traded that’s another spot. Simon has looked good so far, Corrado looked good in his games, DiPauli, Bengtsson, Sprong, ZAR and Blueger are in WBS. Even if it’s just a cup of coffee and no one sticks, make it open competition for those spots or any spots.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I hate to call it at this late stage in Crosby/Malkin's career, too. But if this continues much longer, it's probably the prudent choice. Throwing bad money after bad money never works.

 

[Fatty McLardy]

Please.

With the way their fwds are playing in their own zone right now, he would be one of the more responsible players on the ice.

Sheary was absolutely atrocious defensively in the A and he still came up and gave them a big boost.

Seriously, whatever happened to letting the rookies play through their mistakes. Bylsma never did that and benched Despres and other rookies when they made mistakes meanwhile let Gladams play after many of their failures. Then Sully comes in and we all love him for giving ice time to our young guys and putting them in the position to succeed (w/ Sid, Geno). So why the hell are we not taking a chance on Sprong who can becomes another Guentzel, or Sheary for us...Before the season started people said no to trading him for Duchene, now after few healthy scratches later, some of them can't wait to trade him for some 3rd liner...

 

[Gurglesons]

Seriously, whatever happened to letting the rookies play through their mistakes. Bylsma never did that and benched Despres and other rookies when they made mistakes meanwhile let Gladams play after many of their failures. Then Sully comes in and we all love him for giving ice time to our young guys and putting them in the position to succeed (w/ Sid, Geno). So why the hell are we not taking a chance on Sprong who can becomes another Guentzel, or Sheary for us...Before the season started people said no to trading him for Duchene, now after few healthy scratches later, some of them can't wait to trade him for some 3rd liner...

I think you can make the argument that Sully really hasn’t done much “development” up here.

He actually just had his guys from when he coached in WBS and they brought them up.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I hate to call it at this late stage in Crosby/Malkin's career, too. But if this continues much longer, it's probably the prudent choice. Throwing bad money after bad money never works.

Yeah, if they were showing any improvement this would be a different conversation. They just look like a lazy, stupid and disinterested team most of the time. You can see when they bother to try how all of a sudden they look so much better but they either can’t or won’t do that with regularity. Maybe something happens and we look back on this and laugh but right now the season does look like it’s in jeopardy of being a write off. The worst thing that could happen would be some moronic desperation trade.

What’s frustrating is that it looks like they spent so much of the season ignoring the problems or thinking they'd sort themselves out. Not to harp on it, but the 4th line is shitty and they had no excuse for leaving it alone or saying it was fine. They have bigger problems but you don’t ignore the easiest thing to tinker with.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Do you feel like Sprong is not improving his game in the A?

What is the need to pull him up outside of fans thinking he’d have an impact on this team?

Like, if he gets the Johnston treatment from Sully, you don’t think he is going to get a little sour?

I said awhile back I think Sprong is a different case and they will try to over coach him into being a systematic player. I just don't think he is ever going to fit into that box that coaches prefer.

The league today tries to coach out creativity, unless a player is exceptional. Sprong kind of falls in the middle where he is very talented, but won't get that preferential treatment an Eichel or Laine will get for not being great at both ends.

They can keep him down in the A all they like and bash their heads agt the wall, but I don't see him making more than minor gains in his all around game down there.

 

[vodeni]

I said awhile back I think Sprong is a different case and they will try to over coach him into being a systematic player. I just don't think he is ever going to fit into that box that coaches prefer.

The league today tries to coach out creativity, unless a player is exceptional. Sprong kind of falls in the middle where he is very talented, but won't get that preferential treatment an Eichel or Laine will get for not being great at both ends.

They can keep him down in the A all they like and bash their heads agt the wall, but I don't see him making more than minor gains in his all around game down there.

this is probably true, but who cares? Boesner has zero defensive game but raking up goals and everyone is happy. None of our forwards are playing 200 ft game...and as you said..and as we have been preaching from the beginning...why not call up guys from A one by one try them a week or two and see what you have. ZAR, TB, Di Pauli, Johnson, etc,..any of those guys would be worse than McKegg?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

this is probably true, but who cares? Boesner has zero defensive game but raking up goals and everyone is happy. None of our forwards are playing 200 ft game...and as you said..and as we have been preaching from the beginning...why not call up guys from A one by one try them a week or two and see what you have. ZAR, TB, Di Pauli, Johnson, etc,..any of those guys would be worse than McKegg?

Sprong is a lot like Kessel in the effort he gives at times. When he wants, just like Kessel, he can be a beast on the backcheck and quite good in his own end.

He's just not going to do that 82 games a year like a Hossa. He's going to drift and leave the zone early at times, take risks with the puck, etc.

Seeing as how Kessel apparently drives Sullivan nuts, I'm not surprised Sprong isn't up yet and they are trying to pound him into being a responsible two way guy.

It's just very unlikely to happen IMHO, because Sprong is just wired differently like Kessel. He's got passable two way play right now, but they apparently think they can re-wire him, and I think it's wasting his talent down there, waiting for him to become something he isn't.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think you can make the argument that Sully really hasn’t done much “development” up here.

He actually just had his guys from when he coached in WBS and they brought them up.

I agree.

I'm not trying to throw Sullivan under the bus too hard or anything. But I don't see him so much as a development coach that has all this patience and boundless enthusiasm for young players. He had his guys in WB/S and brought them up. The end.

I also couldn't agree more with Jiggy re: Sprong. If they are really trying to force mold him into some sort of two way forward... he's already done for. Why even draft him if that's the case?

 

[Gurglesons]

Sprong is a lot like Kessel in the effort he gives at times. When he wants, just like Kessel, he can be a beast on the backcheck and quite good in his own end.

He's just not going to do that 82 games a year like a Hossa. He's going to drift and leave the zone early at times, take risks with the puck, etc.

Seeing as how Kessel apparently drives Sullivan nuts, I'm not surprised Sprong isn't up yet and they are trying to pound him into being a responsible two way guy.

It's just very unlikely to happen IMHO, because Sprong is just wired differently like Kessel. He's got passable two way play right now, but they apparently think they can re-wire him, and I think it's wasting his talent down there, waiting for him to become something he isn't.

So, do you think Sully isn’t going to play him ten minutes a night or something?

Honestly, I’ve been under the assumption the best usage of Sprong would be in a trade all year. Hornqvist, Rust, Kessel are going to be our RWs for hopefully the next three years, Jake and Sheary are solid too. We need to get a 3C with Sprong’s pedigree.

 

[SEALBound]

Honestly guys, I think this is just a tired, worn-out squad. This team has played a TON of hockey in the last two years. But, I like the structure of the team. I just honestly think that this might be the cup hangover year that we've been regretting. TBH, if we sold at the deadline, missed the playoffs, got some good draft picks, and geared up for another legit run at the cup next season with a rested squad, I wouldn't be mad.

Who is physically tired and worn out though?

There's a difference between giving a half hearted effort and being too physically exhausted to do so. This team is on auto-pilot most nights. Only recently did Sid wake up. Malkin is going through the motions. Phil actually looks like he tries...at times.

Everyone else...meh, going through the motions.

Building up to April is a process. You can't expect June intensity game in and game out. That said, I don't like the way they are playing as a team. I hate the defensive zone structure, I don't like our center depth, and we aren't getting what we need out of key players.

The "they're tired" excuse would be valid on a Saturday afternoon game where they played Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday during the week with major travel. Blaming auto-pilot play on games played 6 months ago? No.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

I hate to call it at this late stage in Crosby/Malkin's career, too. But if this continues much longer, it's probably the prudent choice. Throwing bad money after bad money never works.

I think people need to brace themselves because I believe it will happen. They're in a weird place where the sun has just started to set on the window, so you can't exactly throw in the towel. The nucleus that won two Cups is still here but everyone's a year older, and they're hard years. With little cap space to work with, I expect at least one extremely controversial trade that we'll likely regret a few years from now.

 

[billybudd]

Can we talk about Hunwick? I'm really at a loss as to what he thought he was doing out there last night.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think people need to brace themselves because I believe it will happen. They're in a weird place where the sun has just started to set on the window, so you can't exactly throw in the towel. The nucleus that won two Cups is still here but everyone's a year older, and they're hard years. With little cap space to work with, I expect at least one extremely controversial trade that we'll likely regret a few years from now.

Hard to argue. I expect it... I just don't like it.

 

[SEALBound]

I agree.

I'm not trying to throw Sullivan under the bus too hard or anything. But I don't see him so much as a development coach that has all this patience and boundless enthusiasm for young players. He had his guys in WB/S and brought them up. The end.

I also couldn't agree more with Jiggy re: Sprong. If they are really trying to force mold him into some sort of two way forward... he's already done for. Why even draft him if that's the case?

Kuhn, Wilson, Rust, Sheary, Murray in 16

Jake in 17

...Simon, I guess, this year.

In 16 though, we had a trove of injuries that let him call those guys up. The only reason Jake got the call last year was because Kunitz got hurt.

JR and Sully need to have a sit down and start hashing out who stays and who goes. If I'm Sullivan, I want to start trying some WBS guys to see if there's anything there. Right now you could easily scratch Reaves and add in another guy (not Kuhn or Archibald). Trade Kuhn, send Archi down. Call up Sprong and DiPauli. Play they 3-4 games, send them down. Call up ZAR and Johnson/Bleuger. Wash, rinse, repeat.

In the meantime, JR explores trades for guys who can help using those he and JR don't want as bait. Change the 4th line philosophy. Run 4 scoring lines. We flat out DO have the depth to do so. Playing Reaves night in and night out is hampering this roster in a major way. Selective usage. Until then, nothing changes.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Can we talk about Hunwick? I'm really at a loss as to what he thought he was doing out there last night.

Just last night?

 

[Coastal Kev]

Never understood the signing of Hunwick when we had Pouliot. DP is cheaper with more upside and a former 1st round who was never given an extended look.

Dumb

 

[billybudd]

Just last night?

No, but he really stood out last night as a negative (before I nodded off).

 

[Shady Machine]

No, but he really stood out last night as a negative (before I nodded off).

Agreed. I haven't been particularly impressed with him on the whole.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Kuhn, Wilson, Rust, Sheary, Murray in 16

Jake in 17

...Simon, I guess, this year.

In 16 though, we had a trove of injuries that let him call those guys up. The only reason Jake got the call last year was because Kunitz got hurt.

JR and Sully need to have a sit down and start hashing out who stays and who goes. If I'm Sullivan, I want to start trying some WBS guys to see if there's anything there. Right now you could easily scratch Reaves and add in another guy (not Kuhn or Archibald). Trade Kuhn, send Archi down. Call up Sprong and DiPauli. Play they 3-4 games, send them down. Call up ZAR and Johnson/Bleuger. Wash, rinse, repeat.

In the meantime, JR explores trades for guys who can help using those he and JR don't want as bait. Change the 4th line philosophy. Run 4 scoring lines. We flat out DO have the depth to do so. Playing Reaves night in and night out is hampering this roster in a major way. Selective usage. Until then, nothing changes.

Jarry, and I guess Corrado looking good might make the decision to trade Cole easier because the D has some more reliable depth than assumed. In a weird twist being relatively healthy has hurt their ability to see WBS players for a few games without having to make a tough decision. A winger gets hurt and Simon gets his chance. Simon looks good and could help them this season if he keeps it up.

Can we talk about Hunwick? I'm really at a loss as to what he thought he was doing out there last night.

He’s been varying degrees of frustrating since he came back. I thought he was starting to look good before the concussion. Maybe it’s not fair to judge him since so many of them look bad but he hasn’t been impressing.

 

[Gurglesons]

At least Hunwick is in his late 20s and can’t get any worse....

Oh wait.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Kuhn, Wilson, Rust, Sheary, Murray in 16

Jake in 17

...Simon, I guess, this year.

In 16 though, we had a trove of injuries that let him call those guys up. The only reason Jake got the call last year was because Kunitz got hurt.

JR and Sully need to have a sit down and start hashing out who stays and who goes. If I'm Sullivan, I want to start trying some WBS guys to see if there's anything there. Right now you could easily scratch Reaves and add in another guy (not Kuhn or Archibald). Trade Kuhn, send Archi down. Call up Sprong and DiPauli. Play they 3-4 games, send them down. Call up ZAR and Johnson/Bleuger. Wash, rinse, repeat.

In the meantime, JR explores trades for guys who can help using those he and JR don't want as bait. Change the 4th line philosophy. Run 4 scoring lines. We flat out DO have the depth to do so. Playing Reaves night in and night out is hampering this roster in a major way. Selective usage. Until then, nothing changes.

Here is the problem with bringing up guys from WBS. They are mostly cut of the same cloth to what they already dress.

Under sized skilled wingers with good to great skating.

The only guy who seems to work with Sid and keep puck possession going is Hornqvist. That just due to the style he plays. There literally is no lunch pail guys in the top six outside of Hornqvist, Crosby and Geno.

Just watch Sid's line with Sheary, Guentzel or Rust flanking Sid. There's times where all three players are trying to gain possession of the puck in a board battle. Basically, the wingers are getting overpowered and losing puck possession. They come in get their one opportunity and it's over.

This scenario plays out at both ends of the rink.

This team was more diverse and a 4 line attack that's no longer able to provide simply because they are overstocked with too much of the same. Add in bad fits plus the loss of the center depth it's really not hard to see why 5 on 5 plays are squashed.

Edit: The Pens were not all speed, they had a good mix of both.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I'm surprised folks are down on Hunwick (in general, not just about last night). I've been relatively happy with his game.

*When I say happy, I mean in the "he seems to do a decent job as a bottom pairing guy" and not a "trade everyone in our top four because he can log top pairing minutes" sort of way.

 

[cygnus47]

Here is the problem with bringing up guys from WBS. They are mostly cut of the same cloth to what they already dress.

Under sized skilled wingers with good to great skating.

The only guy who seems to work with Sid and keep puck possession going is Hornqvist. That just due to the style he plays. There literally is no lunch pail guys in the top six outside of Hornqvist, Crosby and Geno.

Just watch Sid's line with Sheary, Guentzel or Rust flanking Sid. There's times where all three players are trying to gain possession of the puck in a board battle. Basically, the wingers are getting overpowered and losing puck possession. They come in get their one opportunity and it's over.

This scenario plays out at both ends of the rink.

This team was more diverse and a 4 line attack that's no longer able to provide simply because they are overstocked with too much of the same. Add in bad fits plus the loss of the center depth it's really not hard to see why 5 on 5 plays are squashed.

Edit: The Pens were not all speed, they had a good mix of both.

I don't buy that the lines or any particular players are the problem. We have been winning the possession/shots battle convincingly for the last 15+ games. We don't play a grinding style so this small winger thing is IMO irrelevant. We are meant to be playing a speed game, causing turnovers etc not grinding. You saw in the 1st period how we could dominate the neutral zone with our current lineup when things were clicking. You don't need big guys to do any of that.

Our issue at the moment is that we don't defend well. It's not that we're competing in the D zone and getting overpowered, we're just lackadaisical and we aren't on the same page. We aren't losing board battles and then getting scored on or getting bullied in front of the net. 2 guys are going to the same puck carrier, people aren't picking up the late man, we aren't supporting the puck at the right time or providing outlets for 50 50 battles. We're allowing too many low percentage passes to get through and giving the opponent too much space up high. Those are all systemic issues that everyone is screwing up and we have been all year. We've improved the neutral zone but we're really struggling in the D zone.

The offensive zone will come.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

So, do you think Sully isn’t going to play him ten minutes a night or something?

Honestly, I’ve been under the assumption the best usage of Sprong would be in a trade all year. Hornqvist, Rust, Kessel are going to be our RWs for hopefully the next three years, Jake and Sheary are solid too. We need to get a 3C with Sprong’s pedigree.

About the dumbest thing they could do is trade him. His current value in a trade vs what he could become is a massive chasm.

Goal scorers are too rare to piss away and selling low would be asinine as hell. Don't forget how people were throwing Guentzel into trades a couple seasons ago.

JR has other assets, including a first and a second, to land a third pivot.