All Time Draft First Round - Kansas City Scouts @ Seattle Metropolitans

Discussion in 'All Time Draft' started by kruezer, May 22, 2007.

  1. kruezer

    kruezer Registered User

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    First round matchup of the Foster Hewitt division.

    #3 Seattle Metropolitans

    Coach: Pete Green
    Captain: Alf Smith
    Assitant Captains: Rod Langway & Bob Bourne

    Michel Goulet - Bryan Trottier - Tim Kerr
    Alf Smith - Bernie Federko - Jaromir Jagr
    Rick Meagher - Brent Sutter - Gary Dornhoefer
    Peter McNab - Bob Bourne - Tiger Williams
    Thomas Steen

    Bill Gadsby - Brad McCrimmon
    Rod Langway - Barney Stanley
    Craig Ludwig - James Patrick
    Dick Redmond

    Chuck Gardiner
    Hap Holmes
    Richard Brodeur

    #6 Kansas City Scouts

    Coach: Fred Shero
    Captain: Chris Chelios
    Alternates: Dave Taylor, Craig MacTavish

    Dickie Moore (LW) - Bill Cowley (C) - Dave Taylor (RW)
    Harry Watson (LW) - Joe Primeau (C) - Dino Ciccarelli (RW)
    Ross Lonsberry (LW) - Craig MacTavish (C) - Floyd Curry (RW)
    John Ferguson (LW) - Mel Bridgman (C) - John McKenzie (RW)
    Dennis Maruk (C)

    Chris Chelios (D) - Phil Housley (D)
    Bill White (D) - Barclay Plager (D)
    "Bullet" Joe Simpson (D) - Jimmy Watson (D)
    George McNamara (D)

    Terry Sawchuk (G)
    Chris Osgood (G)
    Marty Turco (G)
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2007
  2. kruezer

    kruezer Registered User

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    I will post my analysis/tactics later on today, feel free to advise me as to how you wish to change your roster for this series if you so desire Pwn.
     
  3. Bear of Bad News

    Bear of Bad News HFBoards Escape Goat

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  4. Pwnasaurus

    Pwnasaurus Registered User

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    Lineup is the same as posted.

    Powerplay Unit #1: D.Moore-B.Cowley-D.Ciccarelli-C.Chelios-P.Housley
    Powerplay Unit #2: H.Watson-J.Primeau-J.McKenzie-D.Taylor-J.Simpson
    Penalty Killing Unit #1: F.Curry-C.MacTavish-C.Chelios-B.White
    Penalty Killing Unit #2: R.Lonsberry-M.Bridgman-B.Plager-J.Watson


    Analysis:

    Kansas City feels they have the edge in some key areas in this matchup.

    - Coaching:

    Pete Green's coaching career consisted of 6 seasons in which he was consistently given the class of the league to coach with and routinely found ways to lose while being the heavy favorite in a series. Ottawa added King Clancy and Frank Boucher to go along with Punch Broadbent and Cy Denney in 1921-22 and still managed to lose the championship. In 1923-24 his team had the NHL goal scoring leader….GAA leader and first Hart trophy winner and had another playoff letdown losing to the Canadiens. Seems to me he was all but handed the cup during an era where his teams were far and away the most talented on paper and his teams still had some dramatic playoff letdowns. We feel that Fred Shero has the ability to do much more with less as evidenced by his cup teams outworking and outbattling the opposition while Green's teams had all the talent in the world, literally, at the time and still found ways to lose titles. Can Green even be an effective coach in a long, grueling series where the talent is not lopsided in his favor?

    Defense:

    Seattle's #1 defenseman in Gadsby consistently had repeated playoff failures, while the Scouts #1 defenseman in Chelios captained 2 different original 6 franchises and won 2 Stanley Cup rings. We feel we have an edge on the blueline overall and we feel pre NHL roving type players like Stanley can be exposed defensively on a top 4 pairing even with Langway as his partner.

    Goaltending:

    We feel we have the best of any goaltending matchup with Sawchuk even though Gardiner is a quality #1 netminder. We feel Sawchuk's ability to steal games in a playoff series helps us in any matchup and unlike Gardiner who although played every game played during both the short season and short playoff era, we wonder if that will have an effect on his effectiveness come playoff time. Seeing as how there was no delination made when the regular season rankings were done, Kansas City is under the assumption Gardiner played the majority of his team's regular season games already to align such a high regular season ranking with the Seattle club and thus may suffer from postseason fatigue while adjusting to the higher number of games played than in his era.

    Special Teams:

    We feel like we don't lose much on the PK going from PK#1 to PK#2 which will be critical to stop both the Trotts PP and the Jagr PP. Our PP units will be deadly with 2 great d-men at the top and 2 HOF forwards and a 600+ goal scorer who will clean up anything in front. They will be very tough to defend against. We also don't lose much going from PP#1 to PP#2 with 2 HOF forwards, a HOF puck rushing D-man and another guy tough in close. They will also be tough on opposing PK units.

    Game Plan:

    The Scouts feel like we have an edge in this department as we feel Shero is a much more apt coach when given a makeup of roster such as his than Green is with his roster. While Seattle has an imposing force like Jagr on his 2nd line we feel like the Scouts have the ability to frustrate him by taking him out of his game mixing and matching lines against that line sometimes with the shutdown line and sometimes with the agitating line (in small doses) to play very physical against Jagr and pester him at all opportunity which is the most effective way to combat him. In terms of RW's we can throw at Jagr we have a shutdown winger in Floyd Curry, a two way forward in Taylor, a nasty, nasty human being who will routinely try to take shots at him in Ciccarelli and we have one of the alltime great agitators in McKenzie. We also feel a line like our 4th line (as well as guys like Ciccarelli) will agitate players like Alf Smith to no end, resulting in bad penalties for our opponent and thereby getting our deadly PP unit on the ice for extended time. Guys like MacTavish and Bridgman are more than capable of winning big faceoffs and providing that leadership late in the season that carries teams. The Scouts think their 1st line matches up in all facets with any team in the league and with a 2nd line featuring 2 HOFers, they don't lose much at all when the top line is getting a breather. The 3rd line is capable of shutting down any top line and carries a whopping 10 Stanley Cup rings into any battle. The 4th line we feel is among the best in the league with a nasty human being in Ferguson, a ball of sandpaper and very good 2 way center in Bridgman and an agitator extraordinare and good offensive player in McKenzie. Not many teams can roll a 4th line for an elongated shift and not worry, we can.

    The Scouts boast 3 Defensive pairings each with RH/LH opposites and each with both an offensive and defensive presence on them. The Scouts will not lose either their defensive awareness, nor their puck carrying ability going from pairing 1 all the way down to pairing 3. This team is built for Fred Shero to carry to a deep playoff run. It is filled with tough, hard nosed, physical players all capable of leading themselves on the ice and knowing what it takes to win close hockey games. Determination. This team will not be outworked or outhustled, you will not find any floaters on this team.

    43 total Stanley Cup Rings in the modern era (44 overall) speaks volumes about KC's will to win in the playoffs and in those which feature longer, extended series where we can exert our physical will on our opponent. We plan to do that in this series and be victorious.
     
  5. shawnmullin

    shawnmullin Registered User

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    I feel Seattle clearly outskills KC on the top 2 lines and has good checking units as well. However, I might give a slight edge to KC in their own zone when combining their D and Sawchuck.

    Sawchuck must earn his draft position and vastly outperform Gardiner. I don't know if he'll make enough of a difference. That to me is the key for KC. The other is to maybe get in Jagr's head, because right now Jagr on the 2nd line creates a terrific 1-2 punch. Hurt him, frustrate him maybe? But Kerr and Jagr vs. Taylor and Dino on RW is the most obvious advantage for Seattle IMO.
     
  6. kruezer

    kruezer Registered User

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    Well said :D

    You bring some excellent points as always Pwn, however I think they will not be as large of descrepincies as you would require to pull off the upset.

    Coaching:

    While Freddy the Fog was a fantastic coach, I think you underrate Pete Green, he certainly had good players playing for him, but he was only upset once from how I view it, Ottawa should have won in '22, however his losses to Dandurand and the Canadiens in 24 and 25 were not series' in which Ottawa had a definitive advantage, not after the defection of Sprague Cleghorn. It is also important to remember, that he did win the cup 3 times with those teams, showing himself to be able to guide his team to the finals and not blow it.

    Also, from what I have read about him (which is not a tonne to be fair) he was a players coach, which I think is the best pick for my team, considering Jagr needs a touch of pandering too, and the rest of the team is very self motivated.

    Defense:

    I don't feel that Gadsby so much had repeated playoff failures, but just didn't have a tonne of playoff experience. He played on some awful Blackhawk and Ranger teams and only had made the playoffs 4 times before his arrival in Detroit in the twilight of his career. He performed admirably in the '56 playoffs and lead his team in scoring from the backend, outscoring Andy Bathgate in the first round defeat. He certainly lacked experience, but I don't believe he was a playoff failure.

    Gadsby and McCrimmon, however, provide a formidable pairing defensively for Moore-Cowley-Taylor to face, and due to the lack of offense in the rest of the Scouts lineup, it will be difficult for Stanley to get exposed defensively, especially with arguably the top pure shutdown defensemen of all time playing beside him.

    Special Teams:

    With Meagher-Sutter-Langway-McCrimmon and McNab-Bourne-Gadsby-Ludwig as the top PKers for Seattle, the PK's stack up pretty evenly in my books, and with the considerable fire power of the Mets top two lines (Which are also their foward lines on the PP with Gadsby/Stanley on the first unit and McNab (playing the point)/Patrick (or McCrimmon) on the second unit) The balanced will shift in Seattle's favour as they are far more likely to have their PP overcome formidable PKing than the reverse, Sawchuk's difference in being above Gardiner cannot make up the difference here.

    Tactics:

    Seattle, with home ice advantage in the series, will match best on best during all home matches, Trotts' line outclasses Cowley's even with the underrated Moore on his wing, Kerr will be too much for Dave Taylor, physical and defensively, Goulet will bring the speed to the line, and Trottier is obviously one of the best two way players of all time, Cowley is not near his level. Also Federko's (who was an awesome playoff performer in my books) line will run rampant over the overrated Primeau's (Busher and Conacher made him IMO), Captain Alf Smith was the definition of character and toughness in the pre-NHL days, and could score like mad, Jagr spent his entire career being keyed on and attempted to have taken off his game, but he routinely scored anyway, Dino does not have the defensive skills to slow him down. The difference in the checking lines is minimal I think, but if much offense comes it will likely come from Seattle's side.

    In terms of defense, Gadsby/McCrimmon will face the top line, and pick up extra minutes against the second, Langway/Stanley will handle the rest of the second line minutes and spill over in the the third and fourth lines. Ludwig/Patrick will handle any minutes the 3rd/4th lines will have leftover and handle them with ease.

    If the Chelios pairing matches up with either of the Metro's top two lines, Housley will get badly exposed defensively, which will severly limit Chelly effectives, and bring an increased workload to the bottom pairings.

    Also, if the going gets rough, Seattle can handle that, with the all time PIM leader in Tiger, Alf Smith who was not to be trifled with, Gary Dornhoefer of the Broad Street Bullies, a Sutter, a big physically imposing first line and a very tough group of defensemen, nothing KC can throw at them physically cannot be matched and thrown back harder.

    While Sawchuk is certainly a cut above Gardiner, I would put Gardiner around 10th all time, he can handle anything that comes his way, being clearly the best goalie of his time, IMO, a horrible accident only stopped him from higher ratings all time. I believe I mentioned that Hap Holmes would split time with Chuck in the regular season when I drafted him, though I did not explicitly mention it in the roster thread, but I am just as confident with Hap Holmes in goal, he was second only to Benedict in his era in my view, better than Vezina and Hainsworth. Not that backups will mean much during this series but Holmes/Brodeur easily outdo Osgood/Turco.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2007
  7. kruezer

    kruezer Registered User

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    Also, as an aside, Stanley was not so much pre-NHL as he was just non-NHL, he was a PCHA and WCHL player, just as competitive as early NHLers I think, and as a rushing defenseman, he outperformed Harry Cameron in the WCHL/WHL, though Cameron was 3 year older than him at the time, and hitting the twilight of his career.
     
  8. Pwnasaurus

    Pwnasaurus Registered User

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    Good luck to my worthy opponent this round. We prefer not to think of ourselves as trying to pull off an upset however as we feel much like GM Hockey Outsider does, that our team is underrated but certainly not the underdog it is made out to be.

     
  9. pitseleh

    pitseleh Registered User

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    Seattle has the defense to handle what will be a very punishing forecheck from Kansas City. Gadsby, McCrimmon, Ludwig and Langway will be hit and hit again all series, and they should be tough enough to handle it. The key for Seattle will be scoring from the second line. I don't see a huge disparity between the first lines of the two teams - Trottier is the best player, but I have Moore and Cowley as #'s 2 and 3. But to have a game breaking offensive forward like Jagr with a very good playmaker in Federko, it's a line you will have to contain rather than try to stop. If Jagr can fight through the checks and put up the points, the series will swing in Seattle's favour.

    Kansas City will have to make Seattle hate their life. If they can grind it out and punish the Met's physically, with some great goaltending from Sawchuk, they should be able to pull the series out. Having the equivalent of two checking lines is tremendous in this series.
     
  10. LapierreSports

    LapierreSports Registered User

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    Seattle has the offensive and defensive edge in this series, the only question in my mind is : can Sawchuk steal a couple of games for Kansas City ? Both team are evenly equiped in terms of checkers and aggressiviness. Can a guy like Ferguson disturb Jagr ? By the way, what is the reasoning behind your 2 top lines Seattle ? You feel Jagr has the best chemistry with Federko ? Kansas, how do you compare your def with Seattles def ? You clearly have the best one, but what about the others ?
     
  11. John Flyers Fan

    John Flyers Fan Registered User

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    Looking at the line-ups I want o pick Kansas City, as I feel that this is going to be a very low scoring series and they clearly have the best goalie, that being said, not sure where their offense is going to come from.

    Jagr is clearly the biggest gamebreaker on either side ... and the top line of Goulet-Trottier and Kerr will put the puck in the net.

    Seattle seems to have almost no offense from their blueline, who willplay the point on the PP ??? Because a PP line of Kerr - Trottier and Jagr could be devastating upfront. Perhaps Federko or Brent Sutter cold play the point along with James Patrick.
     
  12. Pwnasaurus

    Pwnasaurus Registered User

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    From the 2 offensive HOFers and the 400+ goal scorer on the top line (not to mention it has 2 Art Ross trophies and 2 Hart trophies on it) and the 2 offensive HOFers and the 600+ goal scorer on the 2nd line. We also have some pretty darn good offense from the blueline as well.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2007
  13. John Flyers Fan

    John Flyers Fan Registered User

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    You definitely have more offense on the blueline ... and Cowley was one of the steals in the draft (at one time the all-time leading scorer in the NHL). Cicarelli is a poor man's version of Kerr, pounding home goals in the slot.

    IMO this series is very even except a few things:

    Jaromir Jagr (by far the biggest game breaker) vs. Sawchuk (best goalie) & offense from Kansas City's top pairing on the blueline.


    I would think about putting Housley on the 3rd pairing and have him ready to play a full 2 minutes on the PP. He's a major liability defensively.
     
  14. Pwnasaurus

    Pwnasaurus Registered User

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    I think that's a major misconception that's become kind of like the telephone game. I think he was average defensively personally and I've been around for his entire career. He's certainly not the Sandis Ozolinsh that he's made out to be. Then again it seems to be popular opinion in this draft that he was responsible for every World War and popularity wins out in this format but for my money he wasn't the matador people label him as.
     
  15. John Flyers Fan

    John Flyers Fan Registered User

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    I agree that his lack of defense gets played up a bit more than it should, but it's still something to be concerned about. I think the real question is, will you math up Chelios against the top line, or Jagr ???

    While their top line is the better overall line, I think Chelios is the only one you have that could match up physially and skating ability wise with Jagr.
     
  16. Pwnasaurus

    Pwnasaurus Registered User

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    I think my 2nd pairing is very very good defensively so I don't have a problem with Shero playing them vs the top line of Seattle at all. Like I said in my earlier analysis I think the key with Jagr is to take away his time and space and frustrate him with many waves of antagonizing, physical players which is something we have. We've seen in the past what kind of a player he is when he is harrassed physically and it is one that aloof and indifferent. How much success in the playoffs did Jagr have against Scott Stevens' Devils teams? Chelios is a different player but not a whole lot different, just accomplish their goal by a slightly different means but I think both are equally effective in taking Jagr out of his comfort zone. You have to get Jagr thinking about how long he can handle the puck and get him to hear footsteps, he becomes a totally different player against a hard hitting, game changing d-man.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2007
  17. kruezer

    kruezer Registered User

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    My reasoning behind splitting Trottier and Jagr is simply to create defensive mis-matches, after I got Kerr, who can play a solid role on the top line, playing Jagr on the second would create matchups problems galore, like I think it has in this series.
     
  18. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

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    While Tim Kerr did sport a moustache, it's certainly the weak link on that top line. That bit of orange peach-fuzz is way out of it's league beside two first ballot 'stache Hall Of Famers. However, it does appear to be your best option.

    While Jagr is certainly the superior player, his mullet may have brought about a conflict of interests if paired with Goulet and Trottier. A volatile mix, to be sure. It's even risky to pair him with a comparitively amateur 'stache like Federko's. But that's what I like about your team. You're not afraid to take risks. Luckily Alf Smith's little-rascal-style centre parted 'do will keep that line grounded. That's a haircut you could set you watch to.
     
  19. kruezer

    kruezer Registered User

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    arrbez, I am not sure if I'm impressed or confused, maybe a little of both.

    I agree that Kerr is the lesser link on the top line, though he is a very underrated player IMO, but he provides something that line needed, like a better goal scoring version of Gillies to play beside Trottier, whereas Jagr while obviously more skilled, wouldn't provide that size and toughness in front of the net.
     
  20. kruezer

    kruezer Registered User

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    I think Gadsby is more than capable as a PP quarterback JFF, he was the third leading scoring among defensemen of the 1950s if I am not mistaken. He can handle first PP unit without a problem, Stanley as a rover type of player is certainly capable on the point of a powerplay, and McNab with his size, solid two way play and big shot will play the point on the PP at times too, a fourth player will be a rotation of guys, James Patrick, Brad McCrimmon, even Federko if a top PP unit needs to be loaded up at the end of a game.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2007
  21. LapierreSports

    LapierreSports Registered User

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    I am predicting that Seattle will solve Sawchuk and win the series in 6.
    First star: Trottier Second star: Jagr Third star: Sawchuk.
     
  22. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    Bill Gadsby's a terrific defenceman. I think he's one of the top 20 of all-time. He can throw big hits (right, Tim Horton?) and he had five seasons over 40 points, at a time when defencemen didn't get points. When he played, defencemen weren't encouraged to join the rush of pinch.

    James Patrick's a very underrated defenceman. A terrific skater who could advance the puck and quarterback the power play. Five seasons over 50 points. Won a Canada Cup in 1987.

    McCrimmon's a rock, but he's also good at advancing the puck. Won't have you thinking Paul Coffey, but he's not a liability with the puck on his stick.
     
  23. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    You know that Kansas City will have the edge in goal. Nothing against Chuck Gardiner, but I've never heard anyone make the case for Gardiner as the best ever. There are a lot of very knowledgeable people who think that Sawchuk is the best ever.

    But I also have concerns about where the goals will come from in Kansas City. Moore's an all-time great LW, and Dino has 600 goals. Cowley and Primeau are all-time great playmakers, but they weren't goal-scorers, and I'm not sure if KC can finish beyond Moore and Dino.

    Seattle has more offensive potential from their forwards. Jaromir Jagr's on the second line, and he's got a dynamic playmaking centre in Bernie Federko to feed him the puck. Trottier-Kerr-Goulet is an excellent front line.

    Both teams have an excellent blend of defensive ability and toughness on the third and fourth lines. They can neutralize the top lines of the other team. And with Sawchuk and Gardiner between the pipes, it could make for some low-scoring games. And both teams have players who can put the puck on those third and fourth lines.

    I really like Kansas City's defence. That Chelios-Housley duo is fascinating. Bill White's a terrific No. 3. And Jimmy Watson is extremely underrated.
     
  24. Nalyd Psycho

    Nalyd Psycho Registered User

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    I've made the case that if he had a 15+ year career he could have been the best ever...
     
  25. Pwnasaurus

    Pwnasaurus Registered User

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    And if Lindros...
     

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