ATD10-AAA Lightning Round: China Sharks vs. Helsinki Huskies
- Thread starter VanIslander
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VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sunday only.
A one-day opening playoff round, the winner of which will take on the regular season leader in the next, full 8-team round, set to begin late Sunday, early Monday.
Everybody reflect a bit on this match-up, even if just remarking on a single team-on-team dynamic. Don't say who'll win, focus on advantages and disadvantages, opportunities and threats.
Votes and three stars to be submitted to me no earlier than 6pm eastern time tonight.
A one-day opening playoff round, the winner of which will take on the regular season leader in the next, full 8-team round, set to begin late Sunday, early Monday.
Everybody reflect a bit on this match-up, even if just remarking on a single team-on-team dynamic. Don't say who'll win, focus on advantages and disadvantages, opportunities and threats.
Votes and three stars to be submitted to me no earlier than 6pm eastern time tonight.
EagleBelfour
Registered User
Wow, extremely surprised to see those two teams at the bottom of the standing.
I'm not a big fan of the China Sharks defensive group, but that first line of Whitcroft, McGimsie and Blachford is one of the best if the draft, hands down. Peter Lindmark is a great goaltender for an AAA team.
When some teams in the ATD draft european heavily, we most of the time underrate them a little (just see some past Wisent ATD teams), so imagine when someone draft a throng of european players in the AAA drafts! I'll be the first to acknowledge that the Helsinki Huskies is a team I know few of their players. Bykov is definitely a star in a AAA draft, the defense is solid and a strong duo of goaltenders set the team pretty well. I would love to hear some arguments on the players selected by Triffy.
I'm not a big fan of the China Sharks defensive group, but that first line of Whitcroft, McGimsie and Blachford is one of the best if the draft, hands down. Peter Lindmark is a great goaltender for an AAA team.
When some teams in the ATD draft european heavily, we most of the time underrate them a little (just see some past Wisent ATD teams), so imagine when someone draft a throng of european players in the AAA drafts! I'll be the first to acknowledge that the Helsinki Huskies is a team I know few of their players. Bykov is definitely a star in a AAA draft, the defense is solid and a strong duo of goaltenders set the team pretty well. I would love to hear some arguments on the players selected by Triffy.
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Re-read my assassination then. Fifteen of the guys on that squad actually proved themselves against the highest level of competition.
Let me applaud Triffy for taking my advice and putting Warwick on that first line. Both teams have solid first lines. The Huskies have the best pivot clearly but the Sharks have better playmaking depth and size at center ice and ought to control play up the middle more at even strength, though the Huskies have a couple of good centermen defensively. A wash.
This series contains two-thirds of the touted best Tre Konor line of all time, the legendary ungdomskedjan (youth line), starring the Sharks third line right winger Pettersson and his longtime center Huskies Nilsson, the former bringing his play to the NHL but the latter dominating internationally, against Tumba.Both teams have question marks on second line left wing, the Sharks have Chamberlain, whom Hedberg wisely advised be moved down to the third for his relative lack of scoring, though now that it's playoff time he does have some NHL playoff scoring production and championship experience. The Huskies have Oksanen, who is so well known that the GM who drafted him didn't know at first which wing he played on! No advantage here.
I can't believe anyone can say with any confidence which second line centre-right wing combo will produce more in an all-time context, the young NHL centre with WHA star or one of the best Swedes and one of the best Czechs of a half century ago. In terms of assets, the Sharks bring more size to the line, but the passing and agility of the Huskies second line might be challenging to many a team, but with the great Swedish duo on the Sharks' third pairing, one has to expect them to be put out there often by Berenson to help nullify their old teammate from team Sweden. Advantage Sharks.
Don't expect China's third line wingers to get many great scoring opportunities when playing against the Helsinki third line wingers: Lund contained Rocket Richard and Peltonen I know is worldclass in checking with speed on the big ice surface, which Helsinki will certainly have for home games. Can the third line centre Helminen contain Mayasich? a true question mark.
The two potential superstars of the series are the Sharks Mayasich and the Huskies Makarov, both with such stratosphere upsides but with just as likely fall-flattedness: they simply are unproven against the best of their era. Period.
The Sharks' Dvorak is a legit #1 at this level given he stepped into the NHL after success as a second pairing guy on great seventies' Czechoslovakian teams and was voted his team's best defender as a NHL rookie. Injuries and starting late a career in North America ought to be factored in in determining his all-time worth. That said, the two best defensemen in this series may be on the Helsinki top pairing. The Soviet duo might just give the Sharks top line fits especially with a winger or two helping out from the Huskies good third and fourth line checkers. Advantage Huskies.
But is the Helsinki blueline deep enough to handle the multiple scoring lines of China? Mitchell might be overplayed in an all-time context and that third pairing behind him too is suspect. Advantage Sharks.
If there is a mismatch in this series it's definitely on special teams as the Huskies clearly have the better penalty killers and better playmaking pivots. Or so it seems. The Sharks have size to go to the net to create screens, deflections and get rebounds and it's unclear that aside from Mitchell and maybe Babinov whether the Helsinki defense can handle those attempts. No clear advantage here.
Goaltending is a battle of the proven versus the nearly proven, as Lindmark has three Canada Cups to his resume including a finals in '84. He also was Swedish league MVP between the years Mats Naslund and Patrick Sundstrom were. Martin is the more well known of the two over on this side of the pond, but he played pond hockey in comparison! Advantage Sharks.
If the Huskies are to win this series they need to work the bench, putting their excellent checkers on ice against the Sharks first and third lines especially, utilize their speed on transition, capitalize on turnovers they should be able to generate, have the top pairing play to their full potential, and be willing to take and draw penalties.
If the Sharks are to win this series they have got to ensure their blueline core plays it conservative against the great top two scoring line centers of Helsinki and clutch play from Stanley Cup playoff performer Lund and four-time PCHA star Riley. Their goalie will also have to be the team's number one penalty killer as their second unit will be challenged by strong perimeter play by Helsinki passing forwards and defensemen at the point.
I expect a very close series. Looking forward to some impressions and observations you guys have to make.
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VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Here's a fun thought experiment.
Assume contraction and have the teams from China and Helsinki combine and, say, split the difference in distance and play in Siberia:
THAT team would give any of the AAA others a run for their money.
Assume contraction and have the teams from China and Helsinki combine and, say, split the difference in distance and play in Siberia:
The Siberia Shark Huskies
coach: Red Berenson
Fred Whitcroft - Vyacheslav Bykov - Cecil Blachford
Jim Riley - Billy McGimsie - Serge Bernier
Murph Chamberlain - Pete Stemkowski - Pentti Lund
Ville Peltonen - John Mayasich - Ronald Pettersson
two of: Bohuslav Stastny, Nils Nilsson, Vlastimil Bubnik, Raimo Helminen
Sergei Babinov - Miroslav Dvorak
Tapio Levo - Risto Siltanen
Roland Stoltz - Lasse Bjorn
Nikolai Makarov
Peter Lindmark
Seth Martin
coach: Red Berenson
Fred Whitcroft - Vyacheslav Bykov - Cecil Blachford
Jim Riley - Billy McGimsie - Serge Bernier
Murph Chamberlain - Pete Stemkowski - Pentti Lund
Ville Peltonen - John Mayasich - Ronald Pettersson
two of: Bohuslav Stastny, Nils Nilsson, Vlastimil Bubnik, Raimo Helminen
Sergei Babinov - Miroslav Dvorak
Tapio Levo - Risto Siltanen
Roland Stoltz - Lasse Bjorn
Nikolai Makarov
Peter Lindmark
Seth Martin
THAT team would give any of the AAA others a run for their money.
I'm surprised to see my team in this situation. I thought I had a couple of players who were good enough as individuals to get my team safely to the playoffs. I'll try to introduce them to you guys more now.
I'll use your excellent post as a frame to my post, VanIslander.
When I was doing a quick line by line analysis yesterday, my first line got the most points of all the first lines. Bykov is the probably the best player in the draft. He should have been selected long ago. I've completed the 1st line with a former western star Jim Riley and Grant Warwick, who are solid scoring line wingers. Riley was four times an all-star in the PCHA. Warwick had a couple good seasons during the WWII but his production didn't drop sigificantly after it.
I would like to hear more about the Sharks' first line. I'm very unfamiliar with them and find it hard to see how they are equal to my first line.
I think most of you were underrating Nils Nilsson. He's one of those players on my team who I think should have been selected at least in the MLD. Him, Bykov, Babinov, Makarov and Bubnik.
Haha, this was probably deserved! I must say, though, that it's usually irrelevant in Finland which side you're playing on. You're nearly always listed as a forward or defenseman. Rarely you even see players listed as centers or wingers.
Oksanen proved to be the best player of his generation in Finland. He was the player even the opponents respected in the international circles. In 1970, I think, he attended the Canucks' training camp. Like many others, he didn't want to stay in Northern America and decided to return to Finland even though he could have stayed had he wanted.
I think you're trying to be politically correct here. I like Getzlaf a lot. He's one of my favorite players in the league today. He's a big man with exceptionally good hands. But he has less than three seasons as a pro under his belt. Nilsson and Tumba were the key players for Sweden when they won gold in 1957 and 1962.
Nilsson actually outscored Tumba in the 8 world championship tournaments they both played in. In 47 games, Nilsson scored 47 goals and added 17 assists, combining 64 points in total. Tumba scored 38 goals and added 22 assists (60 points) in 38 games. Nilsson also gathered more all-star selections in Swedish national league. All the all-star selections were from the time when Tumba was still going strong.
The right winger Bubnik is a bit of a question mark even in my eyes. The Czechs are always a mystery because there are little to no stats available about them. What I know, however, is that he was the idol of Vladimir Martinec. He was the last early Czechoslovakian great there was left. Malecek and Zabrodsky were taken in the MLD or ATD. Malecek was used as a first line center and rated as the third star of the MLD Final series. In the Best Czech Hockey players of the Century voting, Bubnik placed 6th, only behind Hasek, Jagr, Zabrodsky, Martinec and Hlinka. And I'm using Bubnik on my second line.
I think Nilsson-Bubnik duo should provide more than enough secondary scoring. And if you have any respect for Oksanen, the line should be one of the best second lines in the draft.
I'm extremely proud of my third line. It's easily the best two-way line of the Huskies. Unless I'm mistaken with Lund, they are not physical by any means. Instead, they are defensively reliable, consistent, hard working, discipline players with elite hockey sense. I won't be matching any lines. I don't think it's necessary for me. But the third line will be playing a lot when protecting a lead.
What you should know about Helminen is that he is a strong center. He is good at getting himself into a position where the defensemen can feed him the puck with a simple pass. And Helminen is world class at keeping the play alive. He's not the kind of player who wants to dump the puck to the corner. He'd rather make a playmaking pass to one of his workhorse wingers which is exactly what I want him to do because the wingers don't have the physicality needed to win the battels in the corners. My third line will be annoying to play against because they will be basing their game on smartness and puck possession and they will be able to capitalize on the chances they'll get.
I think this is true. Mayasich was probably the most interesting pick of the draft. But he wasn't even a top 5 scorer in the 1956 and 1960 Olympics he took part in. He's got potential for sure, but little proven success.
Makarov has plenty of success in the Soviet league. He's 5th best goal scorer among defensemen in the history of the league. He was an exceptional skater.
I still want to point out that Babinov was a great defenseman too. For about a decade, he was an important part of arguably the best defense group the Soviet Union had. He seemed to be the best Soviet defenseman in the Canada Cup game Thornton_19 uploaded.
I think my second pairing is good enough. For some reason you are underrating Mitchell. Even with his limited puck moving skills, he's easily deserving the spot next to good offensive d-man Tapio Levo.
But I agree that the Sharks have probably the best third pair of the draft. I actually think they are better than Kubina and Kronwall.
Siltanen is a player who I thought about drafting. An excellent offensive defenseman. But he's so small and a huge liability defensively. I wouldn't want him playing top pairing minutes for my team. Nummelin on my team is a similar player with less success in the NHL. But he's playing third pairing minutes and will be used mainly as a power play expert. I don't know about the rules, but in case shootouts are needed, Nummelin, among the players with at least 10 shootouts, currently has the highest career shooting percentage in the NHL with 80.
Mitchell will be asked to play a lot on penalty kill. But I have a discipline team. My team won't be sitting in the penalty box a lot. If my team somehow gets distracted and ends up sitting in the box more than the opponents, I agree my team will have troubles because most of my defensemen aren't used to playing a lot on penalty kill.
Seth Martin has 4 Best Goalie of the Tournament awards to his name. Only Holecek has more with five.
"Unable to win on the international stage with true amateurs, Canada turned to Father David Bauer's plan to have a true national team. The players would remain amateurs, unlike their Soviet counterparts, as players were enticed with room and board plus full scholarships at the University of British Columbia. Canada would be able to train a team for international competitions year round, but would rarely attract top talent.
One exception was Martin. A charter member of the International Hockey Hall of Fame, Martin would represent Canada in the IIHF World Championships in 1963, 1964, 1966 and 1967, winning bronze medals in four championships. In addition to his 1961 gold medal and best goaltender nod, Martin's trophy case also proudly notes his status as the best goalie at the 1963, 1964 and 1966 worlds."
http://internationalhockeylegends.blogspot.com/2006/05/smoke-eater-seth-martin.html
I'll use your excellent post as a frame to my post, VanIslander.
When I was doing a quick line by line analysis yesterday, my first line got the most points of all the first lines. Bykov is the probably the best player in the draft. He should have been selected long ago. I've completed the 1st line with a former western star Jim Riley and Grant Warwick, who are solid scoring line wingers. Riley was four times an all-star in the PCHA. Warwick had a couple good seasons during the WWII but his production didn't drop sigificantly after it.
I would like to hear more about the Sharks' first line. I'm very unfamiliar with them and find it hard to see how they are equal to my first line.
I think most of you were underrating Nils Nilsson. He's one of those players on my team who I think should have been selected at least in the MLD. Him, Bykov, Babinov, Makarov and Bubnik.
Haha, this was probably deserved! I must say, though, that it's usually irrelevant in Finland which side you're playing on. You're nearly always listed as a forward or defenseman. Rarely you even see players listed as centers or wingers.
Oksanen proved to be the best player of his generation in Finland. He was the player even the opponents respected in the international circles. In 1970, I think, he attended the Canucks' training camp. Like many others, he didn't want to stay in Northern America and decided to return to Finland even though he could have stayed had he wanted.
I think you're trying to be politically correct here. I like Getzlaf a lot. He's one of my favorite players in the league today. He's a big man with exceptionally good hands. But he has less than three seasons as a pro under his belt. Nilsson and Tumba were the key players for Sweden when they won gold in 1957 and 1962.
Nilsson actually outscored Tumba in the 8 world championship tournaments they both played in. In 47 games, Nilsson scored 47 goals and added 17 assists, combining 64 points in total. Tumba scored 38 goals and added 22 assists (60 points) in 38 games. Nilsson also gathered more all-star selections in Swedish national league. All the all-star selections were from the time when Tumba was still going strong.
The right winger Bubnik is a bit of a question mark even in my eyes. The Czechs are always a mystery because there are little to no stats available about them. What I know, however, is that he was the idol of Vladimir Martinec. He was the last early Czechoslovakian great there was left. Malecek and Zabrodsky were taken in the MLD or ATD. Malecek was used as a first line center and rated as the third star of the MLD Final series. In the Best Czech Hockey players of the Century voting, Bubnik placed 6th, only behind Hasek, Jagr, Zabrodsky, Martinec and Hlinka. And I'm using Bubnik on my second line.
I think Nilsson-Bubnik duo should provide more than enough secondary scoring. And if you have any respect for Oksanen, the line should be one of the best second lines in the draft.
I'm extremely proud of my third line. It's easily the best two-way line of the Huskies. Unless I'm mistaken with Lund, they are not physical by any means. Instead, they are defensively reliable, consistent, hard working, discipline players with elite hockey sense. I won't be matching any lines. I don't think it's necessary for me. But the third line will be playing a lot when protecting a lead.
What you should know about Helminen is that he is a strong center. He is good at getting himself into a position where the defensemen can feed him the puck with a simple pass. And Helminen is world class at keeping the play alive. He's not the kind of player who wants to dump the puck to the corner. He'd rather make a playmaking pass to one of his workhorse wingers which is exactly what I want him to do because the wingers don't have the physicality needed to win the battels in the corners. My third line will be annoying to play against because they will be basing their game on smartness and puck possession and they will be able to capitalize on the chances they'll get.
I think this is true. Mayasich was probably the most interesting pick of the draft. But he wasn't even a top 5 scorer in the 1956 and 1960 Olympics he took part in. He's got potential for sure, but little proven success.
Makarov has plenty of success in the Soviet league. He's 5th best goal scorer among defensemen in the history of the league. He was an exceptional skater.
I still want to point out that Babinov was a great defenseman too. For about a decade, he was an important part of arguably the best defense group the Soviet Union had. He seemed to be the best Soviet defenseman in the Canada Cup game Thornton_19 uploaded.
I think my second pairing is good enough. For some reason you are underrating Mitchell. Even with his limited puck moving skills, he's easily deserving the spot next to good offensive d-man Tapio Levo.
But I agree that the Sharks have probably the best third pair of the draft. I actually think they are better than Kubina and Kronwall.
Siltanen is a player who I thought about drafting. An excellent offensive defenseman. But he's so small and a huge liability defensively. I wouldn't want him playing top pairing minutes for my team. Nummelin on my team is a similar player with less success in the NHL. But he's playing third pairing minutes and will be used mainly as a power play expert. I don't know about the rules, but in case shootouts are needed, Nummelin, among the players with at least 10 shootouts, currently has the highest career shooting percentage in the NHL with 80.
Mitchell will be asked to play a lot on penalty kill. But I have a discipline team. My team won't be sitting in the penalty box a lot. If my team somehow gets distracted and ends up sitting in the box more than the opponents, I agree my team will have troubles because most of my defensemen aren't used to playing a lot on penalty kill.
Seth Martin has 4 Best Goalie of the Tournament awards to his name. Only Holecek has more with five.
"Unable to win on the international stage with true amateurs, Canada turned to Father David Bauer's plan to have a true national team. The players would remain amateurs, unlike their Soviet counterparts, as players were enticed with room and board plus full scholarships at the University of British Columbia. Canada would be able to train a team for international competitions year round, but would rarely attract top talent.
One exception was Martin. A charter member of the International Hockey Hall of Fame, Martin would represent Canada in the IIHF World Championships in 1963, 1964, 1966 and 1967, winning bronze medals in four championships. In addition to his 1961 gold medal and best goaltender nod, Martin's trophy case also proudly notes his status as the best goalie at the 1963, 1964 and 1966 worlds."
http://internationalhockeylegends.blogspot.com/2006/05/smoke-eater-seth-martin.html
Spitfire11
Registered User
Geee, I had Helsinki as the best team with 3 of the top 5 forwards, 2 of the top 5 defensemen, and one of the top 3 goalies. I guess that explains why my team's at the bottom with them, lol. Ah well, good luck Triffy I think you made a pretty darn good team.
Kyle McMahon
Registered User
- May 10, 2006
- 13,301
- 4,355
Both these teams have the two best coaches in the draft IMO. Berenson is a legend in the NCAA and Numminen sounds like he was the top Finnish coach of his generation, so I'd expect some good strategy from the two bench bosses.
Goaltending is another area of strength for both clubs, though it's a tough comparison head-to-head.
I see a lot of categories that look like a wash between the two sides, so this will definitely be a close series, and a hard one to vote on.
Goaltending is another area of strength for both clubs, though it's a tough comparison head-to-head.
I see a lot of categories that look like a wash between the two sides, so this will definitely be a close series, and a hard one to vote on.
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
All-star balloting has been tallied and...
This series has two of the three 1st team all-star forwards
Sharks captain Blachford vs. Huskies top pivot Bykov.
The Sharks have a 2nd team all-star in Whitcroft.
The Huskies also have Riley, Nilsson and Makarov playing in the all-star game; the Sharks also have Dvorak and Siltanen in the all-star game.
Four stars per team.
This series has two of the three 1st team all-star forwards
Sharks captain Blachford vs. Huskies top pivot Bykov.
The Sharks have a 2nd team all-star in Whitcroft.
The Huskies also have Riley, Nilsson and Makarov playing in the all-star game; the Sharks also have Dvorak and Siltanen in the all-star game.
Four stars per team.
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seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I gotta say, Triffy's last post was the best I've read in this draft so far. He's really pimping the Huskies.
Coming into this series, I also considered the Sharks' first line the best line in the draft. But everything is really tough to call. the further down you go, the smaller the differences between the players gets. And the harder it gets to appropriately consider overseas and early international competition, as I'm finding in this series.
Coming into this series, I also considered the Sharks' first line the best line in the draft. But everything is really tough to call. the further down you go, the smaller the differences between the players gets. And the harder it gets to appropriately consider overseas and early international competition, as I'm finding in this series.
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
The results are in...
The Helsinki Huskies defeat the China Sharks in six games.
Three stars: 1. Bykov 2. Oksanen 3. Blachford
Congratulations!
The Helsinki Huskies defeat the China Sharks in six games.
Three stars: 1. Bykov 2. Oksanen 3. Blachford
Congratulations!
Yay! My first victory. But we're not going to celebrate this too much. Still 12 wins to go.
Thanks Spitfire for the praises. I didn't expect to be in this position. Especially against you, as I had your team ranked somewhere in the middle of the rankings.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Sorry that I couldn't be more available yesterday to submit a vote. I had to go play floor hockey at 2 PM, then scrimaged for an hour, then reffer three games, not getting home until 9:30 PM. It wasn't supposed to be that way... someone from my team should have stepped up to ref those games. As captain, I've done as many this season as the rest of the team combined. Fully expected someone to step up and take some responsibility.
Congrats to the Huskies for getting to the main dance. You've got a tough series ahead of you.
Also, congrats to the Sharks on a well-built roster. I discovered right away when attempting to do rankings, that there was very, very little separating the players and the teams. Heck, there aren't any that I even see my own team as being significantly better than, and that's new to me. I know one line doesn't make a team, but I am still shocked that a team with Blachford, McGimsie, and Whitcroft is eliminated.
With a 9-team playoff system, you're left with one team stuck on the outside after a lightning round. It's too bad it has to be that way. I don't think any roster is even 15% better than any other roster in this draft.
Congrats to the Huskies for getting to the main dance. You've got a tough series ahead of you.
Also, congrats to the Sharks on a well-built roster. I discovered right away when attempting to do rankings, that there was very, very little separating the players and the teams. Heck, there aren't any that I even see my own team as being significantly better than, and that's new to me. I know one line doesn't make a team, but I am still shocked that a team with Blachford, McGimsie, and Whitcroft is eliminated.
With a 9-team playoff system, you're left with one team stuck on the outside after a lightning round. It's too bad it has to be that way. I don't think any roster is even 15% better than any other roster in this draft.
Spitfire11
Registered User
With all the Swedes on my team I'm shocked you weren't one of the ones who had me in last!
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