Another Woodlief chat

[Chili]

This is funny...

Edmonton Alberta: I have watched your on going assessment of David Brown of Notre Dame, and couldn't agree more. With his strong play and good stats, why is Redline the only scouting services to give this player credit? And what deficiencies could there be for other organizations to rank him as a mid 20 N.A. goaltender?

Kyle Woodlief: I have to chuckle. We had him at No. 32 overall last year and he went through 292 picks unclaimed. All I can tell you is that I firmly believe he's a legitimate first rounder. Some teams may not feel that he has ideal size and it's really kind of difficult to categorise what type of style he plays; it's certainly not a style you would teach in a goaltending clinic. Perhaps the unorthodox nature of his style has some people perplexed. But this kid stops pucks at every level, and I'm willing to say right now that I think he'll eventually be a good NHL netminder.

Contrast that to his comments on Corey Crawford:

In Quebec, Moncton's Corey Crawford had a standout season, but his wafer-thin body and technique flaws left us unconvinced about his ability to hold up over the long run.

One kid has technique flaws and the other is unorthodox?

And one was selected in the second round and the other wasn't selected.

edit: I should have added that the two are similar in size.

 

[Slats432]

Intersting comment about 6 first round potential goalies. I think we've seen a lot of posters underrate how high the goalies are going to go because they aren't "sexy" picks. Certainly the HF Staff Mock Draft looks extremely unrealistic with Montoya slipping to 21. I'd be downright shocked if Schwarz or Montoya was available at #12. Dubnyk won't last past 25 at the latest IMO.

I think you get caught up in the market when you do a mock draft. Most teams are either solid between the pipes or have one two or even three good goalie prospects in their system. Montreal draft a goalie? Theo, Garon, Puurala, Dannis, Halak. Buffalo draft a goalie? Biron, Noronen, Miller...

With the depth of the goaltending, Schwarz, Montoya, Dubnyk, Shantz, Schneider, Peters, Brown, Akerlund, Valent, Churchill......you have to figure that with goalies the hardest to peg for the future, many people subscribe to the feeling that taking a goaltender in the first round is too chancy a pick. I personally agree with this philosophy. I wouldn't select a goaltender in the first round unless he drops to an unimaginable place. I would pick Montoya at 21 if he were available, but not top 15.

Also, the skill area of the draft is the weakest part of it. If your only shot at a strong skilled player is in the first round, you have to take your shot. If I had to pick for say.........Edmonton at 14th and 25th, neither pick would be a goalie, and I would grab one of the top 7 or 8 guys at 44th in the 2nd round. Likely you would be able to grab one there.

That is my take.

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Goaltending is the most important position in hockey.

Generally most forwards play less than a third of the game whereas goalies play the whole game and defensemen play 1/3 to 1/2 at the top end.

I think some people seem to be forgetting about the relative impact of those positions. I know several teams actively build from the net out and I've certainly heard that catchphrase. In the grand scheme of things it seems a single forward is the least impactful or important position unless you land a true franchise player.

 

[ChemiseBleuHonnete]

What a boring chat session!

 

[DJ Spinoza]

I got in, again. 2/2, I must be good at asking questions.

Pittsburgh, PA: We've seen some talk about Jannik Hansen, a very fast and talented skater from Denmark. What do you think about his countryman, Peter Regin? Regin, according to some, may be the highest Dane selected ever in an NHL entry draft, but I haven't seen too much hype about him. Where do you project him to go, where would you take him, and what do you think his upside is in the NHL?

Kyle Woodlief: I love Hansen as one of the real sleepers in this draft. I'd take him as high as the 3rd round. But I really can't stand Regin - he's is a terrific goalscorer with a great shot, but very soft and scared when playing against physical teams. Shies away from contact and is not willing to compete hard for the puck or go to traffic areas. Someone will take him in the top 4-5 rounds, but I hope for his sake the team that drafts him doesn't have a Sutter or Keenan coaching.


I'd take a chance on Regin in the 4th if I was Pittsburgh.

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

What a boring chat session!

Strange, I thought it was one of the best ones I've read leading up to the draft. Unlike team scouts he's more willing to talk specifics since he isn't really giving away what his team is going to do. I also really liked some of the stuff I've read on the Wild website, the Oilers, some of Don Waddell's interviews, etc. I eat this stuff up, interviews with scouts and GM's, guys who've actually seen the kids play this year.

What were you expecting? Why was it boring? What would you rather he talked about? I don't really understand where you're coming from.

 

[Dave is a killer]

he likes Ovechkin more than Nash...ooooookay

 

[Slats432]

Goaltending is the most important position in hockey.

Generally most forwards play less than a third of the game whereas goalies play the whole game and defensemen play 1/3 to 1/2 at the top end.

I think some people seem to be forgetting about the relative impact of those positions. I know several teams actively build from the net out and I've certainly heard that catchphrase. In the grand scheme of things it seems a single forward is the least impactful or important position unless you land a true franchise player.

And most goalies don't hit their prime until 27-28. It is next to impossible to project that far with goaltenders, so whether you take them in the first or 7th round, the gamble is far greater and your chances of picking a solid number one guy are drastically reduced. I didn't say don't draft a goalie. You need solid goaltenders, but it is so hard to project them, I would rather take my chances drafting goaltenders later in the draft and getting skaters skill in the first round.

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

And most goalies don't hit their prime until 27-28. It is next to impossible to project that far with goaltenders, so whether you take them in the first or 7th round, the gamble is far greater and your chances of picking a solid number one guy are drastically reduced. I didn't say don't draft a goalie. You need solid goaltenders, but it is so hard to project them, I would rather take my chances drafting goaltenders later in the draft and getting skaters skill in the first round.

Later in the draft your chances of finding a goalie are reduced. People love to trot out where Kipper, Turco, Miller, etc were picked but that is certainly the exception. I could just as easily trot out Kim Johnsson or Datsyuk or Zetterberg using the same logic as to why you shouldn't take skaters in the first round.

I think some people have underrated how much goalie scouting has improved lately and how much goalie coaches can make an impact. It seems to me that most of the goalies taken in the past 5 years early are still top prospects or were thought to be questionable picks at the time (Munro to CHI comes to mind). And I don't see a lot of teams finding many Luongo's, Lehtinen's or Fleury's late in the draft.

Despite the long development time it's still the most important position. Teams have gone years and years without finding a good solution for their starting goalie, I know because Calgary was one of them after making the mistake of taking Kidd instead of Brodeur. I don't think you can count on getting a goalie late and I don't think any team can count on trading a 2nd and ending up with a Giguere or a Kiprusoff.

 

[Seachd]

he likes Ovechkin more than Nash...ooooookay

I'm sure many people do.

 

[Jacob]

Stupid freaking question here, but I don't see any fields or links to submit my question. Even with my firewall turned off, I see nothing.

 

[Slats432]

Later in the draft your chances of finding a goalie are reduced. People love to trot out where Kipper, Turco, Miller, etc were picked but that is certainly the exception. I could just as easily trot out Kim Johnsson or Datsyuk or Zetterberg using the same logic as to why you shouldn't take skaters in the first round.

I think some people have underrated how much goalie scouting has improved lately and how much goalie coaches can make an impact. It seems to me that most of the goalies taken in the past 5 years early are still top prospects or were thought to be questionable picks at the time (Munro to CHI comes to mind). And I don't see a lot of teams finding many Luongo's, Lehtinen's or Fleury's late in the draft.

Despite the long development time it's still the most important position. Teams have gone years and years without finding a good solution for their starting goalie, I know because Calgary was one of them after making the mistake of taking Kidd instead of Brodeur. I don't think you can count on getting a goalie late and I don't think any team can count on trading a 2nd and ending up with a Giguere or a Kiprusoff.

Obviously we aren't going to change each other's minds FDW. Using the previous management of Calgary as your guide to why you should draft a goalie in the first round is flawed. There have only been a few first round goaltenders that have gone on to any amount of success since 1990, and that is Brodeur, Giguere(After being given up on by a couple of franchises.), Biron to some extent and Luongo. Rarely will you find the best goaltender in a draft year selected as the first goaltender that year. If I am playing the odds, I will draft a couple of goaltenders throughout the draft and let my goalie development staff do the rest.

Again with the caveat that a very highly rated goalie falls to a point where you can't refuse. Montoya at 21 is a pretty solid pick. Montoya at 7-10 would make me disappointed if my favourite team drafted him.

Here is another one. I am starting to feel more and more that Jimmy Howard and Marc Andre Fleury won't end up being that far apart. If I was Pittsburgh and I could go back and time and select Staal, Howard over Fleury, Stone, I would be a very happy guy.

 

[Rahan]

Stupid freaking question here, but I don't see any fields or links to submit my question. Even with my firewall turned off, I see nothing.

It's because they disabled it. The chat is either over or they have hundreds of questions coming up.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Excellent chat IMO. One thing I like about Woodlief is his willingness to go into great detail with his answers. Nothing superficial with this guy. I'm glad he finally answered a question about Schremp, although I think he underrates his skating ability, and question his comments about his size.

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Again with the caveat that a very highly rated goalie falls to a point where you can't refuse. Montoya at 21 is a pretty solid pick. Montoya at 7-10 would make me disappointed if my favourite team drafted him.

Here is another one. I am starting to feel more and more that Jimmy Howard and Marc Andre Fleury won't end up being that far apart. If I was Pittsburgh and I could go back and time and select Staal, Howard over Fleury, Stone, I would be a very happy guy.

Fair enough. But with quotes like...

"We are going to give Cam Ward a good opportunity to get one of the spots," Rutherford said of the Hurricanes' 2002 first-round pick. "He had such an exceptional year [31-16-8 with a 2.05 GAA for Red Deer of the Western Hockey League]. I'm always cautious about first-round players. But if you compare him to [the New York Islanders' Rick] DiPietro or [Pittsburgh's Marc-Andre] Fleury or [the New York Rangers' Dan] Blackburn, Cam Ward has a chance to make the team. ?

"If we take a goalie with our first pick and sign him, we'll have two very good young goalies. [Michigan's Al] Montoya or [Czech star Marek] Schwartz, we would have them rated as '1' and '1-A.' Both are legitimate picks in the top eight."

http://www.herald-sun.com/sports/18-493724.html

And Waddell saying a goalie would be under serious consideration at 10, the rumours the Panthers like Montoya, etc it seems silly that knowledgable posters on here and the official HF staff mock draft refuses to see that these goalies aren't going to last very long. Montoya at 21 is pure fantasy IMO.

As for Howard vs Fleury, time will tell. I'm not sure many regard Howard as high as you do (or perhaps Fleury as low as you do).

 

[Slats432]

Fair enough. But with quotes like...

"We are going to give Cam Ward a good opportunity to get one of the spots," Rutherford said of the Hurricanes' 2002 first-round pick. "He had such an exceptional year [31-16-8 with a 2.05 GAA for Red Deer of the Western Hockey League]. I'm always cautious about first-round players. But if you compare him to [the New York Islanders' Rick] DiPietro or [Pittsburgh's Marc-Andre] Fleury or [the New York Rangers' Dan] Blackburn, Cam Ward has a chance to make the team. ?

"If we take a goalie with our first pick and sign him, we'll have two very good young goalies. [Michigan's Al] Montoya or [Czech star Marek] Schwartz, we would have them rated as '1' and '1-A.' Both are legitimate picks in the top eight."

http://www.herald-sun.com/sports/18-493724.html

And Waddell saying a goalie would be under serious consideration at 10, the rumours the Panthers like Montoya, etc it seems silly that knowledgable posters on here and the official HF staff mock draft refuses to see that these goalies aren't going to last very long. Montoya at 21 is pure fantasy IMO.

As for Howard vs Fleury, time will tell. I'm not sure many regard Howard as high as you do (or perhaps Fleury as low as you do).

Sure, I agree with the fact that some people might make the sexy pick for a flashy forward, but you never know with these things. I speak from personal assessment only.

Remember, Waddell also said this "Now saying that, if all positions were equal, if we have a forward, defenseman and goalie, I have to think the goalie would be the third option of course."

That goes for anyone that thinks their goaltending future is OK. If the Canes had someone else in the organization they liked besides Ward, maybe they would be able to pass over a goaltender for a forward as well.

And I am not disputing that some teams will make the choice to make the selection.(and certain HF Staff in the draft probably don't want to take a chance on a goalie in the first round mentality, which I do as well) I know about passing over the goalies in the HF Staff Mock. I had to do it twice. (I drafted on behalf of Chicago and for Dallas) I can see Montoya and Schwartz going to any of PHO, NYR, FLO, MIN, CAR, LA, EDM, NSH...which means that both are gone by 15. For myself, I had one early pick in CHI and wasn't taking a goalie top 3. And Dallas has Ellis, Bacashihua and Mike Smith with a younger Turco in net.

You would have to ask each individual why they passed on the goalie, but I would have to agree with you that both Montoya and Schwarz will be both gone before 21.

 

[Chili]

Everyone seems to have their own development timetable but just looking around the league, I'd say the norm for a goaler to 'arrive' is 22-24 yrs old. There are those youngsters who not only have the talent to play in the NHL but the mental makeup to endure the pressure that goes with it. Andrew Raycroft did a nice job in Boston this year. Others who would fall in the 22-24 category: Giguere, Theodore, Luongo, Brodeur, Thibault, Richter, Potvin, Osgood. Tom Barrasso and Patrick Roy were even younger. Kolzig was about the oldest I found at 28 before he became a #1 goaler.

Having seen Montoya play at the WJC's I would not be disappointed with him as a first rounder at all.

On Fleury...he was mishandled last year, too much movement, too much too soon. I'm not exactly faulting the Pens either. Fleury's play and the desire to appease their fans forced their hand. He played great for a month or so and then started losing some confidence behind the leaky Pens defence. That's when he should have been sent back to junior but instead ended up in the pressure cooker of the WJC's. He then went down to a team that had high expectations to reach the memorial cup but that didn't work out. And then a pretty poor decision was made, in my opinion, to throw him into the AHL playoffs. It was not a good development year for him and I hope that he is left somewhere all of next season, either the AHL or junior, to develop at his own pace.

 

[Boomhower]

I'm glad he finally answered a question about Schremp, although I think he underrates his skating ability, and question his comments about his size.

The comments about Schremp's skating are more than fair. Why do you think Schremp was so ineffective producing at even strength this season, scoring just 12 goals and 16 assists (28 points) in 63 games. His speed isn't a weapon that he can create with. The majority of his goals and points came on the powerplay where the defense is playing off of him and he has time and space to use his skills... at even strength he doesn't have the wheels or willingness to play in high traffic areas to utilize his stickhandleing, passing and shot. If a players skating is average in junior, it's safe to assume it'll be an obstacle in the pros.

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

To continue the discussion on the goalies going high I present to you exhibit's A and B...

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/...n24,0,3166799.story?coll=sfla-sports-panthers

Article discussing that the Panthers would love a goalie but aren't sure one of the big two will be there at #7.

http://www.slam.ca/Slam040624/nhl_edm-sun.html

"INSIDE STUFF

If Jeff Deslauriers wasn't signed, the Oilers would jump at Dubnyk 14th. As it stands, there's no chance of getting him 25th. Several teams want goaltenders and Marek Schwarz, Al Montoya and Dubnyk will all go in the top 20. What to do?"

 

[Pwnasaurus]

The comments about Schremp's skating are more than fair. Why do you think Schremp was so ineffective producing at even strength this season, scoring just 12 goals and 16 assists (28 points) in 63 games. His speed isn't a weapon that he can create with. The majority of his goals and points came on the powerplay where the defense is playing off of him and he has time and space to use his skills... at even strength he doesn't have the wheels or willingness to play in high traffic areas to utilize his stickhandleing, passing and shot. If a players skating is average in junior, it's safe to assume it'll be an obstacle in the pros.

That's a heckuva good point.

 

[Slats432]

To continue the discussion on the goalies going high I present to you exhibit's A and B...

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/...n24,0,3166799.story?coll=sfla-sports-panthers

Article discussing that the Panthers would love a goalie but aren't sure one of the big two will be there at #7.

http://www.slam.ca/Slam040624/nhl_edm-sun.html

"INSIDE STUFF

If Jeff Deslauriers wasn't signed, the Oilers would jump at Dubnyk 14th. As it stands, there's no chance of getting him 25th. Several teams want goaltenders and Marek Schwarz, Al Montoya and Dubnyk will all go in the top 20. What to do?"

1. "Would be willing to select" and "would love a goalie" are two different things.

2. If Deslauriers wasn't signed the Oilers would have ZERO NONE NADA top goaltending prospects in the organization. Nonsensical talk here FDW. If Carolina didn't have Ward, I could GUARANTEE them selecting a goalie. If Phoenix didn't have Leneveu, I could GUARANTEE them selecting a goalie. If Minny didn't have Harding I could GUARANTEE them selecting a goalie. That line is a no brainer.

As far as the supporting argument on the other side http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/draft2004/columns/story?columnist=kelley_jim&id=1827240

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

I don't really see that as an argument for them going lower this year. I still insist that goalies will go high and that it could surprise some posters here (not saying you're one of them.)

 

[Slats432]

I don't really see that as an argument for them going lower this year. I still insist that goalies will go high and that it could surprise some posters here (not saying you're one of them.)

FDW, there is no doubt that this year, Montoya and Schwarz should be gone by mid first round.(With all that has been said this year.) As for the article, you look at the league today and how many first round goaltenders find success over goalies drafted elsewhere, because the development time is usually far longer and harder to predict. If we are talking only about predicting this year and not the philosophy of drafting goalies in the first round, in my mind you are correct.

 

[Oilers Chick]

I liked (and agreed with) what Woodlief had to say about David Brown. I saw Brown several times throughout this past season. The only thing I'd add (and I think I mentioned this already), is I'd like to see him be more consistent as far as playing at the top of his. While he demonstrated that early and into the midway through last season, he didn't play that way towards the end of the season. I realize that he's going to have those occasional "off" nights where he's not playing well, but I'm hoping that he'll be able to bring that great play that he had in the first half of last season to the team (Notre Dame) again this season and do so from beginning to end of the season (including post-season play).

 

[Chili]

I wasn't knocking David Brown in my post above, I've never seen him play. What I was questioning was his comparative comments on Corey Crawford (who I have seen), who like Brown, just stops the puck consistently.

Mr Woodlief is quoted in the Chicago Herald today playing down the Hawks goaltending prospects (which includes Crawford) and praising Brown. Time will tell on his projections.