Auston Matthews vs Patrik Laine - Round V (MOD WARNING: BEHAVE!)

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UsernameWasTaken

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How is Matthews being overhyped?

People claiming that he's one of the best 1OAs since Crosby, that if he had gone to the NCAA as a 17 year old he would have challenged 18 year old Eichel for the Hobey Baker, there is a "consensus" that had he been in last year's draft he would have gone 2nd OA, Laine isn't even close to his talent level, he has 90 pt potential...
 

The Winter Soldier

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Indeed I do, which is why I find posters like you so entertaining. But the overhyping of Laine should at least be backed up. Matthews is the BPA, he is the clear #1 pick, he has been called An Eichel-level talent, he has been projected to be a franchise talent and all of this is easily accessible online. So when Laine fanboys want to make a claim in order to pump-his-tires while also devaluing AM to his level they should back it up by legit sources, no?

Not according to Bob Mckenzie, he would be considered a legitimate source would he not? Matthew may be the #1 ranked player, I would not disagree with this. But claiming he is a slam dunk clear #1, as I think you are saying he is. Is not accurate according to Mckenzie's report.

But when 10 NHL scouts were surveyed by TSN in late January/early February, all 10 had Matthews at No. 1. This time, in a survey of the same 10 scouts – conducted in the run-up to Saturday's NHL draft lottery – two of the 10 said Laine is now No. 1 on their team's lists. Others suggested they had to think long and hard about their decision to keep Matthews at No. 1.
 

psycho_dad*

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Indeed I do, which is why I find posters like you so entertaining. But the overhyping of Laine should at least be backed up. Matthews is the BPA, he is the clear #1 pick, he has been called An Eichel-level talent, he has been projected to be a franchise talent and all of this is easily accessible online. So when Laine fanboys want to make a claim in order to pump-his-tires while also devaluing AM to his level they should back it up by legit sources, no?

Game is the most legit source. What happens on the ice.

Not what someone writes and projects or how many people say something. Is everything in your life this authority based? Someone needs to tell you how things are, you can't do the research yourself? Don't appeal to authority or consensus with me, I loathe logical fallacy.

Laine is leading the world championships in scoring. You apparently don't understand why it's special even though it has been shown by historical stats that nobody has ever done that at his age. When people completely ignore and downplay facts like that, all it shows is their ridiculous bias.
 

NarcoPolo

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People claiming that he's one of the best 1OAs since Crosby, that if he had gone to the NCAA as a 17 year old he would have challenged 18 year old Eichel for the Hobey Baker, there is a "consensus" that had he been in last year's draft he would have gone 2nd OA, Laine isn't even close to his talent level, he has 90 pt potential...

Must be some outlier leaf fans/ Matthews fans..

-Mcdavid..
-Not likely, Eichel has a year on Matthews development wise
-The consensus was actually stated that he would likely have gone 3rd OVR
-Laine is quite close talent wise to Matthews (I still think Matthews is better though)
-I would say Matthews has PPG potential while having a solid two-way game.

Some Laine/jets fans are also hyping Laine just as much if not more than Matthews fans, claiming he'll be the best player in the world if he overcomes his weakness's.
 

Patmac40

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People claiming that he's one of the best 1OAs since Crosby, that if he had gone to the NCAA as a 17 year old he would have challenged 18 year old Eichel for the Hobey Baker, there is a "consensus" that had he been in last year's draft he would have gone 2nd OA, Laine isn't even close to his talent level, he has 90 pt potential...

1) It's been talked about since last year that he could've challenged Eichel for the second spot. If he's seen as an equal level talent to Eichel (who was essentially deemed just to be behind McDavid as far as the best prospect since Crosby) then that would make him one of the (not the absolute) best 1OAs since Crosby.

2) His points in international tournaments have been greater than Eichel's at the same age, sometimes by a wide margin. Can't really say how he would've done at the NCAA level but he went over a ppg in pro. All this considered, along with the fact that Eichel has 90 point potential, why wouldn't he have that potential in him?

3) I've been through this thread a few times and haven't really come across people saying that Laine isn't even close to his talent level. If there are, please feel free to quote some because I honestly did miss them. That would be outlandish.
 

Lonny Bohonos

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People claiming that he's one of the best 1OAs since Crosby, that if he had gone to the NCAA as a 17 year old he would have challenged 18 year old Eichel for the Hobey Baker, there is a "consensus" that had he been in last year's draft he would have gone 2nd OA, Laine isn't even close to his talent level, he has 90 pt potential...

How is comparing him to Eichel overhyping? I could see it if Eichel was a 5 years into his career and playing like Crosby.
 

Cotton

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People claiming that he's one of the best 1OAs since Crosby, that if he had gone to the NCAA as a 17 year old he would have challenged 18 year old Eichel for the Hobey Baker, there is a "consensus" that had he been in last year's draft he would have gone 2nd OA, Laine isn't even close to his talent level, he has 90 pt potential...

That's you argument for overhyping? LOL. Opinions of fans and scouts isn't overhyping.

Not according to Bob Mckenzie, he would be considered a legitimate source would he not? Matthew may be the #1 ranked player, I would not disagree with this. But claiming he is a slam dunk clear #1, as I think you are saying he is. Is not accurate according to Mckenzie's report.

But it is, if I make a poll right now asking who's better between these two kids the first 10 votes could go either way, it simply depends on who the first 10 posters are. But the longer it's up and the morse posters vote the more accurate the results will be. BobMac spoke to 10 scouts and 2 of them picked Laine, who is currently ranked 3rd by ISS, had he kep going that 20% would of shrunk dramatically.

Bob also said most EU scouts he talked to think Laine is better, but in the same interview that was posted in the other thread he said there is likely a bias there.

So Bob is saying these EU scouts who think Laine is better are biased. Because Bobs word is gold right.
 

4thline

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People claiming that he's one of the best 1OAs since Crosby, that if he had gone to the NCAA as a 17 year old he would have challenged 18 year old Eichel for the Hobey Baker, there is a "consensus" that had he been in last year's draft he would have gone 2nd OA, Laine isn't even close to his talent level, he has 90 pt potential...

A lot of these things haven't been said. He would have challenged for 2nd overall last year, IMO a coinflip. Best since Crosby idk, but IMO is in a 3 way tie for 2nd (with Ekblad and Eichel) since Tavares. I see 90 point peak potential, but I think 70 is more likely. I see a clear but small gap between him and Laine.
 

LoveNHL

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Matthews will go as No 1 in coming draft. Laines performance will not change it. Consider following and you will realize why.

If Toronto picks Matthews and also gets Stamkos the team will have two lines to build an offensive around. Both are centers and can play vital roles in PP. The team will benefit from having two amazing centers. If Toronto picks Laine I am afraid of seeing only one offensive line,which makes the team vounerable and too dependent on one producing line. The entire team gets a far more solid core with Matthews. I say this despite having the feeling Laine will be more productive. Toronto simply NEEDS Matthews.

Cheers.....:)
 

psycho_dad*

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Matthews isn't being overhyped.

Well, when he is not producing or winning in league playoffs and in WHC or WJC at the same rate as Laine with way more ice time, and people are still touting him as the CLEAR AND OBVIOUS MILES AHEAD prospect....yeah that kinda goes to the territory of overhyping.

Of course there are reasons why he isn't producing and winning as much in WHC (he's on a worse team). But you really need some creative and biased thinking to put this guy CLEARLY ahead. Guy who has made the same number of bad turnovers than Laine, hasn't been a monster two way center (he shouldn't be, it's adults tournament and he is facing seasoned professionals of the highest level...it should not be the expectation), and is not offensively as productive and dynamic as Laine has been.

Results speak for themselves. Matthews is a different player than Laine, and Matthews IS a franchise center prospect for very good reasons. He'll be an absolute gem for anyone who gets him.

But to put him clearly ahead of a player who has clearly outproduced and out won him since december 2015, and who is 8 months (full season) younger at the age of their most rapid development...that's just completely unwarranted. There is no logical reason to do this, the only argument I hear is "but but...he was the favorite for so long and consensus this and that and it says so on the internet. Oh and intangibles and little things, would someone PLEASE think about the little things". Well, Laine is saying something else on the ice since december.

I won't argue that Laine would be as good of a skater as Matthews is now, I won't argue that Laine would be as good of a two way player now either. Probably will never be, he's a winger and Matthews is a center.

I don't understand why any of you would argue that Matthews is somehow close as a shooter and a goal scorer. He isn't. He's good at that too, but he's not Laine. To argue against that is pure bias or sheer ignorance...one of those "I read it online but never actually seen them play".
 

4thline

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Game is the most legit source. What happens on the ice.

Not what someone writes and projects or how many people say something. Is everything in your life this authority based? Someone needs to tell you how things are, you can't do the research yourself? Don't appeal to authority or consensus with me, I loathe logical fallacy.

Laine is leading the world championships in scoring. You apparently don't understand why it's special even though it has been shown by historical stats that nobody has ever done that at his age. When people completely ignore and downplay facts like that, all it shows is their ridiculous bias.

No, it shows rational thought and analytical ability. The number of goals he scores in this tournament is fairly inconsequential, anecdotal support at best.
 

The Winter Soldier

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That's you argument for overhyping? LOL. Opinions of fans and scouts isn't overhyping.



But it is, if I make a poll right now asking who's better between these two kids the first 10 votes could go either way, it simply depends on who the first 10 posters are. But the longer it's up and the morse posters vote the more accurate the results will be. BobMac spoke to 10 scouts and 2 of them picked Laine, who is currently ranked 3rd by ISS, had he kep going that 20% would of shrunk dramatically.

Bob also said most EU scouts he talked to think Laine is better, but in the same interview that was posted in the other thread he said there is likely a bias there.

So Bob is saying these EU scouts who think Laine is better are biased. Because Bobs word is gold right.

I doubt posters are better sources than Bob's 10 scouts. You can't get a more reputable sample of scouts than Bob's list can you? Matthews and Laine both played in Europe this year. EU scouts would have seen them the most would they have not? Thus I do not understand why they would favour one over the other as your claim seems to suggest.
 

Future

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People claiming that he's one of the best 1OAs since Crosby, that if he had gone to the NCAA as a 17 year old he would have challenged 18 year old Eichel for the Hobey Baker, there is a "consensus" that had he been in last year's draft he would have gone 2nd OA, Laine isn't even close to his talent level, he has 90 pt potential...

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Craig Button was the one to say he's one of the best first overall players since Crosby. He actually said he would take him over everyone in the past 11 years other than Crosby and McDavid.

Don't think anyone is saying there is a consensus that he would have gone 2nd last year. Just that him and Eichel are on the same level.

People saying Laine isn't even close to his talent level are most likely trolling

He might very well have 90 point POTENTIAL.

Why don't we discuss the Ovechkin/Jagr/Mario comparisons, 100pt predictions, generational tags, etc. That people are talking about with Laine. :handclap: :help:
 

psycho_dad*

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No, it shows rational thought and analytical ability. The number of goals he scores in this tournament is fairly inconsequential, anecdotal support at best.

If you ignore historical data in your "rational thought and analytical ability" then you might want to look those up again.

When you are this clueless, ignoring the level of the tournament and historical comparisons to former or current greats, you should not even type the words "rational thought".
 

Cotton

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Game is the most legit source. What happens on the ice.

Not what someone writes and projects or how many people say something. Is everything in your life this authority based? Someone needs to tell you how things are, you can't do the research yourself? Don't appeal to authority or consensus with me, I loathe logical fallacy.

Laine is leading the world championships in scoring. You apparently don't understand why it's special even though it has been shown by historical stats that nobody has ever done that at his age. When people completely ignore and downplay facts like that, all it shows is their ridiculous bias.

What I understand is that you put to much trust in your eyes and ability to process what your seeing. That even fellow Finn's think your too much of a hyperbolic homer and that the weight you put into small sample sizes while ignoring context makes your arguments come off as if you just started watching the game within the past year.

If you want to make an argument for Laine over Matthews that flys in the face of all available evidence, including the eye test, then yeah, back it up in a way that doesn't rely upon blind trust that you (or anyone) knows what they are talking about.

For example, Laine put up points. Context; against inferior teams while playing with good line mates on the pp.

Laine broke Jagr's record. Context; not many prospects were even given a shot at it.
 

Huffer

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Must be some outlier leaf fans/ Matthews fans..

-Mcdavid..
-Not likely, Eichel has a year on Matthews development wise
-The consensus was actually stated that he would likely have gone 3rd OVR
-Laine is quite close talent wise to Matthews (I still think Matthews is better though)
-I would say Matthews has PPG potential while having a solid two-way game.

Some Laine/jets fans are also hyping Laine just as much if not more than Matthews fans, claiming he'll be the best player in the world if he overcomes his weakness's.

Personally have read these threads but not posted much but will commend on the bolded. Across all the Matthews and Laine threads there have been very little Jets posters posting compared to the total. The ones that have IMO have been saying how happy they are to be picking one of these guys. Of the others, most that I have seen have posted that of the two, you really have to pick the #1C if your're picking #1 (myself included).

I think it's incorrect to say that there a large group of Jets fans pumping up Laine from what I've been reading. Happy to get one of the 3 mostly.
 

4thline

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If you ignore historical data in your "rational thought and analytical ability" then you might want to look those up again.

When you are this clueless, ignoring the level of the tournament and historical comparisons to former or current greats, you should not even type the words "rational thought".

3 Games, where he has scored 4 goals on 11 shots, all 4 in the 8 shots against sub NHL goaltending and teams, 0/3 against an NHL back-up. It's too small a sample, in too different of conditions.

The value European's put in the WHC's doesn't change the fact that only 2-4 teams in this tournament could compete in the NHL.

How Laine looks in general (and against the other 2-3 teams specifically) is far more important than whether or not he put 2 one-timers or 5 past the german goalie.

He looks damn impressive.
 

The Sweetness

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This thread has gone insane.

It's like some posters feel Toronto is biased and are purposely choosing the second best prospect for the sole purpose of trolling a few insane HF posters.
 

QnebO

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Feb 11, 2010
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I wish people will not:

A) Try to think game against hungary can mean anything even if he scores alot

B) People don't try to discredit the player neither because of it
 

Cotton

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I doubt posters are better sources than Bob's 10 scouts. You can't get a more reputable sample of scouts than Bob's list can you? Matthews and Laine both played in Europe this year. EU scouts would have seen them the most would they have not? Thus I do not understand why they would favour one over the other as your claim seems to suggest.

I agree, posters aren't a better source than scouts. Which is why Matthews being #1 and Laine being #3 aren't an artifact of posters but scouts.

Bob has suggested a bias amongst some EU scouts, why that may be? Because one is European and the other an American most likely. Could also have to do with that Matthews is a complete player and Laine plays the more exciting brand of hockey, or a combination.
 

Raging Bull

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Matthews will go as No 1 in coming draft. Laines performance will not change it. Consider following and you will realize why.

If Toronto picks Matthews and also gets Stamkos the team will have two lines to build an offensive around. Both are centers and can play vital roles in PP. The team will benefit from having two amazing centers. If Toronto picks Laine I am afraid of seeing only one offensive line,which makes the team vounerable and too dependent on one producing line. The entire team gets a far more solid core with Matthews. I say this despite having the feeling Laine will be more productive. Toronto simply NEEDS Matthews.

Cheers.....:)

I think this is what rubs people the wrong way about some of the Laine homerism. The Leafs won't pick Matthews over Laine because of those reasons, they'll simply draft him because they feel he projects to be the best player in the draft. If they feel Laine projects as the best, they'll pick him.
 
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