Another dual-citizen switches sides (Jason Bailey)

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Epsilon

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Oct 26, 2002
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Sometimes I find a lot of people in Canada want to have their cake and eat it too. One of the better examples of this actually comes from golf rather than hockey: Stephen Ames gets referred to by the media as a Canadian golfer because he lives in Calgary, even though he's from Trinidad and Tobego. At the same time, Mike Weir is called a Canadian golfer because he's from Ontario, even though he lives in Utah.
 

Canadian Chris

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Epsilon said:
Sometimes I find a lot of people in Canada want to have their cake and eat it too. One of the better examples of this actually comes from golf rather than hockey: Stephen Ames gets referred to by the media as a Canadian golfer because he lives in Calgary, even though he's from Trinidad and Tobego. At the same time, Mike Weir is called a Canadian golfer because he's from Ontario, even though he lives in Utah.
But Ames actually has Canadian Citizenship now, and I'm pretty sure would opt to represent Canada in Match play, or any other sort of international 'tourny' persai if he was given the choice.

With regards to this player...good for him. If it helps him move along in his career then why not right? I mean, if you, as a Canadian could get further ahead in your choice of work by moving to the states and working, would you not? I know I would.
 

Papa Smurf

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Epsilon said:
Sometimes I find a lot of people in Canada want to have their cake and eat it too. One of the better examples of this actually comes from golf rather than hockey: Stephen Ames gets referred to by the media as a Canadian golfer because he lives in Calgary, even though he's from Trinidad and Tobego. At the same time, Mike Weir is called a Canadian golfer because he's from Ontario, even though he lives in Utah.

Ames recently recieved Canadian citizenship, they had mentioned this just after he won the tournament in Chicago on ABC, they mentioned it after reffering him as Canadian.

Mike Weir is not a US citizen.

I doesn't matter if you simply live in another country. My parents were born in Italy and they do not have Canadian citizenships, therefore they are not yet Canadians.
 

Jamie

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Although I consider myself quite the huge Canadian hockey fan, I have aboslutely no problem with a kid going elsewhere to play. Statsny played for team Canada at one point, and I don't think anyone minded did they? I was born in Alberta, and lived there for 8 years, and I still consider myself an Albertan, even though I've lived in BC a lot longer than that. Everyone has the right to do what they want and some people need to stop looking down on athletes for representing certain country's for whatever there reasons may be.
 

db23

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Peter Nedved played for the Canadian Olympic team. Soccer player Owen Hargreaves had a choice of three different countries to play for in international tournaments.

Bailey made his choice because the NTDP is a top notch training program and is in the same town as his future college team. Do you think he should go live in some mining town in Northern Ontario for the next 4 years just so he can wear the Maple Leaf? Would you do it?
 

cdnhky1

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Who said anything about living in some mining town in Northern Ontario. The kid lives in Ottawa and was drafted by the 67's. If he played in the OHL he'd play in his home town. Bailey has always been a bit of a malcontent. He led the 67's on as well making them think he was interested in playing in the OHL and then walking out of training camp without even telling them he was leaving.

Overall, I don't blame the kid for going to the US program. If he wants to play international hockey he's not going to do it for Canada. He was a fourth line player on Team Ontario and wasn't among the top 40 players invited to the National u-18 camp. Like those before him, he's simply going with the odds which favour him making the US team over the Canadian team.
 

ktownhockey

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Captain Conservative said:
Still bitter over the WJC loss? :yo:


Go USA Hockey!

Congradulations...... it will be your only win ever at this tournament :yo: to that

thank MAF for that win buddy and 3 dual citizens..... not making excuses though :banana:
 

ktownhockey

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us88team said:
They are mad because people want to play in america and not canada. If it was the other way around and we said something then you would tell us to stop whining. :bow:

It never happens like that though... the Canadian hockey players who play for American teams are marrying american woman and their kids are starting to play for the USA. I don't like this for hockey Canada in abour 20 years :banghead:
 

cdnhky1

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I wouldn't worry about the future of Canadian hockey too much. Based on the number of people who play the game in this country, the passion for the game, and the resources at our disposal (ie; # of rinks) Canada will always be among the elite hockey nations. If Canada ever gets serious about player development (emphasis on development over winning in minor hockey) we will blow everyone out, as many European coaches will tell you.
 

VOB

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cdnhky1 said:
I wouldn't worry about the future of Canadian hockey too much. Based on the number of people who play the game in this country, the passion for the game, and the resources at our disposal (ie; # of rinks) Canada will always be among the elite hockey nations. If Canada ever gets serious about player development (emphasis on development over winning in minor hockey) we will blow everyone out, as many European coaches will tell you.


You are right on the money with that quote cdnhky1. Both Canada and the U.S. probably have a combined player pool of a million or so players. This is three times the number of all European countries combined yet the Europeans do far more with far less. It is amazing that a small country like Slovakia can compete with a U.S. or Canada. It seems we are dropping the ball somewhere in between the 9 to 15 year old range, where to much emphasis is placed on winning at the expense of development.

As for the Bailey situation, I think Funkymoses was bang on with his assessment that the primary reason he chose to play for the NTDP was not to turn his back on his country but rather to be close to the college he will be playing for next season and develop in a much better competative environment than where he was previously playing.
 

Postman

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ktownhockey said:
thank MAF for that win buddy and 3 dual citizens..... not making excuses though :banana:

What does that have to do with anything?

Patrick Eaves - born in Calgary when his dad played there, but grew up in the U.S., and considers himself American.

Patrick O'Sullivan - born in Canada while he was on vacation there. Grew up in the U.S. and even despises the fact that he was born in Canada. Considers himself 100% American.

The above two are like saying "thank Germany for Dany Heatley" or "thank Brazil for Robyn Regehr".

Brady Murray - The only one you can really ***** about for having any ties to Canada. Even then, he's spent most of his life in the U.S. and considers himself American. Not that he had a whole lot to do with the win anyway.
 

Epsilon

#basta
Oct 26, 2002
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Canadian_man said:
Ames recently recieved Canadian citizenship, they had mentioned this just after he won the tournament in Chicago on ABC, they mentioned it after reffering him as Canadian.

Mike Weir is not a US citizen.

I doesn't matter if you simply live in another country. My parents were born in Italy and they do not have Canadian citizenships, therefore they are not yet Canadians.

The Canadian media has been counting Ames as a Canadian for years though, not just since he got citizenship. Yzerman and Shanahan both got US citizenship last year, does anyone call them Americans?
 

Papa Smurf

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Epsilon said:
The Canadian media has been counting Ames as a Canadian for years though, not just since he got citizenship. Yzerman and Shanahan both got US citizenship last year, does anyone call them Americans?

Yes but Larionov is a Canadian citizen but we don't consider him Canadian.
 

Rabid Ranger

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VOB said:
You are right on the money with that quote cdnhky1. Both Canada and the U.S. probably have a combined player pool of a million or so players. This is three times the number of all European countries combined yet the Europeans do far more with far less. It is amazing that a small country like Slovakia can compete with a U.S. or Canada. It seems we are dropping the ball somewhere in between the 9 to 15 year old range, where to much emphasis is placed on winning at the expense of development.

As for the Bailey situation, I think Funkymoses was bang on with his assessment that the primary reason he chose to play for the NTDP was not to turn his back on his country but rather to be close to the college he will be playing for next season and develop in a much better competative environment than where he was previously playing.


I don't think it's a coincidence that ever since the USNTDP program was started the U.S. has had more success in international tournaments. That being said, overall depth doesn't matter as much when you can only ice one team in a tournament. So, when Canada's "best" plays Slovakia's "best" it's much closer than the overall depth the two countries have would indicate.
 
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Riggs

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Apr 6, 2004
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Everyone is acting like Bailey has already made the U.S. team.

Personally, I feel you should play for the Country in which your were trained.


thank MAF for that win buddy and 3 dual citizens

That game was not MAF's fault, there was 5 other (100% Canadian) players on the ice at any given time - not counting penalties.
 

degroat*

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ktownhockey said:
Congradulations...... it will be your only win ever at this tournament :yo: to that

All you just did was confirm that you're still bitter.
 

cdnhky1

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Rabid Ranger; I don't usually agree with your opinions but I think you're bang on with your assessment of the USNTDP. I'm always amazed at the number of Americans who are against this program. In Europe, hockey is a much more elitist sport. It is not a game of the masses. The Europeans focus on identifying top talent early, for example, players that could eventually represent them internationally, attempt to separate them from the masses and provide them with the absolute best coaching and training environment possible.

In Canada, it is the opposite. Everyone plays the game and the quality of the coaching at the developmental level is for the most part very poor. In Europe, the best coaches coach at the minor hockey level. In Canada, we'll allow anyone whose taken a weekend certification course to step behind the bench. As a result, most of our top players receive their coaching from a coach who is probably much better at his day job than he is at teaching them how to play and think the game. Even at the Midget and Junior levels, it is amazing how many great players receive very poor coaching.

I think the US is somewhere in between. The game in the US is certainly more elitist than it is in Canada, but not to the extent of the European game. However, young Americans who play in an elite minor hockey program such as Honeybaked or the California Wave receive better coaching, for the most part, than Canada's top young players. With the USNTDP, USA hockey has simply recognized that only a select few players will ever been in the position to represent their nation internationally. The key is to make sure those players are identified and are provided with elite coaching and training opportunities so that they don't slip through the cracks. It is definitely paying dividends. I would like to see Hockey Canada develop a similar program, but only on a provincial or regional basis with u-16 and perhaps u-15 teams.

I think they trick is to make the pool or potential players as large as possible in the early years. However, when the players are approaching junior and college hockey the key is to identify and separate the top players and make sure that they are as well prepared as possible for international competition.
 

Rabid Ranger

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cdnhky1 said:
Rabid Ranger; I don't usually agree with your opinions but I think you're bang on with your assessment of the USNTDP. I'm always amazed at the number of Americans who are against this program. In Europe, hockey is a much more elitist sport. It is not a game of the masses. The Europeans focus on identifying top talent early, for example, players that could eventually represent them internationally, attempt to separate them from the masses and provide them with the absolute best coaching and training environment possible.

In Canada, it is the opposite. Everyone plays the game and the quality of the coaching at the developmental level is for the most part very poor. In Europe, the best coaches coach at the minor hockey level. In Canada, we'll allow anyone whose taken a weekend certification course to step behind the bench. As a result, most of our top players receive their coaching from a coach who is probably much better at his day job than he is at teaching them how to play and think the game. Even at the Midget and Junior levels, it is amazing how many great players receive very poor coaching.

I think the US is somewhere in between. The game in the US is certainly more elitist than it is in Canada, but not to the extent of the European game. However, young Americans who play in an elite minor hockey program such as Honeybaked or the California Wave receive better coaching, for the most part, than Canada's top young players. With the USNTDP, USA hockey has simply recognized that only a select few players will ever been in the position to represent their nation internationally. The key is to make sure those players are identified and are provided with elite coaching and training opportunities so that they don't slip through the cracks. It is definitely paying dividends. I would like to see Hockey Canada develop a similar program, but only on a provincial or regional basis with u-16 and perhaps u-15 teams.

I think they trick is to make the pool or potential players as large as possible in the early years. However, when the players are approaching junior and college hockey the key is to identify and separate the top players and make sure that they are as well prepared as possible for international competition.



Well, I don't think there's any doubt that Canada is in the best position of any of the major hockey powers to maintain the number one position. Dominance would be exerted more forcefully, if as you suggest there was a more organized, national approach to directing the country's top talent.
 
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