Auston Matthews vs Patrik Laine - Round V (MOD WARNING: BEHAVE!)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Mahonkinen

Registered User
Sep 18, 2013
258
0
If he can overcome all his weaknesses he will be the best player ever.

The point is whenever something is brought up in regards to his weaknesses the response is immediately "no thats not a weakness of his" or "he can easily overcome that".

Lets look at Ovi who gets touted as a comparable and who is well on his way to being one of the best ever goalscorers. A lofty level of comparison indeed. Does he have weaknesses?

Well Laines weaknesses just happens to be something thats fixable in my opinion. Like skating and 2way game. Tho I think ppl undervalue them a bit here.
 

Brun0

Registered User
Jul 24, 2009
1,382
212
Pulju might become best of them :D

He is insane skater with amazing glide.
 

NarcoPolo

Registered User
Jul 16, 2012
7,183
224
If he can overcome all his weaknesses he will be the best player ever.

The point is whenever something is brought up in regards to his weaknesses the response is immediately "no thats not a weakness of his" or "he can easily overcome that".

Lets look at Ovi who gets touted as a comparable and who is well on his way to being one of the best ever goalscorers. A lofty level of comparison indeed. Does he have weaknesses?

well in comparison to his strengths, his skating isn't really one of them, and his defensive game isn't really close to his offensive game.

With that being said I wouldnt say being an average skater isnt a weakness per say, especially when your as big as Laine is. I think that is something that he can overcome and definitely improve, but I also think that it will limit his effectiveness in the league.

Overcoming his weaknesses doesnt mean he makes it a strength in his game it just means he can refine his game so that he can still be effective despite his weaknesses, imo.
 

skillhockey

Registered User
Feb 26, 2013
1,839
26
Pulju might become best of them :D

He is insane skater with amazing glide.

The skating isn't that big of an issue if the skills are there. Tavares was so slow, he's been working with it for years but he just doesn't have it in genes.
 

BB88

Registered User
Jan 19, 2015
40,796
20,390
Its laughable really.

Laine fanbois are like:

"Laine is better than Pulju because even though Pulju hasmore raw potential Laine is already proving it."

"Laine is better than Matthews because even though Matthews is already proving it Laine has more raw potential."

Plus seemingly all of Laines weaknesses which he has few of are easily fixable.

So really he will be the best player ever. Better than his apparent comparable Lemieux.


I like Laine but the over hyping has made it near impossible to not argue back.

FFS.

And some posters make it near impossible to not argue back.
How often has this thread mentioned Laine only has his shot,
Or he needs someone to carry him?
Words that simply aren't true.

http://www.mtv.fi/sport/mm2016/uuti...887144?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

Wrotes how year ago Laine wasn't good enough to play at Mestis playoffs, 2nd level league and just 1 year later he was selected the MVP in Liiga playoffs, that shows you the development he has been able to make and makes you wonder how much he can still develop, and how much does that 7 months difference mean.

The thing you ignore in your post is that skating is Laines biggest weakness right now, but we know already,
-He had a knee injury which hold him down last year and now had a healthy offseason,
-He has the best skating coaches in Finland you could get, Barkovs skating has improved so much, it's gone from weakness to strenght, and he really had 1 offseason to train with same guys Laine will,
-Laine works with strength coach that trains with our NHL players, they know where their focus will be and he has said Laine is still very raw physically and has ton of room to improve.
 

Lonny Bohonos

Registered User
Apr 4, 2010
15,645
2,060
Middle East
well in comparison to his strengths, his skating isn't really one of them, and his defensive game isn't really close to his offensive game.

With that being said I wouldnt say being an average skater isnt a weakness per say, especially when your as big as Laine is. I think that is something that he can overcome and definitely improve, but I also think that it will limit his effectiveness in the league.

Overcoming his weaknesses doesnt mean he makes it a strength in his game it just means he can refine his game so that he can still be effective despite his weaknesses, imo.
Sure. Maybe.

However as it comes to comparing the two people bring up Laines weaknesses and rarely as a "he sucks at X" form and the response is as I said before "no its not" or "he can overcome that". Essentially Laine has or will not have any weaknesses.
 

Lonny Bohonos

Registered User
Apr 4, 2010
15,645
2,060
Middle East
And some posters make it near impossible to not argue back.
How often has this thread mentioned Laine only has his shot,
Or he needs someone to carry him?
Words that simply aren't true.

http://www.mtv.fi/sport/mm2016/uuti...887144?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

Wrotes how year ago Laine wasn't good enough to play at Mestis playoffs, 2nd level league and just 1 year later he was selected the MVP in Liiga playoffs, that shows you the development he has been able to make and makes you wonder how much he can still develop, and how much does that 7 months difference mean.

The thing you ignore in your post is that skating is Laines biggest weakness right now, but we know already,
-He had a knee injury which hold him down last year and now had a healthy offseason,
-He has the best skating coaches in Finland you could get, Barkovs skating has improved so much, it's gone from weakness to strenght, and he really had 1 offseason to train with same guys Laine will,
-Laine works with strength coach that trains with our NHL players, they know where their focus will be and he has said Laine is still very raw physically and has ton of room to improve.

So he has not weaknesses and any weaknesses he has will be overcome? Correct?
 

skillhockey

Registered User
Feb 26, 2013
1,839
26
The weaknesses thing is going way overboard. Laine only weak first few steps. Matthews none. Both can work with strength which should be obvious.

Laine isn't one-dimensional, just saw interview of his coach today. He can defend, pass, do about anything. People like to pick on shooters, well if you got killer shot, you use it. He is passing when he sees no opening, can be seen in this tournament too.
 

BB88

Registered User
Jan 19, 2015
40,796
20,390
So he has not weaknesses and any weaknesses he has will be overcome? Correct?

Sure he will have weaknesses, just like Matthews, but they won't be huge weaknesses.
These 2 are considered as franchise prospects, and Laine the best winger prospect since?
So it tells you that these 2 are quite alright and don't have that many real issues in their game.

Skating is a good issue to have right now, and Laine isn't a bad skater, he's a good, strong skater, it's just not a strenght for him.
Rather have that than lack of IQ/skill.
A year ago Laine couldn't keep up with 2nd level players and 1 year later he is playing at the Worlds and won MVP in Liiga playoffs, I wouldn't bet against him.
Laine wants to be the best and is willing to work for it.
 

Lonny Bohonos

Registered User
Apr 4, 2010
15,645
2,060
Middle East
The weaknesses thing is going way overboard. Laine only weak first few steps. Matthews none. Both can work with strength which should be obvious.

Laine isn't one-dimensional, just saw interview of his coach today. He can defend, pass, do about anything. People like to pick on shooters, well if you got killer shot, you use it. He is passing when he sees no opening, can be seen in this tournament too.
Its not and is wholely relevant to forecasting a players potential and also when comparing which is what this thread is about.

Ovi he is one of the best shooters of all time and setting himself up to be one of the very top gets his weaknesses pointed out all the time.
 
Last edited:

Face Of Bear

Registered User
Jul 30, 2012
2,029
1,161
Laine will have an impact similar to that of Taylor Hall imo. Racks up the points but not enough overall impact on the game to make a bad team good.
 

psycho_dad*

Registered User
Jul 14, 2003
4,814
10
Saint John, N.B
Visit site
Pulju might become best of them :D

He is insane skater with amazing glide.

Yeah he has the raw skills and once he grows into that body and gets comfortable, his ceiling is very high.

He did beat Laine in a skating competition but it wasn't by a lot. Speaks more about Laine's skating which has been ridiculed by some here because it looks clumsy. Apparently it still gets him places quite fast.
 

Future

Registered User
Feb 8, 2011
10,705
3,506
Ontario
This thread has gone full bonkers. I can't believe people are saying that the player that is equally skilled with a great complete game has a lower ceiling while the other player that is equally skilled but has noticeable weaknesses is just raw and has a higher ceiling. It doesn't work that way. Could Laine improve those weaknesses? Sure he could! But there are many players in the NHL that are drafted with the same question marks and never improve. Even if Laine does improve a lot in those areas (which I think he will), chances are Matthews will always be significantly better in those areas.

Never seen someone penalized for having a complete game before :laugh:
 

LeafingTheWay

Registered User
May 31, 2014
6,726
1,855
You made me dig into the numbers to calculate Relative Corsi Against and Relative Corsi For, for players on Laine's team and you are still wrong (even more that I expected)

-|CF/60|CA/60|CF/60 RelTeam|CA/60 RelTeam
Patrik Laine|40.17|35.19|1.41|-6.29
Team | 38.75 | 41.47 | - | -

CF/60=higher is better. CA/60=lower is better.

So much for the "Laine sucks defensively" narrative. As you can see Laine has amazing shot suppression numbers. There's one other player on his team with > 15 games that allows fewer corsi events against/60 than Laine does. This should show you to not blindly believe or spew a narrative.

All numbers derived from data that's available here http://liiga.fi/tilastot/2015-2016/...player_stats=enhanced&sort=Nimi#stats-wrapper

Jheeze, I didn't realize they tracked numbers in that league. That's quite incredible then. Of course, I should probably watch a LOT more games but I take back what I said. I was going off the narrative from a few scouts and hockey twitter. Thanks !
 

Cotton

Registered User
May 13, 2013
9,120
5,611
Sure he will have weaknesses, just like Matthews, but they won't be huge weaknesses.
These 2 are considered as franchise prospects, and Laine the best winger prospect since?
So it tells you that these 2 are quite alright and don't have that many real issues in their game.

Skating is a good issue to have right now, and Laine isn't a bad skater, he's a good, strong skater, it's just not a strenght for him.
Rather have that than lack of IQ/skill.
A year ago Laine couldn't keep up with 2nd level players and 1 year later he is playing at the Worlds and won MVP in Liiga playoffs, I wouldn't bet against him.
Laine wants to be the best and is willing to work for it.

Where was it reported that Laine was a franchise level talent? Link?
 

The Winter Soldier

Registered User
Apr 4, 2011
70,803
21,006
I said this before the Finland and USA game. I don't see anything in the past couple of days to change my mind on this thinking. We have some important games coming up. It's going to be fun to see how both players play in single elimination games. So I am going to say this a 2nd time as I think it bares repeating.

You can quote this post for the future. Any team that gets either Laine or Matthews can't miss with either pick. Both will be great picks. It's really that simple.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=118060743&postcount=239
 

psycho_dad*

Registered User
Jul 14, 2003
4,814
10
Saint John, N.B
Visit site
Laine fanbois are like:

"Laine is better than Pulju because even though Pulju hasmore raw potential Laine is already proving it."

One doesn't need to be a Laine "fanboi" to know he is better than Pulju right now. I like them both a lot and do not know what the future holds but right at this moment in time it's not open to question. I watched a lot of games from both this season, in Liiga regular season, playoffs (watched their whole head to head series), WJC etc. Team Finland agreed with this assessment, that's why Laine is in the team and Pulju is not.

People who have such context will agree that Laine is the better player right now. People who have absolutely no context and started appearing in this thread since Toronto announced that it's Matthews or bust...those are the people you should question. They have no clue, their motive is just to push Laine down to pump the tires of Matthews. As if that made a damn difference on how those two will develop and end up. Those are the people you should ignore. They don't know what they are talking about and often it shows as completely incorrect statements that are provided with false authority and some bravado.

Plus seemingly all of Laines weaknesses which he has few of are easily fixable.

Yeah, skating is very fixable and usually there is huge development from early years. Barkov improved big time in just one summer, Lehtera was a horrible skater early on but not so surprisingly it improved over time. It's a common thing for large players. A lot of you guys are underrating Laine's skating though, it's clunky looking at times, but it's pretty effective already.

I've seen young Chara in world championships, it looked like he could not skate at all and you'd constantly wonder if he was going to just tip over and not be able to get up. He looked like a praying mantis. His skating improved and he became a complete rock of a defenseman and good on his skates for his size.

So really he will be the best player ever. Better than his apparent comparable Lemieux.

It's not impossible even though it is very unlikely. Mario was the best, and Laine has a long way to go to reach Marios peak. But as a prospect he does look like one who could become one of the best ever. It all depends on how he develops etc. The list of "best ever" is not set in stone, it's not ridiculous to think that someone will eventually make that list because without a doubt someone will.
 

Lonny Bohonos

Registered User
Apr 4, 2010
15,645
2,060
Middle East
The people hyping Matthews don't see how he is being overhyped and only believe that Laine is being overhyped.

Still doesnt explain it.

I would agree if for example people were seriously comparing Matthews to Crosby as people compare Laine to Ovi.

As I said before I didnt get the hype for Matthews but after watching him recently I can understand why for several years hes been touted as number one.
 

Cotton

Registered User
May 13, 2013
9,120
5,611
You need links for that?

Do you watch games?

Indeed I do, which is why I find posters like you so entertaining. But the overhyping of Laine should at least be backed up. Matthews is the BPA, he is the clear #1 pick, he has been called An Eichel-level talent, he has been projected to be a franchise talent and all of this is easily accessible online. So when Laine fanboys want to make a claim in order to pump-his-tires while also devaluing AM to his level they should back it up by legit sources, no?
 

Lonny Bohonos

Registered User
Apr 4, 2010
15,645
2,060
Middle East
One doesn't need to be a Laine "fanboi" to know he is better than Pulju right now. I like them both a lot and do not know what the future holds but right at this moment in time it's not open to question. I watched a lot of games from both this season, in Liiga regular season, playoffs (watched their whole head to head series), WJC etc. Team Finland agreed with this assessment, that's why Laine is in the team and Pulju is not.

People who have such context will agree that Laine is the better player right now. People who have absolutely no context and started appearing in this thread since Toronto announced that it's Matthews or bust...those are the people you should question. They have no clue, their motive is just to push Laine down to pump the tires of Matthews. As if that made a damn difference on how those two will develop and end up. Those are the people you should ignore. They don't know what they are talking about and often it shows as completely incorrect statements that are provided with false authority and some bravado.



Yeah, skating is very fixable and usually there is huge development from early years. Barkov improved big time in just one summer, Lehtera was a horrible skater early on but not so surprisingly it improved over time. It's a common thing for large players. A lot of you guys are underrating Laine's skating though, it's clunky looking at times, but it's pretty effective already.

I've seen young Chara in world championships, it looked like he could not skate at all and you'd constantly wonder if he was going to just tip over and not be able to get up. He looked like a praying mantis. His skating improved and he became a complete rock of a defenseman and good on his skates for his size.



It's not impossible even though it is very unlikely. Mario was the best, and Laine has a long way to go to reach Marios peak. But as a prospect he does look like one who could become one of the best ever. It all depends on how he develops etc. The list of "best ever" is not set in stone, it's not ridiculous to think that someone will eventually make that list because without a doubt someone will.
I think you missed my point. I think at this moment Laine is playing better than Pulju.

But really my point was people use the raw potential argument when it suits them for Laine.

And one the best ever? Please.

If that was the case he'd be going first since Matthews is not near the best ever level.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->