An AP article on Southern California and hockey

[Randall Graves*]

Your entire statement is ALL anecdotal.

Look at the Kings attendance (16k+ past year, 17k year before that, etc)
Look at the Ducks attendance (16k+ last two years)
Look at the number of youth and Adult ice hockey leagues (El Segundo, Valencia, Culver, Norwalk, Pickwick, and several in Orange County)
Look at the amount of inline leagues
Look at NHLers who hail from California (a number that continues to grow)


WHY DOES HOCKEY HAVE TO HAVE "CULTURAL MAJORITY" IN A CITY TO BE CONSIDERED A SUCCESS?

SoCal is NOT Canada. It is not Maine. It is not Minnesota.

Yes, the percentage may be small ---- but the numbers, the revenues, the amount of youth playing, all ADD UP TO A SUCCESSFUL MARKET.

This notion that b/c it's only a small fraction of the 17 million people makes it a lousy market is horsesh!t.

I've been on this board for about 3 months now. I simply cannot get over how NEGATIVE the majority of people are around here about markets that fall outside of Canada, Minnesota, or the Northeast. It's a shame b/c hockey is a GREAT sport and being positive in new and non-traditional markets only betters the game and its fans.

-t

Alot of these people don't care about that, they don't care that every year the state of California continues to increase the amount of kids playing youth hockey(and they win national tournaments btw) or that a team fills it's arena to 95 percent capacity and sells out 34 straight games. It does not matter to these people they will nitpick any negative they can find.

 

[kingpest19]

Isn't the Kings attendance number kind of inflated? I've heard that Lakers season tickets buyers are forced to buy Kings season tickets as well, but the person who said that could've been mistaken.

Dont know where that came from but its untrue. Only reason basketball seast would be sold with hockey seats is buying a premier seat or a suite. Other than that the tickets are sold by the team.

 

[jsginsocal]

Lets be real here. Or havent you noticed that other half of the population in Southern California that watches MLS?

I hope you are kidding with the whole Lakers > Galaxy > Dodgers ..... the galaxy are probably less popular then high school womens softball....

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

It's easy to grow youth hockey in places like CA because you are growing from a tiny number to a slightly bigger number. To illustrate this in easy numbers, if you go from 1 to 2 you just doubled your share but it's still a very small number. If we imagine youth football, youth softball/baseball, youth basketball and youth soccer all at a value of 100, hockey could double it's number every year for 5 years and it'd still be at a much lower level than them. And the higher the number climbs the closer you get to the ceiling and the more difficult it becomes to further grow. It's the same mechanism at work that explains why poor countries often have higher economic growth than industrialized countries.

The negatives are regional TV ratings which are much better way to measure general support than anything else really because it measures the casual support as well and not just the hardcore fans . The Stanley Cup-clinching game of the Ducks drew a 6.0 rating in its market which I am told is a very good if not record-breaking figure. Of course that figure is for a championship-clinching game on network television and is still lower than the share early round playoff games get on cable in other markets. If I recall correctly the local numbers for the first few games in the Finals which were only on cable were horrible enough to pass for NHL national numbers. That exposes the cold hard truth that hockey as a sport and the NHL as a league is marginal in Southern California.

Also, the Ducks' relative success with fans this year has to be seen in context, it's easy to enjoy some success even in a marginal market if the team is a winning one and everyone knows Southern California responds more strongly to teams' success or lack of it than most other markets. I recall hearing the Ducks' name amongst relocation candidates just a few years ago and aren't the Ducks just at this point in time complaining about large losses?

 

[SoCalPredFan]

The Ducks have been in existence for 14 years and are in Orange County (which is not Los Angeles).

Even the Sens had trouble during a portion of their 14+ years in the NHL.

To highlight the Ducks alone, you're conviently omitting the LA Kings and their 40 years of hockey history in actual Los Angeles -- not Anaheim.

The Kings get great support --- whether they win or not. I don't have access to Fox Sports TV ratings for the Kings --- but it really doesn't matter b/c no matter what I say to claim SoCal as a decent market, I'll get shot down.

The majority on this board simply refuse to accept non-traditional and/or warm market clubs. I don't get it, and am going to stop trying. In the meantime, I'm going to continue to be a die hard Nashville Preds fan and continue to support Kings and Ducks hockey here locally.

Three cheers for warm climates winning the past 3 cups. May the Cup stay out of Canada for another 14 years!

-t

EDITED TO ADD:
I'm also going to continue to be positive about our great game of hockey, invite new viewers to games, and attempt to grow the sport in whatever way I can.

 

[Jazz]

Counter article: http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/playoffs2007/columns/story?columnist=frei_terry&id=2897840

"We used to have season tickets and we used to go to the Forum," Clarke told me. "I had the purple jersey and the Kings pucks and sticks and everything. I started skating at the public rink in La Brea and took some lessons and hooked up with a team. I stuck with it."

Multiply Clarke, who became the first Southern California native to score a goal for the Kings in March, by the thousands.

Or buy and watch "In the Crease," the movie about the California Wave Bantam AAA travel team from the program that has produced Robbie Earl, the former Wisconsin star and current Maple Leafs prospect; 2005 Hobey Baker award finalist Brett Sterling; Jonathan Blum of the Vancouver Giants, who is expected to go in the first round of this month's next week; and dozens of other United States Hockey League and major junior players.

There always was hockey "interest" in the Southlands, whether it involved Los Angeles-area natives or the huge waves of transplants who first paid attention to the game as diehard fans of the Bruins, Red Wings, Rangers ...

Gretzky's influence, while huge, is only part of an inevitable growth being played out elsewhere in such places as Dallas, where StarCenter rinks are so numerous, visitors coming in for youth tournaments often end up at the wrong one; Denver, where rink construction and participation have boomed and the NCAA powerhouse University of Denver program now has Colorado natives as stars; and the Miami area.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

The point I made was that it's not a "strong" market. It's not the worst or even one of the worst three markets in the league either but it's just not a "strong" market. A team in a "strong" market gets better TV ratings, more public attention for the team but also the league overall. A "strong" market would have a frickin parade after winning the Cup and not a meeting in a parking lot.

 

[Bixby Snyder]

The team should have been named the LA Ducks of Anahiem, that probably would have increased the Ducks exposure in the local media.

 

[GSC2k2*]

GC and IB will find this hilarious....

So if I go to an NHL game I'm likely to see a huge number of puck bunnies? You'd think that fact alone would increase the 18-35 yr old male attendance rates.

Indeed. Indeed I do.

 

[EbencoyE]

I believe the majority of the youth team champions at last year's USA Hockey National Championships were out of Southern California.

That right there shows it will be a great market in the future. Probably produce some pretty good talent too. Infact, Southern California is already sending many players to Junior and College teams.

 

[Randall Graves*]

It's not a "strong following" if it's a tiny percentage of the population, no matter how big the population is. Less than 1% means fringe, whether it's out of 1 million or 10 million. There is a following but that's it. And of course it's hurt by the fact there's two teams because it means even amongst the hardcore base that does exist there's a split.

You can go to SoCal today and you'd have to go out of your way to hear about the Ducks winning the Cup. In most traditional markets the entire city goes nuts when the team merely makes the Cup Final nevermind wins it, in SoCal (almost) nobody gives a damn if a team wins the Cup. As the guy said the hockey teams are the least popular major sports teams out there.

There is potential yes, but potential needs to be realized, at the moment the NHL is losing viewership not gaining it however. The trend seems to go in the opposite direction, not the one you seem so set to believe in.

And with regards to the demographics, hockey is for better or worse mostly a white sport and you just have to go to a NHL game and look at the players, refs, announcers and audiences to see that. No surprise either as hockey is rooted in Canada and in the U.S. in New England and the Upper Midwest - areas that outside the inner cities tend to be almost entirely white. That's the cultural heartland of hockey.

Now it's difficult enough to even sell this sport to Americans south of a certain point, what are the odds that immigrants from countries that are even further South and come from a culture to which hockey is entirely alien would embrace it? Especially if the sports they primarily like, soccer and baseball, can all be followed in their new home as well? Heck there's a Mexico-based soccer club with its own LA branch now. And it's not like the environment of Los Angeles would in any way entice people to watch hockey, you can live your entire life there without knowing there is such a thing as hockey. If the same people migrated to Canada it might be a different story but these are people who care zero about hockey moving to a place where hockey interest is almost zero. It seems pretty obvious that this would work against hockey.

The NHL is gaining viewership in Southern California, ducks ratings were nearly double less than half way through the season, and in the finals game 5 peaked at nearly 1 million households so clearly potential is here.

 

[FissionFire]

SoCal's market deserves a hockey team. There is a good hockey culture in the area and it will only grow. The only mistake the NHL made really was in putting a second franchise in the area prematurely to get Disney involved. Instead of becoming a great marketing force for the league, Disney named the team after an Emilio Estevez movie and made the entire sport the punchline of jokes and about as "uncool" of a thing as possible in the area. Even today the Ducks (and to a lesser extent the Kings) are fighting against that perception. SoCal CAN support two teams eventually, but then and now weren't the right time. That being said, they are both there now and unless someone on these boards has a couple hundred million lying around to buy and move an NHL franchise they are both staying put. Granted neither team is pulling in the big gate numbers or charging nearly the same as the "traditional" markets, but they are getting people to the games nonetheless. It might take 50 years before they are ready to challenge for consistent top 5 spots in gate revenue or merchandise sales, but it will eventually happen.

P.S.: Lighten up SoCal fans. If the best the media can sling at you is a tired "your fans suck" line feel happy. I still have to deal with the same tired, misinformed "hope Detroit doesn't win or they'll burn the city down" crap because of the Tigers in 1984. The fact that Chicago had looting when the Bulls were winning or the riots of the Avalanche Cups seems to be forgotten.....

 

[Fourier]

SoCalPredFan:

You are trying to convince people about the success of hockey in
Southern California who see things on a completely different scale than you do.

Let's look at some of your evidence...

-Look at the number of youth and Adult ice hockey leagues (El Segundo, Valencia, Culver, Norwalk, Pickwick, and several in Orange County)
-Look at the amount of inline leagues...

Here is an article that suggests that the number of minor hockey
players in Southern California is roughly 3600. I cannot verify the
accuracy but the author seems to know what she is talking about.

http://www.afterthewhistle.com/en/FeatureStories/Commentary/california.htm

In comparison, there are roughly 550,000 kids in minor hockey in Canada
despite a population of only about 2 times that of Southern California.
Current registration is behind that of PEI which has a population of about
140,000.

The article also does a nice job of outlining some of the obstacles to further
growth for participation in Southertn California. To be fair many of these issues
also apply in Canada and have resulted in a significant number of kids
moving from hockey to soccer.


You are right that there is room to grow, but is it realistic to believe that
these numbers would even triple in the next ten years. (Remember, some of
these SoCal leagues have been around for a while and the Gretzky era is over.)
Even if the number tripled in the next ten years you would still only out number
Newfoundland and PEI

Look at NHLers who hail from California (a number that continues to grow)

According to the NHL's official website here are the players with NHL affiliations that
were born in California and are currently playing hockey.

JEREMY STEVENSON, NOAH CLARKE, RYAN HOLLWEG, BROOKS ORPIK, and BRIAN SALCIDO

Unfortunately, you are out-matched in both quantity and quality by Saskatoon.

You ask...

WHY DOES HOCKEY HAVE TO HAVE "CULTURAL MAJORITY" IN A CITY TO BE CONSIDERED A SUCCESS?

Answer: It doesn't. However, when you quote a 1% rate you will not win many converts on this side of the border.

The reality is that there have been success stories in Southern Cal and there
will continue to be. However, how you measure success is quite different
in an area like Southern Cal than it would be in almost any Canadian region.
This is not something to be ashamed of. I think that amature football is a great
success in Alberta. However, by Texas or California standards we are
not even on the map. So be it. We all tend to view the world in the context of our own experience.

Look at the Kings attendance (16k+ past year, 17k year before that, etc)
Look at the Ducks attendance (16k+ last two years)

I would say that the NHL has a solid footing in SoCal. However, the jury will be out
on markets like Nashville for quite some time. This is`not exclusive of only
US locations as we all know. However, many of us in Canada see "the grow the game"
argument equating to "NHL hockey is not for you" while we are seldom presented
with evidence that this strategy has been a success. As such, we end up with
the "pi##### wars " that we`are seeing in these threads.

SoCal is NOT Canada. It is not Maine. It is not Minnesota.

Yes, the percentage may be small ---- but the numbers, the revenues, the amount of youth playing, all ADD UP TO A SUCCESSFUL MARKET.

With the right definition of success, I would agree.

I've been on this board for about 3 months now. I simply cannot get over how NEGATIVE the majority of people are around here about markets that fall outside of Canada, Minnesota, or the Northeast. It's a shame b/c hockey is a GREAT sport and being positive in new and non-traditional markets only betters the game and its fans.

-t

Agreed. But this does not mean that there is no more room to grow in traditional markets.

 

[MojoJojo]

I hope you are kidding with the whole Lakers > Galaxy > Dodgers ..... the galaxy are probably less popular then high school womens softball....

Less popular than womens softball among whites, sure, no one watches MLS. My point: about half the population of Southern California is Hispanic. They come from a culture in which Soccer is by far the dominant sport, and that is being passed from generation to generation.

 

[SoCalPredFan]

SoCalPredFan:

You are trying to convince people about the success of hockey in
Southern California who see things on a completely different scale than you do.

Let's look at some of your evidence...

Fourier, I appreciate your reply. Thank you for responding in an intellectual manner as opposed to simply flaming me.

You're right --- "success" is all context. I grew up partly in Minnesota. "Hockey" in Minnesota is not the same as it is in SoCal --- though the NHL and hockey in general is "successful" in both markets in its each market's context.

The problem I have is the Canadian media continually ripping markets like SoCal. Our market is not the same as yours. The number of players, the overall interest level, the culture of it all.

Why all of the constant negativity about our market (and others like it)?

We like hockey. It's growing in the region. Do we have to be at "Canada's level" to get respect?

There is a general attitude of elitism that persists among the Canadian media and some of the general fans above the 49th. It's as though b/c we're not at your level of interest, we should be laughed at and ignored.

It's frustrating and annoying.

 

[Fourier]

Fourier, I appreciate your reply. Thank you for responding in an intellectual manner as opposed to simply flaming me.

You're right --- "success" is all context. I grew up partly in Minnesota. "Hockey" in Minnesota is not the same as it is in SoCal --- though the NHL and hockey in general is "successful" in both markets in its each market's context.

The problem I have is the Canadian media continually ripping markets like SoCal. Our market is not the same as yours. The number of players, the overall interest level, the culture of it all.

Why all of the constant negativity about our market (and others like it)?

We like hockey. It's growing in the region. Do we have to be at "Canada's level" to get respect?

There is a general attitude of elitism that persists among the Canadian media and some of the general fans above the 49th. It's as though b/c we're not at your level of interest, we should be laughed at and ignored.

It's frustrating and annoying.

I do understand your frustration. However, if it helps I can assure you that the elitism you are experiencing now did not begin with the latest expansionin the US. As I said in another thread, I am from Edmonton. Even before the Oilers entered the NHL there were comments about how the NHL was making a mistake going to such a hick town. The comments that the market was too small to deserve a franchise have really never stopped. These have come from both sides of the border. In fact, we also had to put up with many reports from the US depicting Edmontonians
as eskimos and describing the city as a wasteland. At some point you need to
develop a thick enough skin to dismiss these as ingorance on the part of the author
and recognize that it is much easier to write this type of story than it is to do
the background to get the real goods.

If you want to see further examples of what I am talking look at the
thread on Quebec City where you will see individuals from Montreal
put down QC as being unworthy of an NHL team.

 

[NANDOAL]

+1

Hockey is growing in SoCal, and it will continue to grow.

I'm from Pittsburgh, and last month I was in So Cal. On our way from San Diego to LA I had to stop at the HockeyGiant Superstore in Anaheim. Well first off It was amazing. Best hockey store I'd ever been in. And secondly It was packed! I couldn't believe it. Hockey in So Cal (OC) at the grassroots level I feel is going to boom!

 

[The Korean*]

The point I made was that it's not a "strong" market. It's not the worst or even one of the worst three markets in the league either but it's just not a "strong" market. A team in a "strong" market gets better TV ratings, more public attention for the team but also the league overall. A "strong" market would have a frickin parade after winning the Cup and not a meeting in a parking lot.

He's got a point there.

At the moment its not a strong market, I agree.

But still, its a growing market. Thats what people are saying.

 

[FissionFire]

Is anyone seriously looking at the dates of the posts they are quoting?

 

[Captain Mittens*]

You quoted a post from June 07 and told him to quit?? What exactly are you trying to accomplish?

I want to make sure he isn't having any afterthoughts or thinking a George Costanza-like comeback

 

[The Korean*]

I just realized how old this thread was.

 

[mooseOAK*]

I'm from Pittsburgh, and last month I was in So Cal. On our way from San Diego to LA I had to stop at the HockeyGiant Superstore in Anaheim. Well first off It was amazing. Best hockey store I'd ever been in. And secondly It was packed! I couldn't believe it. Hockey in So Cal (OC) at the grassroots level I feel is going to boom!

Has been booming for a number of years now, in Northern California also.

 

[TheSchwab]

The Ducks should retire Parros' number when hes done.

 

[Enstrom39]

Why is their target the 22 year old male? The last time I checked, that guy doesn't have much of a disposable income, probably guzzles too much beer, and is a firmly entrenched football or baseball fan first.

The NHL has more female fans than any of the other sports, at ~40% of all fans. NHL fans have the highest education and income levels compared to the other leagues, and according to Bettman are early adopters of technology and the most tech savvy of all fan groups. Furthermore women are increasingly responsible for major purchase decisions in most American households, seeing that the majority now rely on two incomes anyway.

There may be some good reasons why everyone targets the 18-35 year old male.... I'd like to hear anyone else's ideas how this helps a league that needs 60% of its support from the corporate base (presumably to take clients out who typically aren't 22 year old males); a league that would like to have >75% of tickets in full season ticket packages, preferably at average prices in the $50-60 range. Ideas?

It's about developing "brand loyalties" among 22 year old men.

Why? Young men will make major purchases in the next 10 years. Even if married, the a male has a disproportionate influence on the brand of car, brand of TV, brand of computer, etc purchased.

If you're selling laundry detergent you don't advertise on NHL games. If you're selling washing machines--you don't it on NHL. if you're selling trucks, cars, beer, luxury cars (BMW, Volvo, Hummer) you advertise on NHL games.

The only sport the average 34 year old housewife might be aware of is the t-ball or soccer team little Jimmy is playing in.

To add to your point...ask that 34 year old housewife to name one current member of any Southern California sports team. My guess is that she:
1) be unable to come up with a name
2) name someone who is retired now
3) name someone who is now on a different team

Women are less likely to be sports fans. Women with children at home have even less free time for sports. So the paper talks to a person who is the most causal of sports fans--and surprise surprise--this busy suburban mom doesn't know anything bout the Ducks. Wow, color me not surprised.

 

[Enstrom39]

Alot of these people don't care about that, they don't care that every year the state of California continues to increase the amount of kids playing youth hockey(and they win national tournaments btw) or that a team fills it's arena to 95 percent capacity and sells out 34 straight games. It does not matter to these people they will nitpick any negative they can find.

The funny thing is that if hockey really became as popular in the USA as it is in Canada, then we would see a flood of USA born in the NHL.

Next the Canadian Press would switch to writing about "Is Canada losing control of 'our game' to the Americans" like they wrote after the Russian won several international tournaments in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s.

If the Canada Press can't whine about how unpopular hockey is in the USA, they will whine about how other "foreigners" are taking over "their game" so it's pretty much a no win situation for anyone south of the border.