Speculation: Armchair GM Thread: I can't believe it's not butter, I can't believe we didn't get Ryan Hartman.

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WhiskeyYerTheDevils

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I have no problem moving Ferland because he has shown zero ability to create offense and is a total product of that top line. I think there are a lot of other guys that we could slot in and do at minimum as good if not a better job. Some guys might even be able to help out Monahan and Gaudreau when they are on a cold streak or off game rather than just going cold with them waiting for them to set him up.

That said I think if we are able to move him the move should be to try and get someone to play on a 2nd scoring line with Tkachuk and Bennett. The dream of a super top line I don't think is needed and certainly not as much as a guy that can help create a 2nd scoring line.

The fact that Ferland is not a good enough player to fit on that 2nd line kind of shows how limited he is to leeching off Monahan and Gaudreau.
.

5v5 Primary Points / 60
Gaudreau 2.10
Ferland 1.93
Monahan 1.89

Certainly doesn't look like Ferland is being carried.

Funny you say Ferland "waits around to be set up by the other two" while he has more primary assists than Monahan at 5v5 despite playing 80 less minutes. . .
 
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DFF

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5v5 Primary Points / 60
Gaudreau 2.10
Ferland 1.93
Monahan 1.89

Certainly doesn't look like Ferland is being carried.

Funny you say Ferland "waits around to be set up by the other two" while he has more primary assists than Monahan at 5v5 despite playing 80 less minutes. . .


Really?

All I know is the Flames have been struggling in the last couple months and he contributed nothing.

Ferland played great about 30 percent of the time. Rest he looks like a fourth liner without effort
 

Baxterman

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5v5 Primary Points / 60
Gaudreau 2.10
Ferland 1.93
Monahan 1.89

Certainly doesn't look like Ferland is being carried.

Funny you say Ferland "waits around to be set up by the other two" while he has more primary assists than Monahan at 5v5 despite playing 80 less minutes. . .

Do we only count PP points now and P/60 or do we count actual production?

And watching them play the actual game to see what happens it is clear as day that Ferland is 100% carried by those two.

You can try and break down the numbers to make it look as good as you want for Ferland but until they start handing out play-off spots based on ES P/60 I will take the two guys who are producing 22-58-78 and 30-32-62 over the guy with 20-17-37, especially when the eye test aligns with the stats to show that the guy producing way less is way behind the other two as well.
 
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Sparky93

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I think the thought of moving Hamilton is intriguing, simply for the reason that there’s no reason to move him and his value should be huge alone without the added leverage of not having to make a deal. Considering the returns lesser player like Hamonic and Larsson have brought back, we should be looking at a young cost controlled, bonified top 6 RW +, maybe +,+. For example, from the Leafs, I don’t think a return of Nylander, their 1st and Brown/Kapanen would be out of the question at all.

Our defensive prospect depth gives us a lot of options and I wouldn’t feel uncomfortable moving forward with cost controlled youth, if the return was right. I could see our defence looking like this over the next 2 years.

Next year:
Gio-Hamonic
Brodie-Andersson
Kulak-Stone

Year 2:
Gio-Brodie
Valimaki-Hamonic
Kulak-Andersson
 

WhiskeyYerTheDevils

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8 points in first 4 games after new year, so 9 points in last 24 games. 1 goal and 8 assists.

Yea he went through a cold streak, only 8 5v5 points over 24 games.
Over the same period, Monahan has only 11 5v5 points in 27 games.

It's not like he's been the only one struggling - both guys have been fighting injuries so its not too surprising.
 

WhiskeyYerTheDevils

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Do we only count PP points now and P/60 or do we count actual production?

And watching them play the actual game to see what happens it is clear as day that Ferland is 100% carried by those two.

You can try and break down the numbers to make it look as good as you want for Ferland but until they start handing out play-off spots based on ES P/60 I will take the two guys who are producing 22-58-78 and 30-32-62 over the guy with 20-17-37, especially when the eye test aligns with the stats to show that the guy producing way less is way behind the other two as well.

I'm just showing you that when the three of them are together at 5v5, Ferland is far from being carried from a production perspective. Not sure how other situations when they are not together. are relevant.

He's been more than holding his own on that line, especially considering his role is also to create space using his physicality. There's a reason Monahan and Gaudreau have seen significant production bumps since Ferland was added to their line.
 

Baxterman

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I think the thought of moving Hamilton is intriguing, simply for the reason that there’s no reason to move him and his value should be huge alone without the added leverage of not having to make a deal. Considering the returns lesser player like Hamonic and Larsson have brought back, we should be looking at a young cost controlled, bonified top 6 RW +, maybe +,+. For example, from the Leafs, I don’t think a return of Nylander, their 1st and Brown/Kapanen would be out of the question at all.

I think trading Hamilton is a huge risk and I don't think the return is likely worth it.

If we move Hamilton we have to rely on Gio not taking much of a step back as he gets to the age where guys take steps back, hope that at least 1 of the prospects turn into a top 4 guy, hope that Brodie can return back to form and

If those things happen/don't happen then we are left with a gigantic hole on defense and I think that is a harder spot to fill than top 6 winger.

I think the moment we move Hamilton we end up trying to fill the top 4 defender hole and just shift the weakness from up front to the back end.
 

Bjornar Moxnes

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I think the thought of moving Hamilton is intriguing, simply for the reason that there’s no reason to move him and his value should be huge alone without the added leverage of not having to make a deal. Considering the returns lesser player like Hamonic and Larsson have brought back, we should be looking at a young cost controlled, bonified top 6 RW +, maybe +,+. For example, from the Leafs, I don’t think a return of Nylander, their 1st and Brown/Kapanen would be out of the question at all.

Our defensive prospect depth gives us a lot of options and I wouldn’t feel uncomfortable moving forward with cost controlled youth, if the return was right. I could see our defence looking like this over the next 2 years.

Next year:
Gio-Hamonic
Brodie-Andersson
Kulak-Stone

Year 2:
Gio-Brodie
Valimaki-Hamonic
Kulak-Andersson

Unfortunately Leafs fans will hate that deal lol.
 

Tkachuk Norris

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Ferland has 5g 17p in 28gp since the new year, with all but one of those points coming at ES...

Why is it so hard to understand for some people that his numbers 5 on 5 are pretty decent?

Plus Johnny and Sean seem to produce well with him because he’s got the speed and muscle that Johnny and Sean need to compliment them.

This team needs a legit scoring threat for line three. And it needs Bennett and Janko to become more consistent. Which they will ie Ferland. And I’m a big Dube guy too.

But a year with Dube and Fox playing in the AHL is probably the best things for those guys imo.
 
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Bounces R Way

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Team needs another 30 goal scorer. Not surprised we were inquiring about Hoffman and Pacioretty. Preferably we get one who with a RHS and can play on the top line. The Flames opened this year with five supposed top 9 RWers in Frolik, Jagr, Versteeg, Brouwer, and Ferland. They should of had depth but that dried up pretty quick didn't it?

Rather than get another maybe like Domi, Palmieri, or Lindholm would be, I'd prefer to see them acquire someone with a solid history of production. The Flames for years tried this "well maybe it'll work" approach with their goaltending, getting guys who could potentially be a 1G and then weren't. Acquiring a legitimate 1st line player for the RW would sort out the rest of the lineups depth. Spending assets on another question mark would just be more of the same, lots of line juggling and frustrating consistency. Ideally you want to fill the depth positions with cheap young players from your own organization anyway.

Treliving has his core locked up, really there's not a ton of holes left, if he can add that one final piece of the puzzle I really think this team should be contending for a division next year.
Kovalchuk or Tavares or both would be a fine reward for the good cap management he's put in so far.
 
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Baxterman

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I'm just showing you that when the three of them are together at 5v5, Ferland is far from being carried from a production perspective. Not sure how other situations when they are not together. are relevant.

He's been more than holding his own on that line, especially considering his role is also to create space using his physicality. There's a reason Monahan and Gaudreau have seen significant production bumps since Ferland was added to their line.

Except you aren't showing that at all because the numbers do nothing to show what happened to create the play, who it was that created the chance vs. just got a point for touching the puck.

Watching them play and it is clear as day Ferland is the 3rd wheel that gets points because any warm body when paired with those two would get points, in fact most warm NHL bodies would get more.
 

Baxterman

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Why is it so hard to understand for some people that his numbers 5 on 5 are pretty decent?

Plus Johnny and Sean seem to produce well with him because he’s got the speed and muscle that Johnny and Sean need to compliment them.

I think what some people are questioning is whether or not his production is "pretty decent" because he is talented and/or a good fit on the top line or whether he is the product of playing with good players and others could do as well or better than him in the same role.

As for Gaudreau and Monahan needing the speed and muscle of Ferland they produced pretty well with Hudler there and he has neither. I think it would be interesting to see if they had a guy that was somewhat close to their skill on that line to see if they could be even better or at least more consistent.
 

Flames Fanatic

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I'm just showing you that when the three of them are together at 5v5, Ferland is far from being carried from a production perspective. Not sure how other situations when they are not together. are relevant.

He's been more than holding his own on that line, especially considering his role is also to create space using his physicality. There's a reason Monahan and Gaudreau have seen significant production bumps since Ferland was added to their line.

He's holding his own, especially given in the injury, but I think it's fair to say he doesn't produce like that not being on the top line, which is more so what people think of. I'm happy to keep him there, but for a scoring line results are important in the end, and many will look at his 37 points versus Monahan's 62 and Gaudreau's 80 as a problem.

Personally I'm of the opinion the top line is fine and that Frolik's bad luck and the lack of production from the bottom six has sunk this team offensively.
 

Tkachuk Norris

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Except you aren't showing that at all because the numbers do nothing to show what happened to create the play, who it was that created the chance vs. just got a point for touching the puck.

Watching them play and it is clear as day Ferland is the 3rd wheel that gets points because any warm body when paired with those two would get points, in fact most warm NHL bodies would get more.

He was effective last year in the bottom six. Much like Paul Byron he was really able to turn the tide for our putrid bottom 6 when he was out there.

20 goals doesn’t happen by accident. Ferly has skill. He’s only going to get better.

He isn’t the problem. The problem is lack of scoring depth. Ferly’s production is 5 on 5. That is all that really matters. 5 on 5 production is difficult in the modern game. We need more guy with skill. That is this team’s problem.
 
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Sparky93

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Unfortunately Leafs fans will hate that deal lol.
They probably wouldn’t but let’s face it, most teams trying to acquire a young, Hamilton caliber defenseman, isn’t going to like the asking price. Most of us didn’t like the price of Hamonic but that’s market value and the 2 aren’t even comparable.
 
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Flames Fanatic

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He was effective last year in the bottom six. Much like Paul Byron he was really able to turn the tide for our putrid bottom 6 when he was out there.

20 goals doesn’t happen by accident. Ferly has skill. He’s only going to get better.

He isn’t the problem. The problem is lack of scoring depth. Ferly’s production is 5 on 5. That is all that really matters. 5 on 5 production is difficult in the modern game. We need more guy with skill. That is this team’s problem.

I guess I question how high is ceiling is though. I know it's always touted that Ferland started late and is a late bloomer, but the guy is gonna be 26 in a month. Generally speaking guys don't keep showing new depths at that age. I'm content if he stays at a 20-20-40 kinda guy, anything more is gravy.
 

Bjornar Moxnes

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They probably wouldn’t but let’s face it, most teams trying to acquire a young, Hamilton caliber defenseman, isn’t going to like the asking price. Most of us didn’t like the price of Hamonic but that’s market value and the 2 aren’t even comparable.

I still remember the days when Leipsic/Leivo and a 2nd was the best offer for Hamilton from Leafs fans haha.
 

Baxterman

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He was effective last year in the bottom six. Much like Paul Byron he was really able to turn the tide for our putrid bottom 6 when he was out there.

20 goals doesn’t happen by accident. Ferly has skill. He’s only going to get better.

He isn’t the problem. The problem is lack of scoring depth. Ferly’s production is 5 on 5. That is all that really matters. 5 on 5 production is difficult in the modern game. We need more guy with skill. That is this team’s problem.

I agree the problem is lack of scoring depth so in terms of Ferland if we moved him to a different line would he be able to help us with scoring depth?

Does a line of Tkachuk-Bennett-Ferland for example, provide the top line with sufficient scoring depth. Personally I don't trust Ferland (and Bennetts) ability to be effective enough 5 on 5 for a line like that to work.

So back to the original point if we can trade Ferland for someone who can fit on that line and move someone up to the top line to replace Ferland and his production then should we do it?

I think that we can replace Ferland on that top line without losing much. I also think that Ferland is not a good fit to help create offense on a "2nd line" so if a deal is there for someone who can then we should go for it.

You may be right that Ferland isn't the problem but he may not be part of the solution as well.

Edit: Sorry forgot this, why is he only going to get better? I mean I get it is possible but not sure why it is a foregone conclusion with him.
 

Tkachuk Norris

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I guess I question how high is ceiling is though. I know it's always touted that Ferland started late and is a late bloomer, but the guy is gonna be 26 in a month. Generally speaking guys don't keep showing new depths at that age. I'm content if he stays at a 20-20-40 kinda guy, anything more is gravy.

I don’t disagree. I see him as the same. But 40 point guys help you win. Ideally you get an upgrade on Ferland and move him to line three. But right now what other options do we have?
 
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Mr Snrub

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I guess I question how high is ceiling is though. I know it's always touted that Ferland started late and is a late bloomer, but the guy is gonna be 26 in a month. Generally speaking guys don't keep showing new depths at that age. I'm content if he stays at a 20-20-40 kinda guy, anything more is gravy.

Depends on whether he's settled in on that top line or still learning. Realistically he doesn't look that much more consistent than the last two years, he just has slightly longer hot stretches. I think if he has the ability to be more consistent (which I believe he does) he could pick it up a bit and be a perennial 30-goal scorer.
 
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