Speculation: Armchair GM and Rumors Thread XXII - FLAMES RELATED (Matt Stajan Appreciation inside)

[Lunatik]

The only hysterics surrounding trading Jones at the deadline (that I can recall) were "please Jebus let it be true"

I thought it was a bad deal because we took Backstrom and only for a 6th. I was more upset at the Hudler trade

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

All I know is that I am a die hard Flames fan and I trust and support every personnel move without question. The fans who question everything are the worst IMO.

 

[Lunatik]

All I know is that I am a die hard Flames fan and I trust and support every personnel without question. The fans who question everything are the worst IMO.

10/10 would read again

 

[Volica]

The only hysterics surrounding trading Jones at the deadline (that I can recall) were "please Jebus let it be true"

Nah. There was *****ing about getting a 6th for him. I.E it wasn't even worth trading him.

To really piggyback on Calc's comments, today's NHL, success is almost fully dependant on how a team manages their cap structure. It seems the new NHL is going in the way of:
5-7 players making a majority of the cap. The rest on ELC's, Vet minimums and some mid table players that make a couple million to 3 million.

Right now, if you look at our defensive core, you see a mis-managed cap. 6 guys all making 3 million or more. 1 guy's LTIRetired, which helps, but you're paying 8.25 million in cap on two bottom pairing guys. That's just unacceptable really. What if Back's contract had been out this summer, we'd be saying bye simply because we don't have the space.

Cap management is also a necessity if you want to keep your picks. What have we seen with cash-strapped teams? Movement of deadweight and picks just to fix cap problems. I'd hate to lose a dart for the board just because we signed someone for significantly more money than they're worth.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Pelech, Nemisz, Chucko, Erixon, Irving. Yes go Flames!! Seriously though our depth is the weakness of our team and separates us from teams like SJ, St. Louis and Anaheim that all have solid depth throughout their libeups.

Bollig, Stajan, Wideman, none of these guys are good NHL players. Burke is out to lunch. And I'm pretty sure Tree has no idea what good depth looks like.

 

[Volica]

Pelech, Nemisz, Chucko, Erixon, Irving. Yes go Flames!! Seriously though our depth is the weakness of our team and separates us from teams like SJ, St. Louis and Anaheim that all have solid depth throughout their libeups.

Bollig, Stajan, Wideman, none of these guys are good NHL players. Burke is out to lunch. And I'm pretty sure Tree has no idea what good depth looks like.

He worked in Arizona.
All he knows is how depth looks like

 

[InfinityIggy]

Nah. There was *****ing about getting a 6th for him. I.E it wasn't even worth trading him.

We took Matthew Phillips with that pick. Seems like a reasonably okay deal to me.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Nah. There was *****ing about getting a 6th for him. I.E it wasn't even worth trading him.

To really piggyback on Calc's comments, today's NHL, success is almost fully dependant on how a team manages their cap structure. It seems the new NHL is going in the way of:
5-7 players making a majority of the cap. The rest on ELC's, Vet minimums and some mid table players that make a couple million to 3 million.

Right now, if you look at our defensive core, you see a mis-managed cap. 6 guys all making 3 million or more. 1 guy's LTIRetired, which helps, but you're paying 8.25 million in cap on two bottom pairing guys. That's just unacceptable really. What if Back's contract had been out this summer, we'd be saying bye simply because we don't have the space.

Cap management is also a necessity if you want to keep your picks. What have we seen with cash-strapped teams? Movement of deadweight and picks just to fix cap problems. I'd hate to lose a dart for the board just because we signed someone for significantly more money than they're worth.

I agree with your assessment on the management of a cap. But I do think the Flames in particular have had a proper plan in place all along based on when contracts expire and extensions need to be given. Wideman wasn't signed under Treliving, but Raymond and Engelland were and those guys didn't get beyond 3 year deals. Essentially when guys deals are up, it usually works out for when extensions are given. So for the Flames in particular, I actually think we are in good shape once this season is over.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Pelech, Nemisz, Chucko, Erixon, Irving. Yes go Flames!! Seriously though our depth is the weakness of our team and separates us from teams like SJ, St. Louis and Anaheim that all have solid depth throughout their libeups.

Bollig, Stajan, Wideman, none of these guys are good NHL players. Burke is out to lunch. And I'm pretty sure Tree has no idea what good depth looks like.

Our depth will be addressed sooner than later. Guys like Ferland, Hamilton, Hathaway, Poirier and Klimchuk will soon be up and filling in those roles.

 

[Lunatik]

Our depth issues are middle 6, not the 4th line.

 

[Fig]

We took Matthew Phillips with that pick. Seems like a reasonably okay deal to me.

To a certain extent, didn't we nab Phillips for a few hundred K salary difference?

 

[Dertell]

But I do think the Flames in particular have had a proper plan in place all along based on when contracts expire and extensions need to be given.

Bickell was cap-dumped on the last year of his contract. 3 years term for mediocre vets is still a long time and a unnecessary risk. I mean, young player(s!) can easily have a breakout year after burning a year or two of their ELC and it changes everything.

 

[Volica]

To a certain extent, didn't we nab Phillips for a few hundred K salary difference?

Yep.
Jones' bloated carcass of a contract, for Backstrom's bloated carcass of a contract

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

He worked in Arizona.
All he knows is how depth looks like

It's more just the:
-Bollig move (although that might have been Burke)
-releasing Byron
-signing Engelland, Stajan, Smid to way overpaid deals. Raymond.

Like honestly what depth moves have we made that have worked out?? He literally hasn't acquired anyone that can handle a shift at the NHL level. People love to hate on Feaster but the vast majority of the good players that are On the roster are from him.

Look at Sutter. Always found good depth guys.. Tree? Who did he add?

 

[Lunatik]

I love when people prove they have no idea what they are actually talking about.

Stajan was Burke
Smid was acquired in a trade, not singed by Feaster no less. Byron was waived, not released.

So your complaint is acquiring a 4th liner? Waiving a 4th liner, signing Engelland who has played quite well and Raymond.

Yep lots of reasons to ***** and cry about Treliving

Also Sutter gave out far too many bad contracts, he handed out NMCs and NTCs like they were candy on halloween

 

[RedHot]

It's more just the:
-Bollig move (although that might have been Burke)
-releasing Byron
-signing Engelland, Stajan, Smid to way overpaid deals. Raymond.

Like honestly what depth moves have we made that have worked out?? He literally hasn't acquired anyone that can handle a shift at the NHL level. People love to hate on Feaster but the vast majority of the good players that are On the roster are from him.

Look at Sutter. Always found good depth guys.. Tree? Who did he add?

A big reason that it's hard to build depth with this current roster is that you can't replace the guys with bloated contracts. To expensive to demote, to hard to trade, and usually a combination of both.

But as usual, we'll hear from the "muh veterans" crowd as soon as the topic of overpaid mediocre players come up

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

I love when people prove they have no idea what they are actually talking about.

Stajan was Burke
Smid was acquired in a trade, not singed by Feaster no less. Byron was waived, not released.

So your complaint is acquiring a 4th liner? Waiving a 4th liner, signing Engelland who has played quite well and Raymond.

Yep lots of reasons to ***** and cry about Treliving

Also Sutter gave out far too many bad contracts, he handed out NMCs and NTCs like they were candy on halloween

Answer my question though. Who has Treliving brought in that has helped this team? What NHL caliber players? Only Jooris and we cut him away for worse players in Korpikoski and Higgins.

I don't count FA because it requires overpayment.

I included Smid and Stajan because they were deals signed by our current management (although you might be right Smid might have been signed by Feaster). Burke has a role to play on this team. He deserves criticism for the deals he made. As does Treliving.

 

[DCDM]

I don't count FA because it requires overpayment.

Two posts ago you literally used Engelland and Raymond as fodder against Treliving, now you're saying we can't use them because FAs don't count?

Raymond was coming off an almost-20 goal season. Engelland was signed because a) we needed to reach the cap floor, b) we didn't want to throw a young dude on the third pairing, and c) to bring some toughness to the lineup. Similar to why Bollig was acquired.

 

[MonyontheMoney]

What if Back's contract had been out this summer, we'd be saying bye simply because we don't have the space.

But it isn't. Let's not use hypotheticals. Treliving had a plan, he knew when we'd need cap space and when we'd have the best chance to keep/lose Backlund. A contract that expired this year was probably completely off the table in negotiations with Backlund. We can't just pretend it's by luck that Backlunds' contract didn't expire this year, when it's quite obvious there would have been planning involved, GM's don't just spin a wheel to determine these things.

Overall though, I do agree with your assessment of how the cap should be used. But many of these deals were signed just to reach the cap floor when we would be bad, now they are overpaid, absolutely, they should have been shorter term deals to reach the floor in Raymond/Stajan/etc.

However where I disagree with most posters and side with MM, is you can't hold the fact that a player is overpaid against them. Should Stajan have said "No, I don't think I want 3+ million, I'll take 1m". No, that's absurd. Just because they're overpaid doesn't meant hey aren't NHL players, which it seems like lots of people fail to see.

Is Stajan at 1 million an NHL player? You bet your ass. At 950K is Engelland an NHL player? You bet your ass. At 1 million is Wideman an NHL player? Absolutely. At 700K is Bollig an ok player to have in the press box as a 14th forward? Sure, it could be a spot better used but it's not bad. Is Bouma at 950K a good bottom 6 forward? **** yeah.

So why them would Stajan at 3.13 not be an NHL player? Why wouldn't Engelland at 2.9 be an NHL player? Why would Bouma not be an NHL player at 2.20m? Why is Wideman hardly an NHL player at 5.25?

The point is (and not necessarily directed at you) that people mix in cost with ability to determine whether a player is NHL quality or not, at least it seem that way, when ability and ability alone should determine if a player is an NHL player.

 

[Volica]

It's more just the:
-Bollig move (although that might have been Burke)
-releasing Byron
-signing Engelland, Stajan, Smid to way overpaid deals. Raymond.

Like honestly what depth moves have we made that have worked out?? He literally hasn't acquired anyone that can handle a shift at the NHL level. People love to hate on Feaster but the vast majority of the good players that are On the roster are from him.

Look at Sutter. Always found good depth guys.. Tree? Who did he add?

Bollig move was a 100% Burke move; when you look at that draft, Smith in the second is also a Burke move

Passing Byron through waivers was a gamble he lost, in hindsight, it's always 20/20. It's not like Byron's 18 points last year lite the world on fire

Engelland and Raymond were the two signings Treliving made; the other two are Burke and Oilers. I understood them at that time. We were suppose to be a bottom feeder for a few more years, no one expected the rebuild to move in a faster pace than this.

Regarding depth, Treliving has brought in Hamilton, Frolik and Brouwer; the two RW's are excellent depth moves, Hamilton is a home-run move. He's given a chance to Seto, signed Johnson this year.

Feaster gets credit for drafting, this is the lineup he added that are currently with our team:
Gaudreau (his greatest accomplishment)
Monahan (no brainer 6th overall by pundits)
Wideman
Smid

Prospects:
Gillies
Janko
Klimchuk
Poirier

I think using the term vast; is a bit out to lunch; 4 players, our two stars, and two bits of deadweight doesn't equate to a majority heh.

Sutter:
Giordano
Brodie
Backlund
Bouma
Stajan
Ferland

Treliving:
Bennett
Tkachuk
Hamilton
Frolik
Brouwer
Elliott
Johnson
Shinkaruk

Oddly enough, Sutter build the skeleton, Feaster built the muscle, Treliving is finishing off the skin

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Two posts ago you literally used Engelland and Raymond as fodder against Treliving, now you're saying we can't use them because FAs don't count?

Not as positives no. Signing free agents any club can do. Brouwer and Frolik are overpayed. That's what happens with FA.

Good GMs add players to their organizations from Europe, college FA, and cheap deals around a million. When has Treliving ever had a successful move? Keep trashing me if you like. But no one can answer that question because it hasn't happened... In three seasons. That's extremely concerning to me.

As for the draft. That's Button that gets credit. Monahan, Bennett, and Tkachuk were all painfully obvious picks.

 

[Rangediddy]

Answer my question though. Who has Treliving brought in that has helped this team? What NHL caliber players? Only Jooris and we cut him away for worse players in Korpikoski and Higgins.

I don't count FA because it requires overpayment.

I included Smid and Stajan because they were deals signed by our current management (although you might be right Smid might have been signed by Feaster). Burke has a role to play on this team. He deserves criticism for the deals he made. As does Treliving.

I think it's more than what exact players Tre has brought in or let go. It's the path he's put the team on. He's known we're a rebuilding team and likely figured there was no point in bringing in anyone decent in the first few years so we could stock the cupboards with prospects and good young talent. That along with the anchor contracts coming off at the end of this year, I think this trade deadline and next off season is where we see Treliving really put his stamp on this franchise.

He's locked up the core long term (assuming Johnny's 6+ years) and is likely biding his time until he has actual cap space to bring in that competitive middle 6.

 

[MonyontheMoney]

Not as positives no. Signing free agents any club can do. Brouwer and Frolik are overpayed. That's what happens with FA.

Good GMs add players to their organizations from Europe, college FA, and cheap deals around a million. When has Treliving ever had a successful move? Keep trashing me if you like. But no one can answer that question because it hasn't happened... In three seasons. That's extremely concerning to me.

Frolik was not successful? Brouwer wasn't successful?

 

[Volica]

But it isn't. Let's not use hypotheticals. Treliving had a plan, he knew when we'd need cap space and when we'd have the best chance to keep/lose Backlund. A contract that expired this year was probably completely off the table in negotiations with Backlund. We can't just pretend it's by luck that Backlunds' contract didn't expire this year, when it's quite obvious there would have been planning involved, GM's don't just spin a wheel to determine these things.

Overall though, I do agree with your assessment of how the cap should be used. But many of these deals were signed just to reach the cap floor when we would be bad, now they are overpaid, absolutely, they should have been shorter term deals to reach the floor in Raymond/Stajan/etc.

However where I disagree with most posters and side with MM, is you can't hold the fact that a player is overpaid against them. Should Stajan have said "No, I don't think I want 3+ million, I'll take 1m". No, that's absurd. Just because they're overpaid doesn't meant hey aren't NHL players, which it seems like lots of people fail to see.

Is Stajan at 1 million an NHL player? You bet your ass. At 950K is Engelland an NHL player? You bet your ass. At 1 million is Wideman an NHL player? Absolutely. At 700K is Bollig an ok player to have in the press box as a 14th forward? Sure, it could be a spot better used but it's not bad. Is Bouma at 950K a good bottom 6 forward? **** yeah.

So why them would Stajan at 3.13 not be an NHL player? Why wouldn't Engelland at 2.9 be an NHL player? Why would Bouma not be an NHL player at 2.20m? Why is Wideman hardly an NHL player at 5.25?

The point is (and not necessarily directed at you) that people mix in cost with ability to determine whether a player is NHL quality or not, at least it seem that way, when ability and ability alone should determine if a player is an NHL player.

It was simply a fictional example of why cap management is important. I don't think I've ever argued that player salary should determine player quality; what I've been banging the drum on is simply intelligent cap management.

I personally don't like Wideman or Stajan as players. One is a liability, the other is a penalty sponge; that being said, do their contracts also play a role in my wondering why they're on this team, yeah sure. They're both NHL guys, I haven't even argued that, but they're overpaid, no one can argue that. We got away with it this time, because the timing was perfect (and GM's definitely have to make the timing work when contracts expire) but I don't think Calgary should be in the business of bad contracts. 1 million overpayment on an FA is one thing, 3-4 million is another

 

[tmurfin]

Bollig move was a 100% Burke move; when you look at that draft, Smith in the second is also a Burke move

Passing Byron through waivers was a gamble he lost, in hindsight, it's always 20/20. It's not like Byron's 18 points last year lite the world on fire

Engelland and Raymond were the two signings Treliving made; the other two are Burke and Oilers. I understood them at that time. We were suppose to be a bottom feeder for a few more years, no one expected the rebuild to move in a faster pace than this.

Regarding depth, Treliving has brought in Hamilton, Frolik and Brouwer; the two RW's are excellent depth moves, Hamilton is a home-run move. He's given a chance to Seto, signed Johnson this year.

Feaster gets credit for drafting, this is the lineup he added that are currently with our team:
Gaudreau (his greatest accomplishment)
Monahan (no brainer 6th overall by pundits)
Wideman
Smid

Prospects:
Gillies
Janko
Klimchuk
Poirier

I think using the term vast; is a bit out to lunch; 4 players, our two stars, and two bits of deadweight doesn't equate to a majority heh.

Sutter:
Giordano
Brodie
Backlund
Bouma
Stajan
Ferland

Treliving:
Bennett
Tkachuk
Hamilton
Frolik
Brouwer
Elliott
Johnson
Shinkaruk

Oddly enough, Sutter build the skeleton, Feaster built the muscle, Treliving is finishing off the skin

Add Jokipakka to Tre, other than that very well said. Tre has done a good job considering what he's had to work with. Besides, EVERYONE knew we would be strapped until next season, but since we're ahead of schedule, it's all anybody talks about now.