ATD2018 - Draft Thread 3

[ResilientBeast]

We can’t underestimate the importance of goaltending in the ATD, but at the same time considering we’re only 24 teams I don’t think it’s a huge deal.

There are obvious tiers, but when you think about it we’re all going to be playing top 25 goaltenders of all-time.

RB will have to gameplan against playing superior goaltending each time, but it’s not like he’ll have Andre Racicot back there. Sorry if anyone was planning on taking him..

Besides having an excellent team you have an excellent opinion

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

That just immediately puts you at a disadvantage. Unfortunately the results of the ATD haven't necessarily lived up to the way real life works, in that in real life, there generally haven't been many Stanley Cup winners who didn't have at least above average goaltending. However, in real life, they also don't dump all the players into a pool and have a snaking draft to make teams.

Again.. we'll see how it goes. I think this conversation has run its course for the time being.

In real life, the worst teams don't have HHOF goaltenders like in the ATD. Despite drafting a top 10 goalie, I do realize that the smaller the draft, the smaller the gap between the best and worst goaltenders becomes.

 

[Claude The Fraud]

Claude finally gets his goalie!

Better now than in round 25!

 

[jarek]

We can’t underestimate the importance of goaltending in the ATD, but at the same time considering we’re only 24 teams I don’t think it’s a huge deal.

There are obvious tiers, but when you think about it we’re all going to be playing top 25 goaltenders of all-time.

RB will have to gameplan against playing superior goaltending each time, but it’s not like he’ll have Andre Racicot back there. Sorry if anyone was planning on taking him..

HF18, you're going to have to accept the idea that the worst goaltender in this league is pretty much comparable to Ryan Miller or Jacob Markstrom in real life. These things work on a relative scale. Yes, these guys are all top-24 goalies of all time, but they are also facing far superior lineups on a nightly basis.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Here's a hypothetical.

We have an 8 team ATD: How disadvantaged do you think the team that has Tretiak should be compared to the team with Roy?

Because in an 8 team league Tretiak is "below average"

We have a 4 Team ATD: How disadvantage do you think the team that has Hall should be compared to Roy?

Because in a 4 team league Hall is "below average"

This is the issue with saying they are below average so you're automatically behind

 

[jarek]

Here's a hypothetical.

We have an 8 team ATD: How disadvantaged do you think the team that has Tretiak should be compared to the team with Roy?

Because in an 8 team league Tretiak is "below average"

We have a 4 Team ATD: How disadvantage do you think the team that has Hall should be compared to Roy?

Because in a 4 team league Hall is "below average"

This is the issue with saying they are below average so you're automatically behind

Relatively speaking, it's all going to shake out the same way in the end.. again, because these goalies are going to be facing far superior lineups than usual.

In fact, the smaller the draft gets, the more important I think goaltending becomes, because the teams in front of them start to blend together to the point where they are indistinguishable, so of course I will lean towards the guy who is more likely to stop 1 extra shot.

 

[BenchBrawl]

That's only if you take them numerically.If you work in tiers, the disadvantage is just relative to tiers.If it's a 3 teams league, then arguably no team has below-average goaltending.If you have 7 teams, then the team with Dryden has below-average goaltender.

 

[BenchBrawl]

In other news, reading some Ottawa game summaries from the 1920s, I came away impressed with Benedict, and surprisingly, Broadbent and Denneny (in the latter case, this contrasts with overpass' experience when he did the same.Most likely we red different years).

I'd say the same and then some for the Boucher-Gerard pairing, but since I have them I'll just continue a more throughout investigation.My impression by now is that all things considered, including longevity together, this is one of the greatest pairing in hockey history.

 

[jarek]

Would be interesting to see what you've found.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Would be interesting to see what you've found.

I just started with the Ottawa Citizen, most likely already covered by others.Then Ill fill in the gaps using the BanQ (and other sources), and try to at least get all the game summaries from their overlap, when they were together.

What I have now is a ''feel'' for the value of the pairing, and it was a great one.

 

[jarek]

I just started with the Ottawa Citizen, most likely already covered by others.Then Ill fill in the gaps using the BanQ, and try to at least get all the game summaries from their overlap, when they were together.

What I have now is a ''feel'' for the value of the pairing, and it was a great one.

Well I meant what you found for Denneny.

 

[ImporterExporter]

We're looking a situation completely different from real life, for the most part every goalie taken was at his time a top 3ish goalie.

And if goaltending was that important Grant Fuhr wouldn't be the winningest goaltending in ATD.

Funny the greatest money goalies of all time in real life never win in the ATD. I don't know why I (or anyone else) ever bother drafting a top 5-10 goalie in this. It's become f***ing pointless because too many people play the averages and toss goalies aside as a distant 4th among positions.

Which is comical because it hasn't really been until recently that "average" goalies became a more constant in winning Stanley Cups. Look at the O6 era and tell me the 5th or 6th best starting goalie in the league won a bunch of titles. Didn't happen. Didn't happen in the 70's either, when you'd have to go to the 14th or 15th best goalie in the league, or the 80's when Billy Smith and Grant Fuhr were winning titles, and certainly weren't in the bottom tier of NHL starting goalies.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Funny the greatest money goalies of all time in real life never win in the ATD. I don't know why I (or anyone else) ever bother drafting a top 5-10 goalie in this. It's become ****ing pointless because too many people play the averages and toss goalies aside as a distant 4th among positions.

Which is comical because it hasn't really been until recently that "average" goalies became a more constant in winning Stanley Cups. Look at the O6 era and tell me the 5th or 6th best starting goalie in the league won a bunch of titles. Didn't happen. Didn't happen in the 70's either, when you'd have to go to the 14th or 15th best goalie in the league, or the 80's when Billy Smith and Grant Fuhr were winning titles, and certainly weren't in the bottom tier of NHL starting goalies.

Maybe Roy never won because... most players never won? Not because Roy never won that this automatically means top goalies can't win.In the end, only one team wins every year.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Well I meant what you found for Denneny.

Nothing in particular, he just seemed to have many great games.It's more a general evaluation than one or two golden quotes.

 

[ImporterExporter]

At the end of the day, I've voted for teams with goal tending advantages and vice versa. I'm not saying RB's team can't win with whoever he ends up with. His skaters are very strong, and will be among the top 3-4 teams IMO. It's just sad to see so many people treat goalies as if they're like the end of a really bad novel. By the time you get there, you just don't care....

 

[ImporterExporter]

Maybe Roy never won because... most players never won? Not because Roy never won that this automatically means top goalies can't win.In the end, only one team wins every year.

You're missing the point. The point is that in the ATD, why bother drafting a top 10 goalie. It's been proven pointless time and time again, outside of maybe 2 occasions? You're simply better off waiting until the bottom tier of goalies starts going and grab one then. Because the skater you got earlier in the draft is a far bigger difference maker. Just pointing out how it's gone.

 

[rmartin65]

Everyone views goalies differently, just like they view a coach's role differently. I think, by and large, the best teams have been winning the ATD. Look at the big picture, everyone. Correlation does not equal causation.

 

[jarek]

I think it was Sturminator also that said perhaps the best goalies haven't won because we simply haven't had enough ATDs to "even things out", so to speak. If you have 100,000 ATDs, I think you'll eventually reach a largely even distribution of winning players. There will be some that win more often and some that win less, and I think more than anything we can attribute that to the meta value of those picks. Scotty Bowman is almost always bad value because he almost always goes so soon before other coaches, etc.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think it was Sturminator also that said perhaps the best goalies haven't won because we simply haven't had enough ATDs to "even things out", so to speak. If you have 100,000 ATDs, I think you'll eventually reach a largely even distribution of winning players. There will be some that win more often and some that win less, and I think more than anything we can attribute that to the meta value of those picks. Scotty Bowman is almost always bad value because he almost always goes so soon before other coaches, etc.

Look where Hasek and Roy were drafted compared to Sawchuk and tell me they were good value. I mean, that's a pretty extreme example because Sawchuk fell so far. But still, teams that draft goalies in the first 2-3 rounds put themselves at a small disadvantage IMO.

Don't we talk about this every year?

 

[jarek]

Look where Hasek and Roy were drafted compared to Sawchuk and tell me they were good value. I mean, that's a pretty extreme example because Sawchuk fell so far. But still, teams that draft goalies in the first 2-3 rounds put themselves at a small disadvantage IMO.

Don't we talk about this every year?

Well that just proves my point.

OK so it was suggested to me to post the following statement that I made here for discussion:

The reason why comparing with the HOH list works for goaltenders is because for the most part, it's a fairly solitary position. You sit there and you either stop the puck or you don't.. what's going on around you in many cases largely doesn't matter. The only time there is real interactivity between the goalie and other players, aside from when a shot gets made, is when there's traffic in front of him, but for the most part, this is going to affect most goalies equally, so I don't think it's that important.

Have at it.

 

[ResilientBeast]

OK so it was suggested to me to post the following statement that I made here for discussion:



Have at it.

This was said in a pm to me and I vehemently disagree

It's reducing goalies down to more and more difficult shooter tutors

 

[BenchBrawl]

My favorite teams are usually the ones without major holes, but with at least one major strenght too.

This isn't a clear rule, exceptions can exist.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Look where Hasek and Roy were drafted compared to Sawchuk and tell me they were good value. I mean, that's a pretty extreme example because Sawchuk fell so far. But still, teams that draft goalies in the first 2-3 rounds put themselves at a small disadvantage IMO.

Don't we talk about this every year?

Well, I only made the leap to get Roy because at 24 he's by far the best player on the board. People get so hung up on value, which is sort of ironic because I feel like I lucked out on a handful of guys and got great value. But at the end of the day Roy is most people's best goalie of all time. He is the greatest playoff goalie ever and top 3-4 playoff performer ever, regardless of position (for the vast majority). And it's not like his regular season resume is anything to gloss over.

I'm sorry but I'll never change my thinking that Guy Lafleur (one pick after Roy) is more important to a roster. I could have traded up for Brad Park. Who's what, a "slightly better than average #1" here. Of course I could have sat tight, missed Plante and just rode the wave.

Personally I have a bigger gap than most from Roy to Sawchuk. He's not exactly stellar after 1955 and his playoff record is nowhere near Roy's (HoH top 40 playoff performers is a good place to start to get a feel for what I mean), IMO.

And that's what makes this enjoyable (and slightly frustrating). If everyone thought alike this endeavor would be pretty pointless.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Also, thanks to the mod(s) who helped update the OP today!

 

[Stoneberg]

Halifax selects Joe Klukay, W.