Line Combos: At what point will the lack of secondary scoring become a concern?

djpatm

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Feb 2, 2010
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Calgary
Okay but how else do you address the problem?

He's the only piece that may have some value that we could lose without creating a huge hole.

This team is not going to contend with relying on Mike Smith to bail them out every game and Gaudreau driving a goal or two. We don't have any picks, we can't just wait for the off chance of someone already on the roster all of the sudden figuring it out.
 

Calculon

unholy acting talent
Jan 20, 2006
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Doubt Treliving is stupid enough to sell low on players. And his history shows he's more than willing to be patient, thankfully. No team's giving up bonafide blue chippers for Bennett right now; there'd absolutely be interest but all of it would come in the form of vultures looking for an easy meal. Patience is a virtue.

I expect Treliving however to poke around the trade market because that's what he always does. At the same time, he'll first look at making internal changes, like waiting for Jagr to come back, calling up Mangiapane, etc.

Don't get a Darryl Sutter vibe from Treliving where he'll panic and make whatever move's on the table, even if it's terrible in the long run. So while he's probably inquiring on Duchene, E.Kane, and names we don't even know about, it's a relatively safe bet he won't pull the trigger unless the price actually makes sense for the Flames now and in the future. More likely, he looks at a coaching change given how lethargic the team looks most nights. But even that would be a couple of months away.

At the deadline, we could see him trade for some offensive help though if the team's in a good position. But less of a blockbuster and more of a Lazar+5th for Grabner type of deal.
 
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djpatm

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again... there is no long run.

Window is open. Next 3-4 years is it. So unless you think Bennett will become a completely different player in that timeframe (which Treliving might actually cling to, since it's his bust), you make a move.

We don't have picks, the RFA's become UFA's and we probably start from scratch.
 

Calculon

unholy acting talent
Jan 20, 2006
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There's always a long run.

This is but the first cup window if the GM plays his cards right. In three years, all of Hamilton, Tkachuk (safe assumption he gets a longterm contract), Monahan and Gaudreau will still have multiple years left on their contracts; all will still be in their primes. Brodie and Hamonic will be 30. Then there's still Jankowski, Bennett, and Ferland, all of whom would also be in their primes. Backlund would be but 31. That's a group of players that shouldn't be hard to build around.

Good management (aka good asset management) will open up another window when that first one closes. But bad management and short term thinking will close this window before it's even open. Like emptying the farm for two years of Duchene or Simmonds for example; the three year window becomes two with still no guarantees of anything.

Right now, I'd go as far as to say, the windows not even open even though the Flames don't have a first next year. Contending teams have four lines that can chip in and multiple high end threats. Flames have two of each at the moment. Adding a single big name won't fix the liability that is Gulutzan's love affair with fringe fourth line talent, or his questionable system. Flames need an abundance of quality depth and that's only going to come from within (i.e. Having Bennett, Jankowski, Dube, Mangiapane, Ruzicka, etc., pan out to become at the very least viable depth options at the NHL level).

The time is not now. Not unless Gulutzan magically stops acting like Brent Sutter anyway.
 

djpatm

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Feb 2, 2010
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Gaudreau has 4 years left after this season.

Filling his production internally is a huge ask unless the wheels fall off and we nail a lottery pick or we find another rare Gaudreau-esque steal.

If we can cheaply replace him and we see some surprises from the farm then I agree but it's not exactly a likely scenario.

I don't think selling Bennett low is something that would put that at risk either. Chances are this is who Bennett is and if you can flip him with a prospect for even a 50 point scorer, why on earth wouldn't you do it? Guy is heading for another sub 30 point season and frankly, should be in the AHL.
 
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Flameshomer

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Meh, I'm all for using Bennett as a piece for a scorer. Combined with one of our many d prospects it should be enough to land something in the Hayes- range maybe.
To me it has become abundantly clear that IF bennett ever does put it together, it will not be with the Calgary Flames. Hate to say it but the situation just isn't right- the coach has lost confidence in him (can't blame him) and the suggestion we throw him with top players to try and get him going is laughable and ridiculous when said top players can barely muster a goal on their own right now. His confidence in himself looks broken too. I think he needs a fresh start.

Frankly I wish him the best and hope he does turn around, but he's been bad this year. A shadow of the player we have seen before. Let's get something for him while people still remember what he looked like before :)
 

Flameshomer

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For the record, Stajan needs to be off the team, and I feel like Versteeg needs a few games in the pressbox to collect himself. Both have been just atrocious. Brouwer... is brouwer. I think he's ok down on the fourth line but his ice time needs to be limited and he needs to be removed from the PP.

Mangiapane/F.Hamilton-Lazar/Hrivik-Brouwer would probably be a much better fourth line, and it might have the WAY more noticeable effect of reducing Gulu's seeming love affair with our bottom line.
 

JPeeper

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He's hurting the team, taking up a roster spot and his value is only going to get lower? He might be a good piece in a package with a young D prospect for a top 6 winger.

Only caveat is I'd like to see them try him with Gaudreau and Monahan for at least a few games before we really give up.

Don't worry though, there has been no indication that a trade is in the works. They have not showcased him at all.

How is Bennett hurting the team? (I would say he was early on in the year, but not these past few games)

Him and Janko are getting better scoring chances than our 2nd line sans Tkachuk. He hasn't taken a bad penalty in 4+ games now (some penalties he took were good to take as the players had open nets).

The entirety of the 4th line is actually hurting our team. They are making any PP time we get meaningless because 2 of these bums are on the top unit and provide nothing to the PP. 2 of the 3 kill penalties and are no where near as effect as Frolik or Backlund, often can't even clear the puck when they have a free shot for 2 seconds. They get way too much ice-time and are hemmed in their own zone constantly. THEY are hurting the team, not Bennett.

Bart before he went to the popcorn bin was hurting the team with his inability to understand the fundamentals of hockey, using your stick when the puck is on the ice.
 

herashak

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Mar 24, 2013
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after we replace stajan, versteeg, and brouwer with mangiapane, hathaway, and dube/klimchuk/hrivik and theres still no secondary scoring. Then it's a problem
 

JPeeper

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As for Bennett busting, look at guys around the league like Zibanejad. 24 now and looking amazing, steadily improving every year.

There's nothing to say Bennett can't turn it around and become the player some of us think he can. While Zibanejad never slumped this hard (and this season is still early, he can still turn it around and get 40+ points), he was also given ample opportunity by his coaches and was developed properly. Bennett is 3 years younger and people are calling him a bust. It's hilarious.
 

DFF

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I dont find it funny. Bennett has been a huge disappointment. Only the blind cant see that.

The chance of him becoming a top player (which was expected as a top pick) is slim.

If he develops a brain, he may be serviceable
 
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Flameshomer

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As for Bennett busting, look at guys around the league like Zibanejad. 24 now and looking amazing, steadily improving every year.

There's nothing to say Bennett can't turn it around and become the player some of us think he can. While Zibanejad never slumped this hard (and this season is still early, he can still turn it around and get 40+ points), he was also given ample opportunity by his coaches and was developed properly. Bennett is 3 years younger and people are calling him a bust. It's hilarious.

Bennett would have to score at like a 60 point pace to get up there now, has not shown that at all.
 

Sparky93

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thought I read somewhere that out of Hayes/Kreider/Zuccarello, Zuc was the most likely to be moved.
Looking at some other RW's, I'm not really sure who else might be available. Duclair maybe?
Ho Sang
 

CamPopplestone

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Sep 27, 2017
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I would like to see Bennett scratched a game or two. I don't care if he's "creating" he has zero points in 13 games. Scratch him, see if it gets him going.
 

Baxterman

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The problem is there doesn't appear to be much offensive talent down there- Lazar and Bennett have talent but are snake bitten right now. Jankowski, Ferland, Stajan, Brouwer, Glass and Hamilton all suck. Versteeg is very inconsistent with this year being way more on the bad side then good side. Jagr still has moments but looks so slow and a step behind everything.

There is no help in the AHL and we have already spent a ton of assets already.

I don't mind moving the defensive prospects, as outside of Valimaki they don't look very good at all, but I can't really see them bringing anything of value back.
 

Flameshomer

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The problem is there doesn't appear to be much offensive talent down there- Lazar and Bennett have talent but are snake bitten right now. Jankowski, Ferland, Stajan, Brouwer, Glass and Hamilton all suck. Versteeg is very inconsistent with this year being way more on the bad side then good side. Jagr still has moments but looks so slow and a step behind everything.

There is no help in the AHL and we have already spent a ton of assets already.

I don't mind moving the defensive prospects, as outside of Valimaki they don't look very good at all, but I can't really see them bringing anything of value back.

What are you even talking about... Kylington has 7 points and is +6 in 10 games and andersson 8 and +5. Both look very steady. Fox also looks fantastic.
No help in the AHL? Last I checked we had one of the top scorers in the league.
Jankowski has been just as snakebitten as the others, and I think he's looked better than Bennett.
 
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Baxterman

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What are you even talking about... Kylington has 7 points and is +6 in 10 games and andersson 8 and +5. Both look very steady. Fox also looks fantastic.
No help in the AHL? Last I checked we had one of the top scorers in the league.
Jankowski has been just as snakebitten as the others, and I think he's looked better than Bennett.

I think Kylington potentially has the offensive skills to play in the NHL but his defense and IQ will hold him back or limit him to a 6th guy/PP specialist that you hope can outscore his many mistakes.

Fox as well has major defensive issues that I think hold him back.

Mangiapane looks to be that typical junior/AHL scorer that will struggle in the NHL when the gaps get smaller and the guys are 6'2 200+ and still world class skaters. I guess it is possbile but there really isn't much reason to think he will be anything more than crap at the NHL level.
 

Dack

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Lazar isn't talented at all especially not more so than Jankowski, he shouldn't have been drafted where he was. His only amount of time showing anything that might indicate high level talent was when he played with Mcdavid at the WJC. I didn't like the trade then and I don't think it's any better now, his upside is a 4th liner.

Kylington has been improving his defence each season and has had a great start to the season offensively. I see nothing that says he couldn't be an NHLer especially considering 75% of the league's bottom pairing guys are just straight up bad. He's definitely got issues but he's still young as hell most of the guys in his draft class are entering their first AHL season.

Andersson has all the tools he needs to be effective in the NHL he just needs to get a bit quicker.

Fox? Don't even know where to begin with that one he's simply a great player. He could stand to clean up defensively and improve his skating but with his Hockey IQ I find it really hard to see him busting. I'm more worried about him not signing here than not translating. Especially after the Stone contract.

Mangiapane has done everything we could ask of him so far so why assume he'll bust? His slightly older linemate from junior currently has 7 points in 12 NHL games this season. I don't understand why someone would dislike this player but like Lazar. Mangiapane is far more talented with the puck and is a similar level skater the only thing Lazar does better is being bigger.
 
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Baxterman

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Mangiapane has done everything we could ask of him so far so why assume he'll bust? His slightly older linemate from junior currently has 7 points in 12 NHL games this season. I don't understand why someone would dislike this player but like Lazar. Mangiapane is far more talented with the puck and is a similar level skater the only thing Lazar does better is being bigger.

Most guys his size don't make it. Heck most prospects don't make it. The AHL is littered with guys who put up great numbers in the AHL/CHL who can't transition that production to the NHL. The reason is that some guys are able to exploit issues that aren't there anymore when you get to the NHL. With Mangiapane's size and lack of impressive skills he seems much more likely to be the career AHL scoring champ rather than a productive NHL player.
 

DFF

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Most guys his size don't make it. Heck most prospects don't make it. The AHL is littered with guys who put up great numbers in the AHL/CHL who can't transition that production to the NHL. The reason is that some guys are able to exploit issues that aren't there anymore when you get to the NHL. With Mangiapane's size and lack of impressive skills he seems much more likely to be the career AHL scoring champ rather than a productive NHL player.

For example, if you put Bennett in the AHL, he may be a star. In the NHL, his brain is just a step too slow.

Some just cant adjust to the pace.
 

Dack

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Most guys his size don't make it. Heck most prospects don't make it. The AHL is littered with guys who put up great numbers in the AHL/CHL who can't transition that production to the NHL. The reason is that some guys are able to exploit issues that aren't there anymore when you get to the NHL. With Mangiapane's size and lack of impressive skills he seems much more likely to be the career AHL scoring champ rather than a productive NHL player.
He's 5'10 180 lbs there are lots of players currently playing at that size both in top and bottom 6 roles.
 

DFF

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Vey was a good scorer in the AHL...looks at what happened to him
 

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