ATD2018 - Draft Thread 3

[Hawkey Town 18]

Congrats @rmartin65 ! I remember you being an impressive rookie in your first ATD (I wanna say 2 years ago), and thinking you would quickly develop into a strong GM...you sure haven't disappointed.

 

[VanIslander]

Claude Giroux as a LW on an all-time great time.

**** the universe. Thanos rules.

The end is here.

 

[jarek]

Claude Giroux as a LW on an all-time great time.

**** the universe. Thanos rules.

The end is here.

On a 2nd line. Acting as a physical presence to get Nels Stewart the puck.

 

[VanIslander]

On a 2nd line. Acting as a physical presence to get Nels Stewart the puck.

LOL.. yeah, as better than a real LWer like... undrafted Max Pacioretty, Filip Forsberg, Slava Kozlov.

Heck, he drafted Claude Giroux in the FRIGGIN' 20th round and put him on his top 6 forwards and has had only applauds and votes for it or don't give a **** votes.




The Dusters select 6'2, 208 lbs Leon Draisaitl, the 10-year NHLer who was a 1st and 2nd team all-star, the former with a Hart, Art Ross, Ted Lindsay, then setting an NHL record 5-game Stanley Cup playoffs streak of 3 or more points, leading the playoffs in assists one year, in playoff goals the next. The original Human Apple Tree led the league in assists once, twice leading the NHL in powerplay goals, his 32 pp markers only 2 shy of the NHL record; he broke the Oilers career powerplay goal record, surpassing Anderson and Gretzky. He has the most takeaways in the NHL over a 7-year span, not including his current season's higher-paced 66 in 55 games (certainly to remain top 10 for the season if he never plays another game). In his first of three 50-goal seasons he led the NHL in shooting percentage, scoring on over 21% of his shots, following that up with 40 game-winning goals over a 4-year span, twice as league leader.

Big, strong, offensively gifted. Picks teams apart on the PP. Plays at his own pace. Size provides him advantage to shield defenders and use his length as an advantage. Fantastic puck touch.

Greatness is consistency. So, I'm preparing for next season like I do for any other season and to me it's important to do it all over again. You know, show people that I'm capable of being at the top of my game every single year every night.

"He’s not just out there playing. He’s a presence,” defenceman Mattias Ekholm said. “He’s not happy just to play. He’s emotionally involved."

"He’s such a hard player to play against not only because of his skill and his offensive mindset, but it’s his physicality, too. He’s a heavy guy and strong. He makes his presence known out there.”

“The definition of what the modern-day power forward looks like — or should look like. When he’s at his very best, his 200-foot game is so strong, because he’s hard to contain in all three zones.

“In the offensive zone, when he’s holding people off, making plays in tight spaces. In the neutral zone, when he’s coming through with speed, and making good decisions with the puck. And in the defensive zone, when he really leans on someone, he’s a big man.”

Goals
2018-19 NHL 50 (2nd)
2019-20 NHL 43 (4th)
2020-21 NHL 31 (4th)
2021-22 NHL 55 (2nd)
2022-23 NHL 52 (4th)
Assists
2016-17 NHL 48 (9th)
2019-20 NHL 67 (1st)
2020-21 NHL 53 (2nd)
2022-23 NHL 76 (3rd)
Points
2016-17 NHL 77 (8th)
2018-19 NHL 105 (4th)
2019-20 NHL 110 (1st)
2020-21 NHL 84 (2nd)
2021-22 NHL 110 (4th)
2022-23 NHL 128 (2nd)

Howie Morenz	102.2
Andy Bathgate	101.1
Leon Draisaitl	98.5
Alex Ovechkin	98.4
Joe Sakic	97.7

Note: The list is 16th through 20th all time (calculated by Hockey Outsider, updated 2023).
Note: in terms of Vs.X 7-year span GOALS, Draisaitl is tied with Keith Tkachuk, just behind Cecil Dillon and Joe Sakic.

 

[ImporterExporter]

On a 2nd line. Acting as a physical presence to get Nels Stewart the puck.

That'd be Broadbent but what does it matter now? Your negativity this year was cringe worthy. If you have such a negative time doing this just stop playing. Not a hard concept.

You guys voted for an inferior roster because a few guys didn't fit Gorman's style. It's that simple. Ignore the actual talent and dominant clutch roster Pittsburgh possessed that was built to own teams in a best of 7 series. The Kenroa team I beat in the conference finals was better than NY. Gretzky and Roy losing in a game 7 match against Mikita and Parent? Ok....The most massive gap in the entire series was in net, and I still lost. He didn't have better forwards, his defense was FAR worse than Toronto and no better than Kenora, teams I whipped handily.

The only thing people (2-3) attacked me on was this mythical, couple of guys (important ones) didn't fit Tommy Gorman like a glove, so f*** the rest of it. You lose. If 10% of your roster "not fitting the coach" is enough for you to lose even though the roster itself is superior (especially in the key areas that matter in a best of 7 type series), then I don't know what to do moving forward. Nobody said my F's weren't better. That wasn't debated. Nobody said his defense was massively better or that I had a monumental advantage in net. Nobody had a problem with any of that. You guys literally voted for NY because you couldn't see Gretzky and Stewart doing anything in Gorman's system. Fair enough I guess.

[MOD]

 

[jarek]

[MOD]

I'm going to be honest.. you lost the ATD when you put Giroux on that line. I don't understand why you did that.

I thought the Stewart - Getzlaf - Broadbent line, in spite of Broadbent being horribly under-qualified for second line duty, was a pretty effective use of Nels. I don't understand why you broke it up. Leaving Giroux as a 4th liner/PP specialist was a great move.

I personally wish I had taken Giroux. I had plenty of chances to do so. If I had known Nedomansky would be seen as poorly on the PP as it seems like he was, I would have jumped at that opportunity.

Personally I think Nels is about as close to useless as a center as it gets. I feel his skillset is far more suited as a winger. I feel the same way about Nedomansky, which is one of the main reasons I put him on the W.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I lost the ATD because Giroux, coming off 102 point season on LW, a winger that is incredibly slanted towards playmaking, feeding an all time great goal scorer and slot presence, lost me the ATD?

You voted against me because of that???

People complained about Stewart being on the LW more than Giroux being there. That much was evident. Moving Stewart back to C was the right move considering Stewart was at his best at C. Had his real life partner in Broadbent next to him, like they did in the 26 Cup winning run.

Whatever, NY had a fine roster, but it was not superior to mine. You literally just admitted as much saying you voted against me because of a difference in opinion based on lineup construction....

 

[ImporterExporter]

I know who voted against me and why....it's not rocket science. And it wasn't because my team wasn't better. Nobody cares about Tarasov never coaching North American players. Nobody wants to have that debate. But holy shit, Wayne Gretztky would be shunned for being an offensive only player under Gorman.....utterly hilarious. One thing actually never happened in real life (Tarasov proving he could coach North American hockey players).....the other, is pure speculation on your part (plus Dreak/TDMM).

But i lost because of the above....and Giriox being on the LW, next to an elite goal scorer and capable glue guy on the RW....it's all good man. I wasn't surprised after the way you and Dreak battered me in the game thread.

And as a few of those guys above pointed out....actually showing up and debating for your roster doesn't get you anywhere anymore apparently.

The ATD needs a facelift and as you've personally said, possibly a schedule change. But then again, I don't think it really matters. People are going to vote like spoiled brats (Van) or not vote at all (never got more than half the drafts votes).

 

[ImporterExporter]

Bernie f***ing Parent over Roy in a 7 game series....when the rest of the match up seriously wasn't much of a gap at all, in either direction....

Edmonton should have won the ATD this year easily then. His skaters were by far the best group, and if we're just going to continue throwing ATD winners up there that have sub par to terrible goalies, he was the easy pick for me.

 

[VanIslander]

Nobody cares about Tarasov never coaching North American players. Nobody wants to have that debate.

Yet you have no problem voting for him over Tarasov, a coach who actually schooled the NHL's best time and again and again.

Oh, you actually thought Tarasov wasn't better than Tikhonov in terms of coaching the world's best players at the top level of competition? Either you are extremely North American biased or else were temporarily hoarse-throated in the conference final round.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Yet you have no problem voting for him over Tarasov, a coach who actually schooled the NHL's best time and again and again.

Oh, you actually thought Tarasov wasn't better than Tikhonov in terms of coaching the world's best players at the top level of competition? Either you are extremely North American biased or else were temporarily hoarse-throated in the conference final round.

He schooled NHL's best time and time again? Ok, I'll wait for that mountain of evidence. Don't make me wait to long though. And again, it has nothing to do with Tarasov growing up in THE anti West nation on earth and actually never coaching players who were brought up in entirely different circumstances and under different guidance regarding hockey......that doesn't matter right?

[MOD]

 

[ImporterExporter]

Nice private message Van....want me to share that one as well? You literally just admitted you voted against me because you "don't like me" hold grudges. Thanks for being mature about everything.

 

[VanIslander]

He schooled NHL's best time and time again? Ok, I'll wait for that mountain of evidence.

Are you actually questioning Tikhonov's resume against NHLers?

[MOD]

 

[ImporterExporter]

Are you actually questioning Tikhonov's resume against NHLers?

If so, then it is YOU who is intoxicated. Otherwise, please re-read my post.

Tikhonov doesn't have a thing to do with this match up. Why are you bringing him up?

I am so far and away correct in pointing out Tarasov is a bigger problem with a roster that is made up mostly of North American players than Gorman, who actually coached and built dynasties with NHL and North American players. Tarasov NEVER coached NHL players. EVER. But Dreak didn't bring that up. TDMM didn't bring that up. YOU didn't bring that up.

Tarasov literally spent a career beating up domestic hockey that was primitive at best. He didn't have to face NHL rosters. He didn't have to face European teams that were remotely close in terms of talent or develpment. Yet, despite allllllll that, Gorman and Gretzky/Stewart WAS the big problem....OK. And i should trust people to actually hold to voting for the actual superior team 10 times outta 10....

[MOD]

 

[ImporterExporter]

So really for NY to have a legitimate claim to winning they'd have to have been ahead in coaching, forwards and defense.

Coaching? Sure, despite the fact I brought up valid points about Tarasov fitting North American players....give them the edge, doesn't matter to me.....nobody can say with a straight face that NY's roster fit Tarasov because Tarasov NEVER coached North American players.....comical.

Forwards? Not a chance NY is superior. Nobody brought it up because nobody believes that. Equal? OK, fine, but that's a stretch for most. And again the few people who were vocal didn't say a thing about the forward comparisons. If there was an issue with my placement, somebody would have brought up a stink, like they did with the coaching style angle...

Defense? Yep, NY is better because of the top pairing. But what's funny is I crushed Toronto who had the best 6 man D in the draft. Beat Kenora who's D was every bit as good as NY's. NY's defense was probably 3rd best of any team I beat along the way. At best, a small gap for NY. Nobody argued otherwise.

Goalie? Biggest advantage in the entire match up. By a mile in my direction.

Then factor in the Pitt roster is literally built to win big games. It's probably one of the best ATD rosters ever built when looking at playoff performers. I get it, that's not the end all be all, but my God, was it lopsided in my favor there. It's not like we lacked in regular season resumes either so.....

 

[jarek]

I didn't vote just fyi. My give a shit level disappeared as soon as the playoffs started.

Anyways Giroux resume at center is far better than at wing. And if you take it as a percentage of his entire career that is much higher than Stewart's. Also Giroux is about as much of a pp specialist as it gets here. As a 4th line pP specialist that's fine. But to rely on him for big minutes on the same line as a guy who brings almost nothing except physicality and defense just makes no sense.

I can add more later but posting in phone sux

 

[rmartin65]

Stay classy, everyone. You guys wonder why participation drops year after year, especially in the playoffs... well... this is why. You all care more about winning than just talking about hockey. Shoot, that's why I crapped out on our series, IE. You got all defensive about your team and started making intellectually dishonest arguments, and I decided I wasn't going to play that game.

And I am not just targeting you here, IE. VanI's comments were unnecessary, as were jarek's. If I really did win because people voted against you on a personal level, instead of for my team over yours... well, it's now an empty victory, and one that really cheapens the idea of the ATD, in my opinion.

In any case, I'm done. It''s been a blast these 3 (4 if you count my season as an A. GM) years, and I have learned more about the history of hockey than I ever thought I would. But I have no interest being involved in a game where people act like children because they don't like someone, or because they take the game too seriously and can't handle it when people disagree with them.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Apparently Van didn't vote either so who the heck knows.....honestly, I'd rather people voted. Seeing such crappy turnouts bothers me. Voting doesn't take near the effort coming into multiple threads does and debating different aspects to different series....

@jarek No offense man, you gave enough of a shit to show up in the finals thread numerous times? I mean if people are going to debate then at least take 30 seconds to send a vote in....even if it's against me.

I don't think the ATD is going to survive long term. Not enough people care. This year was hugely evident. The people who argued on their teams behalf got kicked out and there were numerous series that people didn't even show up for......sad.

 

[ImporterExporter]

@rmartin65 As I said to Dreak, if you guys think I was making dishonest comments I have no clue what to say....especially given the history here and some of the crap that we've all seen. I stretched a few areas, yes, but as far as going across a "moral line"....I never did that. Nowhere did I over represent my team to a point where it was absurd. Yes, I didn't see as big a problem with the style of coaching vs roster as you and a few others did. Yes, I think Foyston and Broadbent were great fore checkers. Yes, I think Stapleton-White was a better 2nd pairing than yours for multiple reasons, etc, etc. None of that is intellectually dishonest. It's a matter of opinion.

 

[jarek]

Let's do the atd every 2 years. I think that would help a lot.

IE, I don't make decisions based on my opinion of a person. Everything I said in your series and otherwise were honest thoughts. Maybe they weren't objectively correct I can't say one way or another but nothing I said was motivated by a personal opinion about you.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I know that @jarek

I think I was taken a back by Dreak spewing the nonsense about intellectual dishonesty more than anything. I don't do that. Yes, I'll vigorously fight for my team and I do, I'm sure stretch the limit on an issue here or there, but I'll never go out of my way to make absurd claims. If I ever did that, it was probably in my 1st or 2nd year when I didn't know any better haha.

I just hate where society has gone overall in terms of differences of opinions. I'm not singling out the left, but they always scream about diversity (and I've got zero issue with that being a big area of debate going forward) but when it comes to diversity of opinion, they are uber quick to throw out racism, bigotry, hate mongering, intellectual dishonest, etc, etc. I hate it. Sometimes, people just don't agree with one another. It's that simple. Nothing racist or bigoted about it.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

On a 2nd line. Acting as a physical presence to get Nels Stewart the puck.

Claude Giroux, an all-time physical presence, lol.

 

[jarek]

Claude Giroux, an all-time physical presence, lol.

Like I said. Putting Stewart on the LW alongside Getzlaf and Broadbent, with Giroux dominating lower matchups seemed like a much better usage of those players. Getzlaf is far closer to that type of player Stewart needs to play with than Giroux is.

 

[Habsfan18]

Not sure if I’ll compete again next year. As a first timer, the draft was incredibly fun. Everything that followed was very disappointing. Interest dropped almost immediately - I’m guilty as well. Work and life got in the way and I just simply didn’t have the time for hour long posts debating my roster vs someone else’s.

But the immaturity and lack of class by a few members is not a good look. I was expecting so much more in terms of the amount of people voting and I suppose I was caught off guard by just how personal some take the debates on their rosters. This is a great exercise but it should all be in good fun, by passionate fans of the game’s history. Getting into childish bickering contests as grown ass men is just ridiculous. I’m all for healthy debates, but when the personal insults start all because someone dares to have a different opinion than someone else..that’s going to turn people away.

Anyways, the draft itself was a blast. If I don’t take part next year, I’ll surely be following along with at least that part. That’s all people seem to care about anyways, and maybe for good reason..

 

[Dreakmur]

I think I was taken a back by Dreak spewing the nonsense about intellectual dishonesty more than anything. I don't do that. Yes, I'll vigorously fight for my team and I do, I'm sure stretch the limit on an issue here or there, but I'll never go out of my way to make absurd claims.

Intellectual integrity, which means you hold other to a higher standard than yourself. You over-inflated a lot of your roster - not because of dishonesty, but because of excitement. I've been there too, especially when we went on the old discovery missions through the old Google news archives. There are still guys in the draft that go higher than they should because I rode one quote though an entire draft. Smokey Harris is one - I found a quote about a Smokey Harris being one of the best fighters in the league..... but it was a different guy in a separate league! Now, I didn't realize that until a future draft, but that's the one that really made me more critical of my own way of selling players. I try to look at my own team in a critical way and be honest about the weaknesses, which is tough since I'm biased.... it's my team, and it's the best one dammit !

I think too many players get free passes - some due to cannon, some due to false reputations, some just get an easy ride out of luck.