Around the NHL 2017-2018 Offseason Edition

[Claypool]

Chicago is just mediocre right now because the cap hasn't risen enough to offset Kane and Toews' contracts.

No they are just a bad team. Bowman is doing the exact same thing you've criticized Holland and this organization for doing: bad, long-term contracts for declining talent, bringing back old veterans, and trying to rebuild on the fly.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

No they are just a bad team. Bowman is doing the exact same thing you've criticized Holland and this organization for doing: bad, long-term contracts for declining talent, bringing back old veterans, and trying to rebuild on the fly.

Kane and Toews aren't even 30 yet. Z and D were almost 30 when they won the cup in 08. There is no comparison.

Hawks are 16th in GF and GA. That's mediocre.

 

[Claypool]

Kane and Toews aren't even 30 yet. Z and D were almost 30 when they won the cup in 08. There is no comparison.

Hawks are 16th in GF and GA. That's mediocre.

They haven't won a playoff series in two years (soon to be three years). Getting bounced in the first round consecutively, aging roster, bad contracts, reliance of past veterans.

Sure seems like what you've been criticizing Detroit for.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

They haven't won a playoff series in two years (soon to be three years). Getting bounced in the first round consecutively, aging roster, bad contracts, reliance of past veterans.

Sure seems like what you've been criticizing Detroit for.

Uhhh i criticize Detroit for relying on 35+ players to do 90% of the work and only trying to build a first round exit team.

NOBODY advocated to blow up the Wings three years after their last cup victory.

Chicago isn't even remotely comparable.

 

[Claypool]

Uhhh i criticize Detroit for relying on 35+ players to do 90% of the work and only trying to build a first round exit team.

NOBODY advocated to blow up the Wings three years after their last cup victory.

Chicago isn't even remotely comparable.

I don't see what makes Chicago a legitimate Cup contender over the next five years. They have shown a decline over the last three years. Keith isn't going to get better at 35, either.

 

[kliq]

Uhhh i criticize Detroit for relying on 35+ players to do 90% of the work and only trying to build a first round exit team.

NOBODY advocated to blow up the Wings three years after their last cup victory.

Chicago isn't even remotely comparable.

100% disagree. Chicago appears to be in the exact same spot Detroit was in back in 2010 & 11 after losing to SJ. Just wait a few years and it should become clear. Unless they make major moves or strike gold in the draft, they are going downhill fast. Go to the Blackhawks boards, fans sound the exact same as you when you talk about the Wings/Holland.

 

[chances14]

Ehhh Chicago just needs the cap to go up a little bit more and get better than 3.1 GAA/.857 save percentage from their backup goalie.

all their core players are on the downside of their careers. their run of being perennial cup contenders are over.

 

[Redder Winger]

all their core players are on the downside of their careers. their run of being perennial cup contenders are over.

Kane and Toews are younger than Malkin and Crosby

 

[Claypool]

Kane and Toews are younger than Malkin and Crosby

And neither player are as good as Crosby and Malkin.

 

[Redder Winger]

And neither player are as good as Crosby and Malkin.

They're pretty darn good players.
Writing off Chicago now is premature.

 

[Winger98]

100% disagree. Chicago appears to be in the exact same spot Detroit was in back in 2010 & 11 after losing to SJ. Just wait a few years and it should become clear. Unless they make major moves or strike gold in the draft, they are going downhill fast. Go to the Blackhawks boards, fans sound the exact same as you when you talk about the Wings/Holland.

We were arguably in better shape in 10/11. Lids was almost done, but I think our cap situation was better and we were having an easier time filling out our lineup beneath our top guys.

 

[Redder Winger]

100% disagree. Chicago appears to be in the exact same spot Detroit was in back in 2010 & 11 after losing to SJ. Just wait a few years and it should become clear. Unless they make major moves or strike gold in the draft, they are going downhill fast. Go to the Blackhawks boards, fans sound the exact same as you when you talk about the Wings/Holland.

The big difference is that Bowman has been aggressively changing the roster for 5-6 years already.

The similarity is that Bowman seems to have run out of ideas and he just keeps bringing back relics of past glory.

But Toews is 29.
Kane is 29..
Kane is 34.
Seabrook is 32.
Crawford is 33.

Compared to the 11-12 WIngs
Datsyuk 33
Zetterberg 30
Lidstrom 41
Kronwall 30
Franzen 31

I think Chicago is still young enough to push for 3-4 more years.
But they need a fresh voice behind the bench.

 

[chances14]

toews hasn't been the same the last 2 years. keith is slowing down and seabrook is toast. crawford has been decent but he will be 34 next season.

bowman will need to hit on some trades and the draft, otherwise I don't see them as cup contenders

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

I don't see what makes Chicago a legitimate Cup contender over the next five years. They have shown a decline over the last three years. Keith isn't going to get better at 35, either.

Agreed. Chicago looks very identical to the post 2009 Red Wings, and they’re in a really bad spot. I knew those Kane and Toews contracts would anchor them long term. I think they have maybe 1 more deep run left in them with this group, but age, lack of depth, and the salary cap have finally caught up to them.

And for the record, when Lidstrom retired, I was ready to gut this team. It was clear where we were going. I just wanted to give prerogative to Hank and Pavs for what they wanted to do since we owed so much of 2008 to those two. Pavs bounced, no judgement there, and Hank’s still with us. But everyone else I was ready to get whatever we could for them.

Hawks are going to have a lot of tough years ahead of them as a lower seed playoff team, especially with how good the central is right now.

 

[Winger98]

The big difference is that Bowman has been aggressively changing the roster for 5-6 years already.

The similarity is that Bowman seems to have run out of ideas and he just keeps bringing back relics of past glory.

But Toews is 29.
Kane is 29..
Kane is 34.
Seabrook is 32.
Crawford is 33.

Compared to the 11-12 WIngs
Datsyuk 33
Zetterberg 30
Lidstrom 41
Kronwall 30
Franzen 31

I think Chicago is still young enough to push for 3-4 more years.
But they need a fresh voice behind the bench.

Look at the young guys who could/should have been coming up behind those wings, though. After 11/12 they should have kept Hudler, promoted Nyquist/Tatar from the start, and never ventured into assembling that whole Bert/Sammy/Tootoo triumvirate of horror. I don't see the same youth or reasonably priced young(er) vets coming up in Chicago.

The Wings would have still fallen off at some point, but there was a path there that could have avoided some cap/contract issues and kept them a better club for a little while longer, imo. Looking at chicago, I'm not sure what they can do right now. Other than draft Dahlin apparently.

 

[jkutswings]

I would argue that right now is the time for Chicago to begin a focused yet metered approach to rebuilding. No scorched Earth or fire sales, but reshuffle a piece or two at a time, to deal players that still have some value if possible, and not wait until the bottom has completely fallen out.

The Hawks MIGHT have one decent run left - ironically, like Detroit had until they lost to Chicago in 7 games - but, for all intents and purposes, their shot at another Cup is over, so start the transition to the next window of contention.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

They're pretty darn good players.
Writing off Chicago now is premature.

They are pretty darn good players being paid ridiculous salaries.

Toews has scored less than 60 points two seasons in a row. He is on pace for 55 points this season. The team has been bounced in the first round twice in a row.

Kane has been at least playing up to his contract expectations to a degree. But he isn't guaranteed to do that forever and this season has certainly been disappointing compared to what he has been capable of.

Adding the fact that Duncan Keith is no longer the Duncan Keith from the glory days, Seabrook has taken a serious spiral downwards in his career, and Crawford isn't good enough to bail out the team on a nightly basis, the team has some serious issues that all have to be addressed if they are to be a contender again.

 

[Frk It]

Puts into perspective how impressive our run was. Heck, even managing to make the playoffs and not bottom out between 2013-2016. That's how good Datsyuk and Zetterberg were even in their mid 30s.

Toews and Kane aren't even 30 yet and they still aren't good enough to carry a below average roster to the playoffs.

I'll take 3 Cups and missing the playoffs here and there, over 1 Cup and a playoff streak any day of the week.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I'll take 3 Cups and missing the playoffs here and there, over 1 Cup and a playoff streak any day of the week.

I don't think he is arguing what you think he is arguing.

 

[Frk It]

I don't think he is arguing what you think he is arguing.

I was looking at that last sentence there. Chicago's having a rough year, I get it. Just not sure it's a good look to be making fun of their overpaid elite players, when we're not even sure if we have one yet.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I was looking at that last sentence there. Chicago's having a rough year, I get it. Just not sure it's a good look to be making fun of their overpaid elite players, when we're not even sure if we have one yet.

Well that depends how many people you know from that fan-base that regularly said they would have a more impressive run than we did. Sorry that crashes and burns right now. What you said is something we had from 97-2002 only we were a lot better before and a lot better after with additional Stanley Cup Finals, President's Trophies and Stanley Cups to that run.

I can't help but smile while I kick dirt on the grave of one of the more annoying fanbases I have encountered.

I am not wandering over to their board to take that shot or the main board. Am I excited that they didn't hold up and have hit a few bumps? Yes, outside of the Leafs who I hate by far the most the Hawks are a team I have very little love for.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

The big difference is that Bowman has been aggressively changing the roster for 5-6 years already.

The similarity is that Bowman seems to have run out of ideas and he just keeps bringing back relics of past glory.

But Toews is 29.
Kane is 29..
Kane is 34.
Seabrook is 32.
Crawford is 33.

Compared to the 11-12 WIngs
Datsyuk 33
Zetterberg 30
Lidstrom 41
Kronwall 30
Franzen 31

I think Chicago is still young enough to push for 3-4 more years.
But they need a fresh voice behind the bench.

Kane is the only player playing at the level of the five Wings you just listed. Yes 29 year old Toews is worse than 30 year old Kronwall.

I guess Crawford was actually pretty good to start the year, but he has been hurt a long time and seems to be getting hurt more often as he ages, that seems unlikely to reverse itself. Seabrook is getting healthy scratched he is last year of Brad Stuart in Detroit bad right now.

 

[TheMule93]

i was trying to give praise to Datsyuk and Zetterberg, but if you want to get all offended im sure Chicago fans will appreciate you for it ✓

 

[Frk It]

Well that depends how many people you know from that fan-base that regularly said they would have a more impressive run than we did. Sorry that crashes and burns right now. What you said is something we had from 97-2002 only we were a lot better before and a lot better after with additional Stanley Cup Finals, President's Trophies and Stanley Cups to that run.

I can't help but smile while I kick dirt on the grave of one of the more annoying fanbases I have encountered.

I am not wandering over to their board to take that shot or the main board. Am I excited that they didn't hold up and have hit a few bumps? Yes, outside of the Leafs who I hate by far the most the Hawks are a team I have very little love for.

Fair enough, I guess I just don't know many Blackhawks fans. But I do know tons of annoying Penguins fans, I'd love it if they could fall from grace... If they 3 peat I will probably lose my mind.

i was trying to give praise to Datsyuk and Zetterberg, but if you want to get all offended im sure Chicago fans will appreciate you for it ✓

I'm not offended. I just think there's some level of throwing stones while living in glass houses going on... but oh well.

 

[Redder Winger]

Kane is the only player playing at the level of the five Wings you just listed. Yes 29 year old Toews is worse than 30 year old Kronwall.

I guess Crawford was actually pretty good to start the year, but he has been hurt a long time and seems to be getting hurt more often as he ages, that seems unlikely to reverse itself. Seabrook is getting healthy scratched he is last year of Brad Stuart in Detroit bad right now.

At this age, I think you can change the outlook of this team a lot by changing the coach.
Toews should not be this bad.
Seabrook should not be this bad.
Keith should not be this bad.