Speculation: Armchair GM Thread Parts Unknown - Hey how about Bennett for Lindholm?

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All I can say is that these Bennett threads/posts will be an awful lot of fun to come back to in a couple of years.

It's a real shame a lot of the best of the Backlund hysteria was left behind when the servers were changed.

And yet if memory serves you were part of the group hating on Monahan to start the season. (full disclosure, I could be remembering wrong).

I would be okay if Bennett was just struggling to produce, but was getting chances. And I don't think it's an awful option to wait and see if he bounces back next season. I just don't want to end up in a Yakupov situation where his trade value becomes nil and we are left with nothing when we could have moved him for value sooner.
 

Flameshomer

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Getlaf, Bergeron, RoR, Eichel, Toews, Seguin, Zetterberg, McDavid, Barkov, Carter, Kopitar, Tavares, Giroux (before this season atleast), Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Matthews, Backstrom, Kuznetsov, Scheifele, Little.

Who is Monahan better than these guys? And I even left some names off the are debatably better than him too. Sure he is younger than some of these guys but in my opinion, I don't see the talent in his game to bring him much better than he is today. That leaves him in the 20-30 range for centers if you are a big fan of him. That is a low end 1C.

I think you're really selling monahan's future potential short, and realistically he already has the talent to be at least as good as the bolded.
 

Sparky93

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I think you're really selling monahan's future potential short, and realistically he already has the talent to be at least as good as the bolded.
Considering that point production is usually the most common measuring stick for for #1 centres, he's out produced Toews, Bergeron and Eichel too. He's also only produced 14 points less than Giroux, over the last 3 seasons....less than 5 points a year difference. All while playing with one constant winger and talent the likes of Hudler, Jooris, Chiasson and Ferland. Guys want elite production get a top 6 winger for the Gaudreau-Monahan line and see what happens.
 
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FlamerForLife

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All I can say is that these Bennett threads/posts will be an awful lot of fun to come back to in a couple of years.

It's a real shame a lot of the best of the Backlund hysteria was left behind when the servers were changed.

There's a big difference between the 2, Backlund was picked somewhere in the mid 20's, while Bennett was picked 4th, if Bennett turns into what Backlund is now it's still a good piece, but not something you'd expect the 4th overall pick to be.
I'm sure everyone on this board wants Bennett to be that 1C he's been pegged to be, but no one can deny he's been really underwhelming this season.
 

kruezer

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They are very different players, though. I was on the Backlund bandwagon from day 1, and even as a rookie (or during any of the seasons people claimed he should be sent back to the AHL or whatever) his underlying numbers were very good. As far as I remember, he's been a positive possession player his entire career, even when he lacked offensive confidence in his game.

It's certainly too early to start freaking out about Bennett in his sophomore season, but he's also not showing as many positive signs of development as Backlund did through each season he's been in the league. My take on Bennett is that he's young and there are many ways this could go, but this season definitely would be considered "going according to plan" for his development.

Not sure I totally agree with this. Looking at CF% as the stat to back this up is too simplistic. Bennett's offense is whats dropped out, his CA/60 isn't much different than last year, or much different that Backlund's usual rate, its slightly worse, but nothing outrageous.

On the otherhand his CF/60 dropped 10 events. This is pretty obvious from watching the games. I think his issue is exactly a lack of confidence offensively. Which definitely is a worry but far less of one to me.

EDIT - and I didn't look but his CF/60 may certainly be related to who he is playing with (QualTeam is a far more important stat than QualComp). We need him to be a guy to bring guys up not be dragged down, but if he can't do that yet, again, i am not incredibly concerned.
 
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Calculon

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And yet if memory serves you were part of the group hating on Monahan to start the season. (full disclosure, I could be remembering wrong).

I would be okay if Bennett was just struggling to produce, but was getting chances. And I don't think it's an awful option to wait and see if he bounces back next season. I just don't want to end up in a Yakupov situation where his trade value becomes nil and we are left with nothing when we could have moved him for value sooner.

Utterly disingenuous.

First, there's a vast difference between criticizing poor play (of which Monahan was absolutely guilty of at the beginning of the season; as was Bennett for large parts of the year) and suggesting it's entirely indicative of the future, especially when a player is just 20 or 22. Criticism doesn't mean "giving up", it means there's still something for a player to work on, which is entirely possible when they're 20 or 22.

Second, this is Bennett's second full season and second head coach already. So, panning his potential because he's not already McDavid is ridiculous. The impatience is absurd on so many levels; 'oh no, the Flames are barely a playoff team but clearly they don't have the time to wait for a potentially elite talent to figure things out. Better sell when the values low and move onto the next shiny toy, because clearly, the Flames developmental program is never wrong.'

Third, it's a matter of trends, which means waiting (oh the humanity!). If in two or three seasons from now, Bennett is still struggling with the same issues, then yeah, it's fair to say his potential isn't what it was once thought to be. But after two seasons? It's absurd. Honestly, it's going to be very, very amusing to see the Jankowski crowd turn on him if/when he struggles (especially offensively) in his first few seasons. Particularly because, unlike Monahan (but like Bennett) he won't be gifted powerplay time or the best of the best of linemates (do people really think that he'd excel next to Bouma/Chiasson/Brouwer/ES Versteeg? Because if so, lol).

Fourth, every player is available for the right price. I was and still am absolutely open to moving Monahan if the return is out of this world (e.g., Matthews). Same goes for Bennett (and every other player), but the reality is, his value's low and it's exceedingly unlikely the Flames would get a 'fair' return. In other words, unless you want a lower potential prospect like Strome or Dal Colle, the logical thing to do is hold on to Bennett and work with him (what a novel concept; working with a player to help both them and the team) to get him to a level that helps the Flames win a cup or three. The Flames have nothing but time so what's the rush?

Fifth, opinions are opinions but people should also have the ability to accept and understand that management will do things their way. Just like how Treliving prefers to overcook (in my opinion, mis-develop) prospects, he's not going to panic and sell low on Bennett just because some fans are hilariously insecure about Draisaitl and the Oilers being better right now.

Lastly, "hate" is unnecessary, unless the vast majority here want to be known as Bennett haters (and Backlund haters; given that over 90% of this board had given up on him years ago, and there's a pretty good chance you were a part of that group). I know there's this very weird and peculiar inferiority complex/personal reaction around any sort of criticism on Monahan but people need to understand, criticism does not equal "hate". Monahan's been great in the latter half of the season but even then, he's going to have to get even better if the Flames want to become bonafide cup contenders. Same goes for most of the roster.

There's a big difference between the 2, Backlund was picked somewhere in the mid 20's, while Bennett was picked 4th, if Bennett turns into what Backlund is now it's still a good piece, but not something you'd expect the 4th overall pick to be.
I'm sure everyone on this board wants Bennett to be that 1C he's been pegged to be, but no one can deny he's been really underwhelming this season.

Utterly revisionist.

One of the biggest and dumbest things people use to argue against Backlund was that even though he was well-above average defensively, decent but unspectacular offensively, the fact that he was a first round pick and not playing like a number one centre immediately was more than enough to reason to get rid of him.

And I recall that argument specifically because of how absurd it was. At the end of the day, all that matters is if they're helping the team (now and/or in the future) win games.

But still, even if Bennett never becomes that number one centre a lot of people thought he might be, what's the big deal? Why all the impatient hysteria? The Flames still need centre depth and again (and again and again and again and again) Treliving's philosophy is building down the middle, on defence and in net. If Backlund walks, Monahan remains a 60 point centre, and Jankowski turns unto the next Steckel, but you've already moved Bennett for something shiny, how exactly does that help the Flames?

If people actually think Treliving, the same Treliving who always, always, always talks about 'overcooking' prospects in the system, marinating/ripening, etc., etc., etc., is going to give up on Bennett, especially for a winger, just to pencil in Jankowski (especially when he has another year of waiver exemption status), well, they're going to be very disappointed next September.

I mean, I'd like to see Jankowski on the team (along with a lot of other prospects) because an upwards push is vastly underrated or just not understood in the organization, but I'm also not exactly expecting it. There's nothing in their history to suggest otherwise.

It's certainly too early to start freaking out about Bennett in his sophomore season, but he's also not showing as many positive signs of development as Backlund did through each season he's been in the league. My take on Bennett is that he's young and there are many ways this could go, but this season definitely would be considered "going according to plan" for his development.

Aside from the obvious growth isn't always linear and that's okay, I agree with this but I also think there's a very simple and obvious reason as to why. Bennett's game involves playing with an edge; and that edge was coached out of him at the beginning of the season. Anytime he started playing physical, he'd get a penalty, and because the Flames struggled so much on the PK during the time, Gulutzan resorted to outright benching him. And now his confidence is shot and he's struggling to find what works at this level without getting benched again.

Giving Bennett some more rope and leeway to play without fear of benchings, some better linemates that can actually help him (another novel concept for this organization; actually helping young players get better instead of just expecting him to do it all on their own) along with Bennett getting stronger and more experienced, and I think most people starting pretending like the current hysteria never happened.

But the fact that so many are already willing to give up on a very promising talent without even trying something so simple is just mind bottling.
 

SmellOfVictory

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Utterly disingenuous.

First, there's a vast difference between criticizing poor play (of which Monahan was absolutely guilty of at the beginning of the season; as was Bennett for large parts of the year) and suggesting it's entirely indicative of the future, especially when a player is just 20 or 22. Criticism doesn't mean "giving up", it means there's still something for a player to work on, which is entirely possible when they're 20 or 22.

Second, this is Bennett's second full season and second head coach already. So, panning his potential because he's not already McDavid is ridiculous. The impatience is absurd on so many levels; 'oh no, the Flames are barely a playoff team but clearly they don't have the time to wait for a potentially elite talent to figure things out. Better sell when the values low and move onto the next shiny toy, because clearly, the Flames developmental program is never wrong.'

Third, it's a matter of trends, which means waiting (oh the humanity!). If in two or three seasons from now, Bennett is still struggling with the same issues, then yeah, it's fair to say his potential isn't what it was once thought to be. But after two seasons? It's absurd. Honestly, it's going to be very, very amusing to see the Jankowski crowd turn on him if/when he struggles (especially offensively) in his first few seasons. Particularly because, unlike Monahan (but like Bennett) he won't be gifted powerplay time or the best of the best of linemates (do people really think that he'd excel next to Bouma/Chiasson/Brouwer/ES Versteeg? Because if so, lol).

Fourth, every player is available for the right price. I was and still am absolutely open to moving Monahan if the return is out of this world (e.g., Matthews). Same goes for Bennett (and every other player), but the reality is, his value's low and it's exceedingly unlikely the Flames would get a 'fair' return. In other words, unless you want a lower potential prospect like Strome or Dal Colle, the logical thing to do is hold on to Bennett and work with him (what a novel concept; working with a player to help both them and the team) to get him to a level that helps the Flames win a cup or three. The Flames have nothing but time so what's the rush?

Fifth, opinions are opinions but people should also have the ability to accept and understand that management will do things their way. Just like how Treliving prefers to overcook (in my opinion, mis-develop) prospects, he's not going to panic and sell low on Bennett just because some fans are hilariously insecure about Draisaitl and the Oilers being better right now.

Lastly, "hate" is unnecessary, unless the vast majority here want to be known as Bennett haters (and Backlund haters; given that over 90% of this board had given up on him years ago, and there's a pretty good chance you were a part of that group). I know there's this very weird and peculiar inferiority complex/personal reaction around any sort of criticism on Monahan but people need to understand, criticism does not equal "hate". Monahan's been great in the latter half of the season but even then, he's going to have to get even better if the Flames want to become bonafide cup contenders. Same goes for most of the roster.



Utterly revisionist.

One of the biggest and dumbest things people use to argue against Backlund was that even though he was well-above average defensively, decent but unspectacular offensively, the fact that he was a first round pick and not playing like a number one centre immediately was more than enough to reason to get rid of him.

And I recall that argument specifically because of how absurd it was. At the end of the day, all that matters is if they're helping the team (now and/or in the future) win games.

But still, even if Bennett never becomes that number one centre a lot of people thought he might be, what's the big deal? Why all the impatient hysteria? The Flames still need centre depth and again (and again and again and again and again) Treliving's philosophy is building down the middle, on defence and in net. If Backlund walks, Monahan remains a 60 point centre, and Jankowski turns unto the next Steckel, but you've already moved Bennett for something shiny, how exactly does that help the Flames?

If people actually think Treliving, the same Treliving who always, always, always talks about 'overcooking' prospects in the system, marinating/ripening, etc., etc., etc., is going to give up on Bennett, especially for a winger, just to pencil in Jankowski (especially when he has another year of waiver exemption status), well, they're going to be very disappointed next September.

I mean, I'd like to see Jankowski on the team (along with a lot of other prospects) because an upwards push is vastly underrated or just not understood in the organization, but I'm also not exactly expecting it. There's nothing in their history to suggest otherwise.



Aside from the obvious growth isn't always linear and that's okay, I agree with this but I also think there's a very simple and obvious reason as to why. Bennett's game involves playing with an edge; and that edge was coached out of him at the beginning of the season. Anytime he started playing physical, he'd get a penalty, and because the Flames struggled so much on the PK during the time, Gulutzan resorted to outright benching him. And now his confidence is shot and he's struggling to find what works at this level without getting benched again.

Giving Bennett some more rope and leeway to play without fear of benchings, some better linemates that can actually help him (another novel concept for this organization; actually helping young players get better instead of just expecting him to do it all on their own) along with Bennett getting stronger and more experienced, and I think most people starting pretending like the current hysteria never happened.

But the fact that so many are already willing to give up on a very promising talent without even trying something so simple is just mind bottling.

I was hoping I'd get an "utterly x" as well. :laugh: I'll be interested to see what happens with him. Next season will be quite important, because although he's young, we should expect to see visible improvement sometime in that time frame, especially with the same coach and a team with a stable core.
 

Tkachuk Norris

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Calc, you pretty clearly prefer Bennett to Monahan.


And the whole, do you think he would produce with such and such... The answer is yes. And in fact, he not only produces. But tends to get the most of linemates he's played with. Who did Hudler, Gaudreau, Glencross, Baertschi, Jones, Versteeg, Brouwer and so on have most success with as a line mate? Sean Monahan.

The line mate excuse is pretty ridiculous at this point. Monahan makes the players around him better. Bennett hasn't done that yet.
 

Flames Fanatic

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Yes Calculon, because I clearly hate Bennett because he isn't McDavid. :rolleyes:

For someone who started with a long post with "Utterly disingenuous" you seem to go out of your way to do the same via hyperbole.

And I wasn't ever against criticizing Monahan. He sucked to start the year. Plain and simple. I was against trading him because of a slow start. Two completely different things.

The Flames development system sucks. We've not developed many players who weren't already loaded with talent in a long time. I'm not saying Bennett is solely at fault. What I'm suggest is at what time do we consider moving him if he isn't going to succeed here.

Short of a ridiculous offer for him this off season, I still want to see how he does to start next year before we move on from him.
 

Anglesmith

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For what it's worth, trading Bennett doesn't necessarily have to be a Baertschi-type deal where you cut your losses and take what you can get.

I'd be in favour of moving Bennett to address needs. If you can't get something helpful for him, I don't think it makes any sense to just salvage futures for him. At worst, he's going to be a talented player with potential making small-time money on his extension.
 

Lunatik

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Oct 12, 2012
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For what it's worth, trading Bennett doesn't necessarily have to be a Baertschi-type deal where you cut your losses and take what you can get.

I'd be in favour of moving Bennett to address needs. If you can't get something helpful for him, I don't think it makes any sense to just salvage futures for him. At worst, he's going to be a talented player with potential making small-time money on his extension.
I think a Strome or Bjugstad and another piece for Bennett might be a good deal for both teams. It's not about selling him for the sake of selling him, we'd need another fairly young piece in return that has some potential but I think ruling out trading him without looking into it is equally as irresponsible as trading him for the sake of trading him.
 

Johnny Hoxville

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I agree with Calc here. Pretty much word for word. I'm highly against dealing Bennett. Even if he never hits his ceiling, at this point it is still very high and if he hits it, we will lose any deal that we would currently make. His style of play also really fits our needs, keep him, work with him and develop him.

Hox's Hot take:

It's also okay to like both Monahan and Bennett, they are both Flames.
 

MonyontheMoney

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Why has Draisaitl even been brought up in this conversation?

Nobody cited his development as a reason why Bennett has been disappointing. Bennett has been disappointing because of Sam Bennett, not Draisaitl.
 

L13

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Oct 1, 2015
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At this point I've calibrated my long-term expectations of Bennett to 'middle-six forward, 30-50 points per season,' which is a player every team needs, so I'm not rushing to trade him or anything. But if the return had more value than that because the GM on the other end was blinded by his draft pedigree, I'd take it.

On a separate note, it sounds like BU's coach thinks Hickey is going back for senior year, whereas Treliving said he was trying to get Hickey signed. I'm all for finishing your education and all and don't want to pressure anyone to drop out of college, but given our situation at the backend I won't expect Hickey to sign with us as a de facto free agent next season if he goes back to BU. So if that's what he wants to do, I hope Treliving will be smarter than Poile and trade him immediately.
 

SmellOfVictory

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I think a Strome or Bjugstad and another piece for Bennett might be a good deal for both teams. It's not about selling him for the sake of selling him, we'd need another fairly young piece in return that has some potential but I think ruling out trading him without looking into it is equally as irresponsible as trading him for the sake of trading him.

Not a fan of Strome or Bjugstad, myself. Bjugstad is okay, but very middle-six-often-injured kind of player. Stome just straight up sucks. Like, he's performing similarly to Bennett except he's three years older.
 

Lunatik

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Oct 12, 2012
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Not a fan of Strome or Bjugstad, myself. Bjugstad is okay, but very middle-six-often-injured kind of player. Stome just straight up sucks. Like, he's performing similarly to Bennett except he's three years older.
Strome has been outperforming Bennett, he is also a better playmaker than Bennett. 7 more points in 7 fewer games is not that similar. Strome is a player who IMO just needs a change of scenery and if we could also get an asset like Pelech, I think it would be a very good deal.
 

Sparky93

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Dec 30, 2010
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Strome has been outperforming Bennett, he is also a better playmaker than Bennett. 7 more points in 7 fewer games is not that similar. Strome is a player who IMO just needs a change of scenery and if we could also get an asset like Pelech, I think it would be a very good deal.

Hosestly, Strome can't perform without proper support either. I'd rather move one of the defensive prospects or Lazar in a package for him than Bennett. Seems like he's a likely candidate for the ED.
 

InfinityIggy

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Strome has been outperforming Bennett, he is also a better playmaker than Bennett. 7 more points in 7 fewer games is not that similar. Strome is a player who IMO just needs a change of scenery and if we could also get an asset like Pelech, I think it would be a very good deal.

He is also several years older. Wouldn't move Bennett for him straight up.
 
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