All-time Draft # 6 Final: New Jersey Devils vs Montreal Canadiens

Discussion in 'All Time Draft' started by BM67, Jan 1, 2007.

  1. BM67

    BM67 Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2002
    Messages:
    4,640
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    141
    Location:
    In "The System"
    Home Page:
    The Red Fisher Conference champion New Jersey Devils will face the Jim Coleman Conference champion Montreal Canadiens in the All-time Draft #6 Final. The No. 1-ranked Devils defeated the Buffalo Sabres in 5 games, the Boston Bruins in 7 games, and then the Calgary Cowboys in 6 games to reach the Final. The Montreal Canadiens beat the Saskatoon Blues in 4 games, Spartak Moscow in 5 games, and then the Trail Smoke Eaters in 6 games to reach the Final.

    NEW JERSEY DEVILS

    Coach: Lester Patrick
    Captain: Joe Sakic
    Alternates: Henri Richard, Bert Olmstead

    Forwards:
    John Tonelli - Joe Sakic (C) - Cam Neely
    Bert Olmstead (A) - Henri Richard (A) - Vaclav Nedomansky
    Doug Mohns - Bobby Holik - Bryan Hextall Sr.
    Craig Ramsay - Don Luce - Ed Westfall
    Mickey MacKay

    Defensemen:
    Eddie Shore - "Black Jack" Stewart
    Bill White - Alexei Kasatonov
    Ott Heller - Vladimir Lutchenko
    Lester Patrick

    Goaltenders:
    Martin Brodeur
    Al Rollins
    Hap Holmes

    Powerplay
    John Tonelli - Joe Sakic - Cam Neely - Eddie Shore - Alexei Kasatonov
    Bert Olmstead - Henri Richard - Vaclav Nedomansky - Doug Mohns - Bill White

    Penalty Kill
    Craig Ramsay - Don Luce - Bill White - Jack Stewart
    Ed Westfall - Henri Richard - Eddie Shore - Vladimir Lutchenko

    Eddie Shore – 5’11â€, 190 r
    Martin Brodeur – 6’2â€, 205
    Joe Sakic – 5’11â€, 192
    Henri Richard – 5’7â€, 160 r
    Cam Neely - 6’1â€, 218 r
    "Black Jack" Stewart - 5'10", 190
    Alexei Kasatonov - 6’1â€, 215
    Vaclav Nedomansky - 6’2â€, 210
    John Tonelli - 6'1", 200
    Craig Ramsay – 5’10â€, 185
    Bert Olmstead - 6'2", 183
    Bill White - 6'2", 185 r
    Don Luce - 6'2", 185
    Bryan Hextall Sr. – 5’10â€, 180
    Doug Mohns – 6’0â€, 185
    Ed Westfall – 6’1â€, 197 r
    Lester Patrick, coach
    Vladimir Lutchenko – 6’1â€, 205
    Al Rollins – 6’2â€, 175
    Bobby Holik - 6'4", 235 r
    Ott Heller – 6’0â€, 190 r
    Lester Patrick – 6’1â€, 180
    Mickey MacKay - 5'9", 162
    Hap Holmes – 5’10â€, 170

    Team averages (with spares) shots
    G: 6’2â€, 190 (6’0.7â€, 183.3) r-l 0-3
    D: 6’0.2â€, 195.8 (6’0.3â€, 193.6) r-l 3-4
    F: 6’0.2â€, 194.2 (6’0â€, 191.7) r-l 4-9

    MONTREAL CANADIENS


    Coach: Tommy Ivan

    Paul Kariya - Adam Oates - Gordie Howe
    Johnny Bucyk - Doug Gilmour - Peter Bondra
    Dean Prentice - Hooley Smith - Bobby Rousseau
    Ryan Smyth - Doug Risebrough - Stan Smyl
    Brad Richards

    Sprague Cleghorn - Brad Park
    Chris Chelios - Jim Schoenfeld
    Stefan Persson - Charlie Huddy
    Ted Harris

    Johnny Bower
    Gump Worsley
    Mike Liut​


    Powerplay
    Paul Kariya - Adam Oates - Gordie Howe - Brad Park - Peter Bondra
    Johnny Bucyk - Doug Gilmour - Dean Prentice - Sprague Cleghorn - Stefan Persson

    Penalty Kill
    Hooley Smith - Bobby Rousseau - Chris Chelios - Jim Schoenfeld
    Dean Prentice - Stan Smyl - Sprague Cleghorn - Brad Park

    Gordie Howe - 6’0â€, 205 r
    Chris Chelios – 6’1â€, 190 r
    Brad Park - 6’0â€, 200
    Johnny Bower - 5'11", 189
    John Bucyk – 6’0â€, 215
    Adam Oates – 5’11â€, 180 r
    Sprague Cleghorn – 5’10â€, 190
    Doug Gilmour - 5’11â€, 175
    Paul Kariya – 5’11â€, 180
    Gump Worsley – 5’7â€, 180
    Peter Bondra - 6’1â€, 205
    Dean Prentice – 5’11â€, 180
    Stan Smyl – 5’8â€, 185 r
    Jim Schoenfeld – 6’2â€, 200
    Stefan Persson – 6’1â€, 189
    Charlie Huddy – 6’0â€, 210
    Doug Risebrough – 5’11â€, 180
    Tommy Ivan, coach
    Hooley Smith â, 155 r
    Ryan Smyth – 6’1â€, 195
    Bobby Rousseau – 5’10â€, 178 r
    Brad Richards – 6’1â€, 198
    Mike Liut – 6’2â€, 195
    Ted Harris – 6’2â€, 183

    Team averages (with spares) shots
    G: 5’9â€, 184.5 (5’10.7â€, 188) r-l 0-3
    D: 6’0.3â€, 196.5 (6’0.6â€, 194.6) r-l 1-6
    F: 5’11.1â€, 186.1 (5’11.2â€, 187) r-l 5-8
     
  2. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2004
    Messages:
    11,793
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Newspaper reporter
    Location:
    Bentley reunion
    First off, congratulations to both teams on reaching this stage. Good luck in the final. Now that the pleasantries are out of the way...

    GOALTENDING: New Jersey. The first of many close calls in this series. Both teams have money goalies who have backstopped three teams to a Cup. (Bower won a fourth in a back-up role). Both have a history of coming up big in the playoffs. It's very, very close, but I'll take Brodeur over Bower. One thing in Montreal's favour is the back-up factor. Worsley is better than Worters.

    DEFENCE: Montreal. It's hard to believe that a team with Shore and Stewart as the top pairing could be at a disadvantage. But Montreal has the edge here. The Big 3 have been a big difference so far. Everything I could possibly say about the Big 3 has been said. If they play to their potential, then I think this is Montreal's final to lose. Both teams have a strong overall team commitment to defence. There aren't many one-dimensional offence types on either team. New Jersey has the great Luce-Ramsay combo on the fourth line, but Montreal has the big edge in terms of the third line. One of the most well-rounded lines in the draft. The only team that's on Montreal's level in terms of defence - both blue-line calibre and team concept - was Boston.

    OFFENCE: Montreal. I think the team's are fairly close in terms of offence from the forwards. In fact, there are a lot of similarities between the two teams up front. They both have excellent two-way centres on the top two lines (New Jersey has an edge in production from the top two centres) and they both have a good blend on the wings. The bottom two lines are loaded with grit, toughness and skill. Two edges for Montreal when it comes to offence: they have the best forward in the series (Howe, and that's by a fairly wide margin) and they'll get more production from the blueline. I've always felt that BM's top six, with the exception of Shore, is fairly non-descript: they aren't going to hurt you, but they aren't going to be difference-makers, especially in the offensive zone. Montreal will get plenty of offence from the Big 3, and Persson is smooth, too.

    COACHING: New Jersey. Another close call in this series. I'm a big fan of both coaches. I think they're both all-time top 10 guys. Patrick rates as one of the great strategists, thinkers and innovators in the history of the game. Montreal is Ivan's type of team: they can beat you in a run-and-gun situation, or they can beat you in a rugged, defensive struggle. It's a very close call.

    INTANGIBLES: New Jersey. Both teams have lots of leadership, will to win and determination. You'll see guys doing things they wouldn't normally do in an attempt to win this series. Another dead heat. New Jersey has lots of players who will bring a lot at this time of year. This is the time of year when you want guys like Sakic, the Pocket Rocket, Tonelli, Hextall and Neely. And if I'm in a Game 7 situation, Shore might be the defenceman I want on the ice more than anyone else. But I'll give Montreal the edge. They're one of the winningest teams in the draft. Guys like Howe, Gilmour, everyone on the bottom two lines, and the defencemen are brimming with intangibles. A guy like Schoenfeld, with his shot blocking acumen, is very handy right now. But I think New Jersey has a very slight edge.

    GRIT: New Jersey. A dead heat. Flip a coin. This one is very tough to call. I think these two teams have the best-built collection of forwards in the draft. They have an excellent assortment of two-way forwards and gritty forwards. And they both have lots of grit on the blue-line. The only reason I'm giving the edge to New Jersey is top to bottom grit. They don't really have a guy like Kariya or Bondra in the line-up. As a fan of physical hockey and intense corner battles, I'm going to enjoy this series.

    MONSTER MATCH-UP: Montreal's big line vs. Luce and Ramsay. For my money, Howe is the best forward ever. Luce and Ramsay rates as one of the best defensive tandems ever up front. What adds to this matchup is Howe's versatility. He can skate around opponents, or he can skate over or through them. Ramsay and Luce will have to be at their best every night. If they aren't, Montreal's top line, which might be the best in the draft, will overwhelm New Jersey, and it could be a short series.

    PREDICTION: Montreal in six or seven. I said it in the post-draft evaluations: there isn't a glaring weakness with this team. Unless Chelios and Claghorn go way off the deep end, I think the Big 3 and the top line will be enough for Montreal to be the first-ever draft champions.

    While some might be surprised I'm picking Montreal, considering that I gave New Jersey the edge in four of six categories. But I would say that New Jersey's edges were pick 'em situations. The two categories where Montreal has the edge are areas where they have a definite edge.
     
  3. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2004
    Messages:
    11,793
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Newspaper reporter
    Location:
    Bentley reunion
    How do we want to refer to our champions? Do we want to have a ficticious cup named after a member of the media. (The Danny Gallivan Cup, the Brian McFarlane Cup, etc). Or Call it the "All-Time Draft Cup" or the "All-Time Cup?" Or do we want to just leave it at the "All-Time Draft Champion?"

    Nalyd, what kind of deadline are we looking at for voting? And would it be possible for you to PM the GMs a couple days before the deadline (I'd be willing to help out), to make sure that as many guys vote as possible? It's the final. We need everyone voting.
     
  4. BM67

    BM67 Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2002
    Messages:
    4,640
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    141
    Location:
    In "The System"
    Home Page:
    Worters? Sure, but I've got Al Rollins. You know the guy who won the Vezina and Stanley Cup in 51, was the runner-up for the Hart and got the hapless, he faced 38 shots a night, Hawks to the playoffs and took the Canadiens to 7 games in 53, and won the Hart with the last place Hawks in 54. When he left the Hawks, and they added Glenn Hall, Ted Lindsay and Bobby Hull the team only improved 8 points in the standings. He might not have played 20 years, but he is a more than capable backup.

    I'll give you the big three, but what about the 4th guy? Bill White has more all-star team nods, and played in just as many all-star games as the bottom 4 defenders of Montreal combined, and two of Harris' all-star games were when the Cup champ team played. He got 3 all-star spots by beating out guys like Serge Savard, Guy Lapointe, JC Tremblay, Jacques Laperriere and quite a number of other drafted defensemen. He was called on to kill the final 34 seconds in the 72 Summit after Henderson scored, and was regarded by many as the best defensive defensman in the NHL for much of the 70s. With him there my top 3 don't have to play the whole game, so fatigue won't be as much of a factor.

    Also with Marty in nets, my D is saved a lot of wear with his dumping pucks out or directing them to defenders for the quick clear.

    What if injuries strike? I have Doug Mohns and Lester Patrick waiting in the wings. Montreal has Ted Harris and Hooley Smith. That's quite a sizable edge for me.

    You mention Ramsay-Luce, but what about my second PK unit of Richard and Westfall. I'd rate that equal to anything Montreal can put on the ice. I would also have no problem throwing my #2 line against Howe and company. Olmstead was the regular shadow for Howe during the 50s for Montreal.

    As for the advantage of the 3rd line, I don't see it. They might be a bit better but that's about it. Holik's size is unmatched in the series, and he's probably second only to Oates in the faceoff circle. Hextall is the best player of the 6, and Mohns is probably the fastest.

    Howe may be the best forward by a fair margin, but based on best 3 year NHL production Hextall and Sakic are #2 & #3, and there's the wildcard of Nedomansky.

    I'll admit that Park/Cleghorn will out produce Shore/Stewart offensively, but I'd say I'll get more out of Kasatonov/White, than Montreal will of Chelios/Schoenfeld. My 3rd pairing might not have the numbers to dazzle you, but I'll point out that Lutchenko holds the single game record for Soviet defensemen with 4 goals against Sweden, and look at the stats for defensemen of the 30s & 40s HERE and Ott Heller rates pretty well. With Mohns in the lineup already I do have the instant offense option available without any roster tampering, and of course MacKay and Patrick do offer some pop of their own if needed.

    I'll point out that Persson in 102 career NHL playoff games scored only 1 non-PP goal, and I don't think Montreal can count on much PP production in this series, and his roster as a whole is more reliant on the PP for their points. Based the +/- raw stats of the years I have available Montreal has in 211 seasons had 58 players be on for over 40% PPGF/TGF, and 14 with over 50%, and an average of 31.9%. While NJ has in 132 seasons had 21 over 40%, and 5 over 50%, with an average of 25.2%.

    Lester is bester! :)

    I also have home ice advantage.

    Having the grit edge, while also taking a few less penalties I might add. Using pnep's adjusted playoff numbers from HERE I have the two lowest PIM/GP forward lines in my #2 & #4, while Montreal's #4 is the highest, while the rest of the teams are pretty even.

    As I said I like my #2 against the Howe line as well. Olmstead has a good track record vs Howe. Richard can be relied on to give Oates a good workout. While Nedomansky might not be the guy you want to contain Kariya, but that probably goes double the other way. All in all it is a matchup that works for me, and might cause Ivan some trouble line matching.

    Or an over reliance on their #1 line and the Big 3 through a 4th playoff series could cost them as fatigue takes its toll.

    Will you come along peacefully or must I subdue you some more?
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2007
  5. Nalyd Psycho

    Nalyd Psycho Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2002
    Messages:
    24,415
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    No Bandwagon
    Home Page:
    No specific time in mind. Midnight on Sunday would be the earliest. Depends how much debate time is desired.
     
  6. BM67

    BM67 Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2002
    Messages:
    4,640
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    141
    Location:
    In "The System"
    Home Page:
    Since I had done the stats for about half the players involved in this series in previous drafts, I thought I'd finish the job to see what they look like. Stats are only through 05-06 for active players.

    NEW JERSEY

    John Tonelli NHL GP 1,028 G 325 A 511 Pts 836 PIM 911 PO GP 172 G 40 A 75 Pts 115 PIM 200 WHA GP 224 G 64 A 86 Pts 150 PIM 278 PO GP 34 G 11 A 14 Pts 25 PIM 38 CanCup GP 8 G 3 A 6 Pts 9 PIM 2

    Joe Sakic NHL GP 1237 G 574 A 915 Pts 1489 PIM 542 PO GP 162 G 82 A 96 Pts 178 PIM 78 WC-A GP 18 G 10 A 8 Pts 18 PIM 0 WCup GP 14 G 6 A 4 Pts 10 PIM 8 OLY GP 16 G 6 A 7 Pts 13 PIM 4

    Cam Neely NHL GP 726 G 395 A 299 Pts 694 PIM 1241 PO GP 93 G 57 A 32 Pts 89 PIM 168

    Bert Olmstead NHL GP 848 G 181 A 421 Pts 602 PIM 884 PO GP 115 G 16 A 43 Pts 59 PIM 101

    Henri Richard NHL GP 1256 G 358 A 688 Pts 1046 PIM 928 PO GP 180 G 49 A 80 Pts 129 PIM 181

    Vaclav Nedomansky NHL GP 421 G 122 A 156 Pts 278 PIM 88 PO GP 7 G 3 A 5 Pts 8 PIM 0 WHA GP 252 G 135 A 118 Pts 253 PIM 43 PO GP 6 G 3 A 1 Pts 4 PIM 9 Czech* GP 419 G 369 A 159 Pts 528 PIM 55 PO GP 22 G 16 A 9 Pts 25 PIM 9 WC-A GP 80 G 67 A 34 Pts 101 PIM 51 OLY GP 13 G 13 A 5 Pts 18 PIM 4
    * incomplete stats

    Doug Mohns NHL GP 1390 G 248 A 462 Pts 710 PIM 1250 PO GP 94 G 14 A 36 Pts 50 PIM 122

    Bobby Holik NHL GP 1088 G 296 A 379 Pts 675 PIM 1179 PO GP 134 G 20 A 37 Pts 57 PIM 118 WCup GP 13 G 0 A 0 Pts 0 PIM 0

    Bryan Hextall NHL 449 187 175 362 227 PO 37 8 9 17 19

    Craig Ramsay NHL GP 1070 G 252 A 420 Pts 672 PIM 201 PO GP 89 G 17 A 31 Pts 48 PIM 27

    Don Luce NHL GP 894 G 225 A 329 Pts 554 PIM 364 PO GP 71 G 17 A 22 Pts 39 PIM 52

    Ed Westfall NHL GP 1220 G 231 A 394 Pts 625 PIM 544 PO GP 95 G 22 A 37 Pts 59 PIM 41

    Mickey MacKay NHL GP 147 G 44 A 19 Pts 63 PIM 79 PO GP 11 G 0 A 0 Pts 0 PIM 6 PCHA GP 192 G 149 A 82 Pts 231 PIM 193 PO GP 36 G 18 A 12 Pts 30 PIM 45 WCHL/WHL GP 55 G 39 A 10 Pts 49 PIM 41

    Eddie Shore NHL GP 550 G 105 A 179 Pts 284 PIM 1047 PO GP 55 G 6 A 13 Pts 19 PIM 181 WCHL/WHL GP 54 G 18 A 2 Pts 20 PIM 161 PO GP 2 G 0 A 0 Pts 0 PIM 8

    Jack Stewart NHL GP 565 G 31 A 84 Pts 115 PIM 765 PO GP 80 G 5 A 14 Pts 19 PIM 143

    Alexei Kasatonov NHL GP 383 G 38 A 122 Pts 160 PIM 326 PO GP 33 G 4 A 7 Pts 11 PIM 40 USSR GP 576 G 124 A 219 Pts 343 PIM 386 PO GP 1 G 0 A 0 Pts 0 PIM 0 WC-A GP 77 G 18 A 34 Pts 52 PIM 69 SuperS GP 24 G 4 A 12 Pts 16 PIM 18 OLY GP 21 G 7 A 14 Pts 21 PIM 8 CanCup GP 27 G 3 A 19 Pts 22 PIM 20

    Bill White NHL GP 604 G 50 A 215 Pts 265 PIM 495 PO GP 91 G 7 A 32 Pts 39 PIM 76 Sum72 GP 7 G 1 A 1 Pts 2 PIM 8

    Ott Heller NHL GP 647 G 55 A 176 Pts 231 PIM 465 PO GP 61 G 6 A 8 Pts 14 PIM 61

    Vladimir Lutchenko USSR GP 459 G 58 A 37 Pts 95 PIM 146 WC-A GP 75 G 9 A 14 Pts 23 PIM 44 Sum72 GP 8 G 1 A 3 Pts 4 PIM 0 Sum74 GP 8 G 1 A 2 Pts 3 PIM 4 OLY GP 11 G 0 A 3 Pts 3 PIM 6

    Lester Patrick NHL GP 1 G 0 A 0 Pts 0 PIM 2 PCHA/OML GP 195 G 128 A 63 Pts 191 PIM 191 PO GP 20 G 20 A 2 Pts 22 PIM 40

    Martin Brodeur NHL GP 813 W 446 L 240 T 103 W% .631 GAA 2.21 SO 80 PO GP 153 W 89 L 64 W% .582 GAA 1.89 SO 21 WC-A GP 10 W 6 L 3 T 1 W% .650 GAA 2.90 SO 0 WCup GP 7 W 5 L 1 T 0 W% .833 GAA 1.50 SO 1 OLY GP 9 W 6 L 2 T 1 W% .722 GAA 1.89 SO 0

    Al Rollins NHL GP 430 W 141 L 205 T 83 W% .425 GAA 2.78 SO 28 PO GP 13 W 6 L 7 W% .462 GAA 2.38 SO 0

    Hap Holmes NHL GP 103 W 39 L 54 T 10 W% .427 GAA 2.43 PO GP 7 W 4 L 3 W% .571 GAA 4.00 SO 0 NHA GP 55 W 27 L 26 T 0 W% .509 GAA 3.88 SO 2 PO GP 5 W 4 L 1 T 0 W% .800 GAA 1.90 SO 2 PCHA/WCHL/WHL GP 250 W 132 L 112 T 6 W% .540 GAA 2.74 SO 21 PO GP 40 W 17 L 17 T 6 W% .500 GAA 2.34 SO 5

    Lester Patrick NHL GC 604 W 281 L 216 T 107 W% .554 PO GC 65 W 32 L 26 T 7 W% .546 PCHA/WCHL/WHL GC 313 W 140 L 166 T 7 W% .458 PO# GC 24 W 11 L 9 T 4 W% .542
    # includes 2-1 series win over Stanley Cup Champs Quebec in 1913 where the Cup was not at stake

    MONTREAL

    Paul Kariya NHL GP 739 G 342 A 448 Pts 790 PIM 275 PO GP 41 G 16 A 21 Pts 37 PIM 10 WC-A GP 24 G 11 A 17 Pts 28 PIM 4 OLY GP 14 G 6 A 5 Pts 11 PIM 2

    Adam Oates NHL GP 1337 G 341 A 1079 Pts 1420 PIM 415 PO GP 163 G 42 A 114 Pts 156 PIM 66

    Gordie Howe NHL GP 1767 G 801 A 1049 Pts 1850 PIM 1685 PO GP 157 G 68 A 92 Pts 160 PIM 220 WHA GP 419 G 174 A 334 Pts 508 PIM 399 PO GP 78 G 28 A 43 Pts 71 PIM 115 Sum74 GP 7 G 3 A 4 Pts 7 PIM 2

    John Bucyk NHL GP 1540 G 556 A 813 Pts 1369 PIM 497 PO GP 124 G 41 A 62 Pts 103 PIM 42

    Doug Gilmour NHL GP 1474 G 450 A 964 Pts 1414 PIM 1301 PO GP 182 G 60 A 128 Pts 188 PIM 235 CanCup GP 8 G 2 A 0 Pts 2 PIM 4 WC-A GP 9 G 1 A 4 Pts 5 PIM 18 Switz GP 9 G 2 A 13 Pts 15 PIM 16

    Peter Bondra NHL GP 1044 G 498 A 380 Pts 878 PIM 735 PO GP 80 G 30 A 26 Pts 56 PIM 60 Czech/Slovak GP 172 G 101 A 47 Pts 148 PIM 68* PO GP 5 G 7 A 2 Pts 9 PIM -* WC-A GP 17 G 10 A 4 Pts 14 PIM 26 WCup GP 3 G 3 A 0 Pts 3 PIM 2 OLY GP 8 G 5 A 0 Pts 5 PIM 27

    Dean Prentice NHL GP 1378 G 391 A 469 Pts 860 PIM 484 PO GP 54 G 13 A 17 Pts 30 PIM 38

    Hooley Smith NHL GP 715 G 200 A 225 Pts 425 PIM 1013 PO GP 54 G 11 A 8 Pts 19 PIM 109

    Bobby Rousseau NHL GP 942 G 245 A 458 Pts 703 PIM 359 PO GP 128 G 27 A 57 Pts 84 PIM 69 OLY GP 7 G 5 A 4 Pts 9 PIM 2

    Ryan Smyth NHL GP 717 G 224 A 262 Pts 486 PIM 569 PO GP 68 G 22 A 21 Pts 43 PIM 76 WC-A GP 60 G 15 A 16 Pts 31 PIM 28 WCup GP 6 G 3 A 1 Pts 4 PIM 2 OLY GP 6 G 0 A 1 Pts 1 PIM 0

    Doug Risebrough NHL GP 740 G 185 A 286 Pts 471 PIM 1542 PO GP 124 G 21 A 37 Pts 58 PIM 238

    Stan Smyl NHL GP 896 G 262 A 411 Pts 673 PIM 1556 PO GP 41 G 16 A 17 Pts 33 PIM 64 WC-A GP 10 G 1 A 1 Pts 2 PIM 6

    Brad Richards NHL GP 408 G 107 A 261 Pts 368 PIM 95 PO GP 39 G 15 A 24 Pts 39 PIM 22 Rus GP 6 G 2 A 5 Pts 7 PIM 16 WC-A GP 7 G 3 A 3 Pts 6 PIM 0 WCup GP 6 G 1 A 3 Pts 4 PIM 0 OLY GP 6 G 2 A 2 Pts 4 PIM 6

    Sprague Cleghorn NHA GP 115 G 84 A 33 Pts 117 PIM 265 PO GP 2 G 0 A 0 Pts 0 PIM 17 NHL GP 259 G 83 A 55 Pts 138 PIM 538 PO GP 39 G 7 A 7 Pts 14 PIM 25

    Brad Park NHL GP 1113 G 213 A 683 Pts 896 PIM 1429 PO GP 161 G 35 A 90 Pts 125 PIM 217 Sum72 GP 8 G 1 A 4 Pts 5 PIM 2

    Chris Chelios NHL GP 1476 G 182 A 743 Pts 925 PIM 2803 PO GP 228 G 30 A 107 Pts 137 PIM 384 CanCup GP 19 G 1 A 7 Pts 8 PIM 8 WCup GP 12 G 0 A 5 Pts 5 PIM 16 OLY GP 22 G 3 A 5 Pts 8 PIM 16

    Jim Schoenfeld NHL GP 719 G 51 A 204 Pts 255 PIM 1132 PO GP 75 G 3 A 13 Pts 16 PIM 151

    Stefan Persson NHL GP 622 G 52 A 317 Pts 369 PIM 574 PO GP 102 G 7 A 50 Pts 57 PIM 69 SWE GP 109 G 19 A 32 Pts 51 PIM 163 WC-A GP 10 G 2 A 0 Pts 2 PIM 20 CanCup GP 5 G 0 A 0 Pts 0 PIM 2

    Charlie Huddy NHL GP 1017 G 99 A 354 Pts 453 PIM 785 PO GP 183 G 19 A 66 Pts 85 PIM 135 CanCup GP 7 G 0 A 2 Pts 2 PIM 2

    Ted Harris NHL GP 788 G 30 A 168 Pts 198 PIM 1000 PO GP 100 G 1 A 22 Pts 23 PIM 230

    Johnny Bower NHL GP 552 W 250 L 195 T 90 W% .551 GAA 2.51 SO 37 PO GP 74 W 35 L 34 W% .507 GAA 2.47 SO 5

    Gump Worsley NHL GP 861 W 335 L 352 T 150 W% .490 GAA 2.88 SO 43 PO GP 70 W 40 L 26 W% .606 GAA 2.78 SO 5

    Mike Liut NHL GP 663 W 293 L 271 T 74 W% .517 GAA 3.49 SO 25 PO GP 67 W 29 L 32 W% .475 GAA 3.38 SO 2 WHA GP 81 W 31 L 39 T 4 W% .446 GAA 3.69 SO 3 PO GP 3 W 1 L 2 W% .333 GAA 3.35 SO 0 CanCup GP 6 W 4 L 1 T 1 W% .750 GAA 3.17 SO 1

    Tommy Ivan NHL GC 573 W 288 L 174 T 111 W% .599 PO GC 67 W 36 L 31 W% .537
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2007
  7. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2004
    Messages:
    11,793
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Newspaper reporter
    Location:
    Bentley reunion
    BM,

    I agree that you have better overall depth on defence than Montreal. But HO and I agreed that I had better depth on defence, and I'd say that #66's 4-6 were better than HO's. And look what it got us: a combined three wins. If you can get an injury to one of HO's Big 3, or a suspension to Chelios or Claghorn, I like your chances. If you don't, I don't like your chances.

    Those three will be on the ice for 85-90 minutes per game. Montreal hasn't had that seven-game series yet (they've played 15 games so far) so the Big 3 should have a lot of gas in the tank. As long as the Big 3 are in tact, you will be going up against at least one of them the entire game. In the two drafts that I've been a part of, no team has had a threat like that.

    BTW, having been in two drafts with you, you don't have to tell me anything more about the merits of Bill White. Anyone who's been in this thing with you knows how good he was.

    I don't think Montreal will be overly reliant on the top line. They have one of the best second line LWs in the draft in Bucyk (I'd say that Blake and Bentley are the only ones in his class) and, as far as overall calibre of play is concerned, one of the best third line centres in the draft in Hooley Smith. And I believe Smith had some experience playing RW on the S line, so Montreal can move up to that second line RW spot in place of Bondra, who is the weak link in Montreal's top six.

    Having a strong, two-way second line is definitely an asset. You can move Hextall into that second line RW slot if you want to throw them out against Montreal's top line. That's the beauty of a player like Bryan Hextall.

    You mentioned that Holik would be No. 2 for faceoffs. I think Gilmour might actually be the best face-off man in this series.

    I must say, I was expecting a much better argument from you on the coaching front than "Lester was better."
     
  8. Hockey Outsider

    Hockey Outsider Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Messages:
    4,485
    Likes Received:
    352
    Trophy Points:
    124
    Good discussion so far. I'll try to add my comments in the next couple of days. It's the start of the busy season at work (which means the hours are long and unpredictable).
     
  9. BM67

    BM67 Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2002
    Messages:
    4,640
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    141
    Location:
    In "The System"
    Home Page:
    The difference on D is that in the other series Montreal had the best defenseman as well as 3 of the top 4. Fetisov, Horton and Lapointe were the only challengers. In this case they can't match Shore, and are also challenged for #4 by Stewart and Kasatonov & White are well ahead of the rest for 6 & 7. The Big 3 isn't the clear edge it was against other teams.

    Bucyk is very good, no doubt, and he is clearly a better goal scorer than Olmstead, but Olmstead has about as good a 3 year best offensive production. Bucyk probably is slightly better in the corner, but it's close. After goal scoring, the biggest difference is the defense of Olmstead. Bert gets called on the shadow Gordie Howe, while Bucyk's Uke Line is broken up due to a lack of backchecking. I'd never expect to see Olmstead drafted ahead of Bucyk, but really that is because of career numbers and not peak value.

    As for moving Smith up to take Bondra's spot, it might work on a shift by shift basis, but neither Bondra or Richards fill Smith's spot, so it doesn't really work as a full switch. Personally I'd think of getting Bondra off the #1 PP unit.

    Hextall wouldn't look out of place on any of my lines, as he could fill the role of Danny Gare quite well. Of course Neely would work better on the 3rd line than Nedomansky.

    Statisically, Gilmour isn't even close, peaking at 53.9%, which trails Holik's career average. Faceoff stats from 98-06 have Oates at 58%, Holik at 55%, Gilmour and Sakic at 52% and Richards at 47%.

    Well the thing that holds me back is that I can't find much of anything to say on the subect that actually reflects their coaching rather than the teams success or lack their of. There is a lot of material on Lester's playing and managing, but very little on his coaching. There's even less about Ivan's coaching, as most bios on him cover his term as GM in Chicago. I could talk about his all-star team spots and better playoff record, but I can't really say it's because he out coached anybody with his superior line matching. He is an innovative thinker, didn't try to over control the creativity of his offensive players, and hated mental mistakes when you were winning, but that's about all I can say.
     
  10. Hockey Outsider

    Hockey Outsider Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Messages:
    4,485
    Likes Received:
    352
    Trophy Points:
    124
    Oh man. I think this is the longest post in the history of the drafts.

    The problem with Rollins is that he has virtually no playoff experience. He didn’t win the Stanley Cup as a starter in 1951, Turk Broda was the #1 goalie. Broda started more games, had more wins, a better win percentage, more shutouts and a better goals-against average. Rollins only played 13 playoff games in his entire career. He was the sole starter for just one playoff series in his career (and he lost in the first round). Clearly Rollins played for some bad teams, but the lack of playoff experience is a huge negative, especially when going up against a team of proven playoff vets like Howe, Gilmour, Cleghorn, etc. Also, even though Rollins won the Hart in 1954, he didn’t even make the first or second all-star team. Clearly, the Hart voters liked Rollins a lot, but the all-star voters didn’t even think he was one of the top two goalies.

    On the other hand, Gump Worsley is a very strong backup. He was the starting goalie on three Stanley Cup champions (and was a backup for one more). Worsley led the playoffs in goals against average and save percentage in each of his three Stanley Cup victories, so he was a huge contributor.

    Injuries and wear-and-tear shouldn’t be a huge factor for my team. I had a bye in the first round and have only played 15 games so far. None of the series have gone to seven games. My players should be reasonably healthy. Besides, my Big Three are among the most durable players in NHL history. Chelios was averaging close to 30 minutes per game in his mid-30’s. Now he’s in his mid-40’s, has played over 1,500 games, and is still going strong. Cleghorn came from an era when top players were on the ice for over 40 minutes per game. Park played over 1,100 games at the NHL level and averaged close to 30 minutes per game. These guys, in their prime, can certainly handle 30 minutes per game over four rounds.

    Olmstead shadowed Howe, but was he effective? Howe played against Olmstead’s team in the playoffs 1951, 1952, 1954, 1955, 1956, 1958, 1960 and 1961. During those years, Howe scored 78 points in 68 games. That puts him first in the league in that span, outscoring players like Geoffrion, Beliveau, Delvecchio, Richard and Lindsay. Howe set the single-season record for playoff points in 1955 and led the playoffs in scoring in 1955 and 1961. Clearly Howe was playing against more players than just Olmstead, but at the same time it doesn’t seem like Olmstead was really able to shut down Howe.

    Luce/Ramsay were two of the top penalty killers of their era and I’ve already said they’re arguably the top PK pair in the draft. However, Smith, Prentice, Gilmour, Rousseau and Smyl were all excellent penalty-killers as well. You have the top pair, but I still have excellent top-end talent on the PK.

    I wouldn’t mind a Prentice vs Hextall matchup. Prentice was one of the top defensive players of his day and used his speed, backchecking and smart positioning to shut down the top players in the league. Offensively, Prentice outscored Hextall (points per game and total points) in the playoffs, whether you use unadjusted numbers or Pnep’s adjusted numbers. Also, Prentice is far more likely to shutdown Hextall than vice-versa.

    Smith vs Holik is a big advantage for me. Smith was a 2-time all-star and a 2-time Hart finalist. He was also a top-ten scorer four times, and finished as high as 4th in points (1933, 1936). Both Holik and Smith were excellent defensively (especially on the PK) and were tough, aggressive players. Holik is bigger, but Smith was more physical. I’ll admit that Smith’s production declined in the postseason (as he concentrated more on his defensive duties), but the same can be said about Holik’s offense. I see this as quite a big advantage for the Canadiens overall.

    Mohns vs Rousseau is an interesting match-up. Mohns is extremely versatile and consistent, but Rousseau had the higher peak value. Mohns was never a year-end all-star and was a top ten scorer once (9th place, 1967). Rousseau was a year-end all-star in 1966, a top ten scorer three times (1964, 1966, 1967) and finished as high as second in scoring (to Bobby Hull). Rousseau was a top defensive/PK forward and Mohns was a natural defenseman, so I don’t see a big defensive edge going to either player. Overall I think my third line matches up quite favourable.

    I’d argue that Gilmour is the third-best forward in the series, based on peak value. The only thing that prevented him from being MVP in 1993 was the best season of Lemieux’s career. Gilmour was the consensus #2 forward in the league (only after Lemieux) for a few years and matched great regular season performance with excellent playoff performance. Gilmour finished top five in Hart voting three times (more than any other forward in this series) and he led the playoffs in scoring in 1986 and was second only to Gretzky in 1993.

    Hextall had great offensive numbers, but the best he ever finished in Hart voting was 5th place (accomplished only once). Since he had good offensive numbers but no support for the Hart, it implies that there were serious deficiencies elsewhere in his game. Also, Hextall may have won the Art Ross in 1942, but it looks like one of the least impressive victories ever. He won by just 2 points, and his closest competitors were Lynn Patrick, Don Grosso and Phil Watson, Sid Abel and Bill Thoms. Aside from Abel, that’s very weak competition compared to what Gilmour contended with. Also, Hextall’s numbers dropped significantly in the playoffs. 17 points in 37 games is not good enough for a top three forward in this series (especially in comparison to Bucyk or Gilmour). Hextall’s drop in production in playoff production is almost Dionne-esque.

    Also, I’m not convinced that Nedomansky would be able to score nearly as much in the NHL/North American style of game our teams will play. Nedomansky played three seasons in the WHA, starting at age 30, so he still should be in his prime. However, he never made the top ten in scoring in any of those years. His best season at the NHL level was 74 points in the early 80’s. His numbers were solid, but that’s far from elite production (and far from being the #3 all-around forward in the series). I know Nedomansky would score more if he entered the NHL earlier, but this would be balanced out by the fact that he'd score significantly less in any era other than the early 80's.

    Finally, let’s not underrate Johnny Bucyk. He was selected as one of the top 50 players by the Hockey News. The only higher-ranked left-wingers were Hull, Lindsay, Mahovlich and Moore. He was already a second-team all-star and a three-time top-ten scorer before Orr reached his prime.

    Chelios’s best seasons were 73, 73 and 72 points and Schoenfeld’s best seasons were 36, 33 and 32 pts. White’s best seasons were 47, 38 and 38 points. Kasatanov came to the NHL at age 31 (presumably slightly past his prime) and peaked with 41 points. Even if we give Kasatanov a 50% premium, my #3/4 defensemen should still out-score yours.

    I agree that Heller will score more than either of Persson or Huddy, but my top four, accounting for probably 90% of the ice time, will outscore yours, and are roughly as good defensively.

    First, Persson was an excellent playmaker and scored very few goals anyway. (7 playoff goals vs 50 assists). How many of his assists were on the powerplay?

    Second, the PP stats you’re talking about have only been tracked since 1967-68. Howe played almost every year of his career before ‘68. Cleghorn retired by ‘68. Bucyk played most of his career by ‘68. Smith retired by ‘68. Rousseau retired by ‘68. Since the stats simply don’t exist for so many years for so many of my best players, the results are meaningless at best.

    I wouldn’t mind that matchup either. I’ve already shown earlier in this post that Howe put up monstrous numbers in the years he played against Olmstead. Howe is vastly superior offensively, a much more physical player, and they’re about even defensively.

    Kariya/Nedomansky works in my favour. Kariya routinely contended for the Art Ross and scored over 100 points per season in the dead puck era. Nedomansky was unable to contend for the scoring title, or break 80 points, in the watered-down WHA or in the high-scoring NHL of the 1980’s. Obviously Nedomansky would score more if he played in North America when he was younger, but he’d have to overcome a huge deficit to catch up to Kariya.

    I’ll agree that Richard is better than Oates, though. Both are excellent playmakers with good defensive games, but Richard gets the small advantage. Overall my advantage on both wings negates your advantage at centre.

    I disagree. I’m using the same numbers (PIM per GP from Pnep’s adjusted file). Your top line takes far more penalties than mine. Neely (1.80), Tonelli (1.25) and Sakic (0.48) average of 1.18 PIM per game, while Howe (1.21), Oates (0.38) and Kariya (0.24) average 0.61. That means my top line is half as likely to talk a penalty as yours.

    Your second line has Olmstead (0.75), Richard (0.94) and Nedomansky (0.00 in just nine games). If we do a weighted average (because Olmstead and Richard have played hundreds more games than Nedomansky, it’s not reasonable to just average them), your line gets 0.84 PIM/game. A weighted average with Bucyk (0.35), Gilmour (1.26) and Bondra (0.76) results in 0.81 PIM/game, which is slightly better (ie less penalized) than your second line (though they’re so close they’re basically tied).

    Let’s look at the defense, though, using those same numbers. The defenseman that takes the most penalties (PIM per GP) in the series is, by far, Eddie Shore. That’s bad news since he’s your top skater (forward or defense). In fact, Shore is the most penalized defender in the series by a 20% margin (2.16 PIM per game). Next closest is, surprisingly, Jim Schoenfeld at 1.80 PIM per game. Clearly, losing Shore is a far bigger blow than losing Schoenfeld.

    Surprisingly (and I regret not noticing this earlier), Cleghorn almost never takes a penalty during the playoffs! His 0.34 PIM per game is actually the LOWEST of any defenseman in this series. All this talk about being him undisciplined is completely unfounded. It looks like Cleghorn actually does play smart, disciplined hockey when his team needs it.

    Also, if we compare the top three, Chelios (1.74) takes less PIM than Shore (2.16), Park (1.26) takes less than Stewart (1.40) and Cleghorn (0.34) takes less than Kasatnov (1.03). Huddy, Persson and Cleghorn are the three least-penalized defensemen in the series.

    First, there’s still quite a large gap between Stewart and my top three. Cleghorn is probably the weakest of my three, and he matches up favourably to Stewart. Cleghorn was runner-up for the Hart in 1924 and 1926 (something Stewart has never done) and would surely have won the Norris those two years if they existed. Stewart is violent and physical, and the same holds true for Cleghorn.

    Second, in the previous series, GBC’s forwards were closer to mine. Howe was still the top forward in the series, but Lafleur was close at #2 and GBC clearly had the 3rd best forward with Mahovlich. In this series, Howe is the #1 forward by a wide margin and Gilmour in his prime, or Bucyk, gives me the #3 forward.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2007
  11. reckoning

    reckoning Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    6,224
    Likes Received:
    95
    Trophy Points:
    101
    The interesting thing about both of these teams rosters is that the number of HHOFers is pretty much the same as all the other teams. They had the chemistry and balance the rest of us didn`t though. Congratulations to both of you. May the best team win.
     
  12. Evil Speaker

    Evil Speaker Registered

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Messages:
    5,664
    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    102
    Location:
    North Vancouver
    One thing i'd like to add is when the NHL started in 1918 Sprague Cleghorn was allready 28 years old. Before then he played in the NHA which is a league i'm sure alot of us dismiss when comparing players. During his NHA playing days Cleghorn scored 84 goals 33 assists for 117 points in only 115 games, quite impressive for a defenceman eh. I honestly believe that if Cleghorn was born 10 years later he'd be comparable to the likes of Eddie Shore, especially sinse they had the same style of play... both being talented rushing defencemen with a fierce physical game.
     
  13. BM67

    BM67 Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2002
    Messages:
    4,640
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    141
    Location:
    In "The System"
    Home Page:
    Rollins started the playoffs for Toronto, and after recovering from a knee injury, won 3 straight OT games to win the Stanley Cup in 1951. In 1952 he faced more shots and allowed fewer goals than Turk Broda as they each lost 2 games to a Detroit team that swept it's way to the Cup. In 1953 he lost in 7 games to the eventual Cup winning Montreal team. So in 3 years he won a Cup, 4 OT games, and 6 of his 7 losses came to the Cup winner, and the other was in the year he won the Cup (He strained a knee and was replaced by Broda and Toronto was shutout.). In his 7 losses his team scored a total of 6 goals.

    It also worth mentioning that Worsley and Rollins both played for the 59-60 NY Rangers. Rollins had a better W%, GAA and SV% than Worsley and the Rangers wanted to sign him to be their starter for the next year. Rollins turned them down, as at the age of 37 he didn't want to play for another poor team, having seen enough rubber for a lifetime in Chicago.

    Since Montreal and Toronto had a winning record against Detroit and Olmstead himself potted 59 playoff points, I'd say that's close enough for me to call that a win.
     
  14. shawnmullin

    shawnmullin Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2005
    Messages:
    6,172
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Hockey Play by Play
    Location:
    Swift Current
    I couldn't tackle this whole thing as in depth as the rest of you guys, but there's one thing that really stands out to me.

    I stare and stare at these rosters. Where is the difference? Where is the turning point?

    It's right up the middle guys.

    Joe Sakic
    Henri Richard

    vs.

    Adam Oates
    Doug Gilmour

    These are the two guys at the centre (pun intendted) of the top forward lines. Centre ice - a true leadership position - is owned in this match up by the Devils. They are so close in every department. So close that this comparison to me stands out as the difference.

    Sakic and Richard know how to win the Stanley Cup.

    Oates and Gilmour aren't in their league in that department.
     
  15. BM67

    BM67 Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2002
    Messages:
    4,640
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    141
    Location:
    In "The System"
    Home Page:
    Not to knock your PK guys, but Luce/Ramsay are the best PK unit, and Richard/Westfall are the #2 unit in the series. Your PP will have it's work cut out for it, and with a forward on the point of your #1 unit, I'd think the risk of a SHG would be increased as well.

    Hextall led the NHL in goals twice and scoring once, and was a diligent up and down his wing player who helped the Rangers win the Cup in 1940. Prentice is a "top defensive player" who played for a succession of teams, Rangers, Bruins, Red Wings, that had the worst defensive record in the NHL. How much shutting down did he do?

    From 97-98 through the 01-02 season, Holik had 966 hits in 400 games, and 217 more in 66 playoff games. How much more physical could Smith be?

    Since Mohns spent his "prime" playing as a defenseman, it is hardly surprising that Rousseau had a higher scoring peak. I will point out that Mohns was the highest scoring defenseman in the league for several years with Boston. When you consider that Mohns was in his mid 30s when in Chicago, and Rousseau was in his mid to late 20s at the same time, the offensive difference doesn't look as impressive. I'll point out that Mohns placed 9th in Hart voting in 61-62 and 5th in Norris voting in 56-57, and played in 7 all-star games. Also he was not a natural defenseman, as he never played D before the NHL. He just made the transition so well that it seemed me must have been.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2007
  16. Snap Wilson

    Snap Wilson Registered User

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2003
    Messages:
    5,838
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I am a-twitter with excitement. What year is this series being played in?

    I would be a terrible GM for one of these things. Corrado Micalef probably wouldn't steal me enough games.
     
  17. Nalyd Psycho

    Nalyd Psycho Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2002
    Messages:
    24,415
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    No Bandwagon
    Home Page:
    If no one really cares. Then, I declare Tuesday at midnight the deadline.
     
  18. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2004
    Messages:
    11,793
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Newspaper reporter
    Location:
    Bentley reunion
    How many votes do you have in so far?
     
  19. BM67

    BM67 Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2002
    Messages:
    4,640
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    141
    Location:
    In "The System"
    Home Page:
    Nice to know wishful thinking is alive and well. :) Injuries can come even with a team of ironmen. You have to know what will happen when it does. Multiple position players, like MacKay, Mohns, and Westfall, give me extra options that your lineup doesn't have. Truth be told, MacKay and Patrick probably both deserve to be in my starting lineup.

    No it implies that voters back then voted more in line with the "Most Valuable" rather than today's "Best Player". Since expansion in 67 the Art Ross and the Hart winner were the same 21 times. They matched only 17 times from 24 to 67. Thats 55% vs 39%. Hainsworth wasn't in the top 5 of Hart voting when he got 22 shutouts.

    Consider that the top playoff scorers from 38 to 42 total only 56 points in 54 games. From 89 to 93 they totaled 180 in 106 games. Note the Kraut Line's playoff production falls by a amount close to Hextall's. Hextall certainly isn't a legendary clutch playoff scorer, but it's more era than anything.

    Nedomansky's legs were starting to go, so he was just passing his prime when he came to the WHA. He had to adapt to a new culture, language, and style of hockey, while adjusting his game to fit his declining skill. At some time he also made the move to center from the wing. In his first year in the WHA he scored 41 goals and 81 points. He then followed that with 56 goals, 3rd in the league and ahead of Bobby Hull, and 98 points, both of which led his team. A couple years later, when he moved to the NHL, he struggled but did manage to lead Detroit in playoff scoring his first year. In his second year he repeated his WHA feat of leading the team in goals and points. He then as you said scored 74 points in 79-80, and then declined fairly rapidly.

    NHL stats age 33 to 39
    Nedomansky GP 421 G 122 A 156 Pts 278 PIM 88 GP 7 G 3 A 5 Pts 8 PIM 0
    Makarov gp 266 g 80 a 139 pts 219 pim 218 gp 25 g 11 a 5 pts 16 pim 8
    P. Stastny gp 302 g 94 a 159 pts 253 pim 161 gp 29 g 9 a 15 pts 24 pim 27

    Hmm... Over the first 12 years of his career, up to 67, he had 13 points in 34 playoff games. Perhaps "not good enough for a top three forward in this series"?

    I don't have PP assists from that time, but of his 59 career goals, 36 were PP, or just over 60%. His PPGF/GF figure is 42.2%, so his assists are probably closer to that.

    Bucyk played 11 years after expansion and Rousseau played 8. Of those 19 years, they had 12 years where over 40% of their GFs were PPGFs, and 6 of those were over 50%.
     
  20. Hockey Outsider

    Hockey Outsider Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Messages:
    4,485
    Likes Received:
    352
    Trophy Points:
    124
    First, their teams split the eight series 4-4, with Detroit’s wins coming in 1952, 1954, 1955 and 1961. Second, Howe’s team defeated Olmstead’s team three times in the Cup finals (1952, 1954, 1955) while Olmstead’s team defeated Howe’s in the finals once (1956). Howe’s team won three Cups during the years they faced off against each other (1952, 1954, 1955) while Olmstead’s team won it twice (1956 and 1958).

    Howe was the best player by a wide margin during the regular season and playoffs for the years in question. I agree that Olmstead was good enough to make sure that Howe didn’t re-write the record books, but he was unable to prevent Howe from being, by a wide margin, the best player in the NHL. Since Howe was able to maintain his level of dominance, I have a big advantage in the series.

    But the fact remains that 1) Rollins only had 13 games’ playoff experience in his whole career and 2) never won the playoff series where he was the starter. Even if you give him partial credit for the 1951 final, the Leafs never would have made it out of the first round if Broda didn’t pull the team out of the deficit they had with Rollins in net.

    Sure, Rollins didn’t always get great offensive support. However, in those seven losses he gave up 22 goals in 7 games (3.14). This is very bad for an era with an average GAA of around 2.50. Clearly, Rollins deserves some of the blame.

    I agree Luce/Ramsay is the top PK pair in the league. But players like Howe, Bucyk, Gilmour, Oates, etc., faced all of the top penalty killers and defensive players of their era anyway. Is Luce/Ramsay any tougher than what Howe faced (Ted Kennedy, George Armstrong, Ken Mosdell, Dean Prentice)? Gilmour and Oates have faced years of Lehtinen, Carbonneau, Fedorov, etc. I’m not disputing you have a great #1 PK pair, but my stars have faced players of that calibre their whole career.

    Again it comes down to the playoff numbers for me. Hextall is at 0.44 ppg. That’s unacceptable for an Art Ross winner. Honestly, his drop in production is as bad as Marcel Dionne, and we know how damaging that is to his reputation (especially for a playoff series like this!) (Also see my earlier comments about the Art Ross win: it’s got to be one of the weakest in history. His closest competitors were Lynn Patrick, Don Grosso and Phil Watson, Sid Abel and Bill Thoms. Aside from Abel, that’s very weak competition). Hextall’s 0.44 ppg is also below what Prentice himself scored (0.57).

    There’s still a huge difference. Rousseau broke the 50 point barrier 8 times (years with 78, 70, 65, 63, 58, 57, 56, 51 points). That’s great for a two-way player in the Original Six era. Mohns only broke 50 points twice (60, 53). Rousseau topped Mohns’s career high in points four times. Both were top defensive players so I give the edge based on offense.

    Sure, but having a team of ironmen makes me less likely to be susceptible to injuries. Still, my team is well-prepared for that possibility. In terms of spares, I have Conn Smythe-winner Brad Richards and 4-time Stanley Cup winner, a top shutdown defenseman of his era, Ted Harris. On the other hand, you have MacKay (0 points in 37 playoff games) and Lester Patrick (another player with virtually no playoff experience at the NHL level). Rousseau and Prentice were able to take draws when necessary so they can fill in as a centre if need be, while Smith and (occasionally) Gilmour could play on the wings.

    I’m not expecting Hextall to win the Hart every year, but if he was only a finalist, once, and never placed higher than 5th place, how valuable could he have been? (Best player vs most valuable is always a fuzzy concept, and I don’t think the voting strategies can be so easily divided by era. Iginla vs Theodore in 2002 is a great example of the better player losing to the more valuable in recent years; Andy Bathgate winning the Hart without making the playoffs in 1959 is proof that the voters didn’t always go by most valuable player).

    Look at the career numbers from his contemporaries: Toe Blake, Syl Apps, Ted Kennedy, Max Bentley, Elmer Lach, etc. All of those guys topped 0.7 ppg (by a large margin in many cases), Hextall was at 0.44. They were all able to put up excellent playoff numbers during the same era. Era alone can’t explain why Hextall disappeared in the playoffs.

    Better late than never. :) I agree it took Bucyk a while to start putting up huge numbers, but the fact is, he did! He has playoff years with 19 pts in 14 games, 20 in 15 games, 18 in 16 games and 7 in 7, which are excellent totals. His career average (ie, averaging his good and bad years) is still 0.71, which is better than anyone on your team aside from Sakic and Neely.

    Context matters. Nedomansky’s raw numbers in the WHA are good but the fact remains that he was never in the top ten in scoring, even once. 98 points means very little when the league’s best player that year scored 148. (He led his team in scoring, but the Toros were the worst team in the league. Even the Fighting Saints, who stopped action after game 59 in an 81 game schedule, finished higher in the standings than the Toros!) As a counter-example, consider Andre Lacroix. As a 32-year-old he had years in the WHA with 101, 114 and 113 points (all beating Nedomansky’s career high), with 5th and 6th place finishes in scoring. But we know that those great numbers don’t make him a great forward at the NHL level (or, for this series) because the WHA was so watered down.

    In general, players get increasingly reliant on the powerplay as they get older and slower. This is especially true for Bucyk who played post-1968 from ages 33 to 44. Mario Lemieux is a great example of an older (but still extremely good) player relying increasingly heavily on the powerplay to score. Other good examples are Gretkzy, Andreychuk, Brett Hull, Robitaille, Coffey, etc. The fact that Bucyk and Rousseau relied heavily on the powerplay is more due to their age than anything else.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2007
  21. Hockey Outsider

    Hockey Outsider Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Messages:
    4,485
    Likes Received:
    352
    Trophy Points:
    124
    Shawnmullin, I appreciate the comments but I disagree with parts of them.

    First, I think you’re underrating Gilmour. Gilmour was one of the top forwards in the league throughout his prime. Only Lemieux prevented him from winning the Hart in 1993. Gilmour was a Hart finalist in three years (more years as a finalist than any forward in this series, aside from Howe and Sakic). Gilmour led the playoffs in scoring once and was only narrowly beaten by Gretzky in 1993. Gilmour has basically every intangible you can look for: excellent defensive play, the ability to kill penalties, ability to throw a big hit to fire up his team, the willingness to fight, and great leadership skills. On top of all that, he had excellent offensive talent with a bunch of 100 point seasons and 20 point playoff runs. Gilmour keeps the matchup at centre close.

    Second, BM67’s advantage shrinks enormously if you consider the third line. Holik is a good player, sure, but he’s far from a Hall of Famer, and was never close to being one of the best players in the league. On my third line, I have Hall of Famer Hooley Smith, one of the best and most complete players of his era. Smith was a two-time finalist for the Hart trophy (losing once to Eddie Shore and once to Nels Stewart) and a four-time top ten scorer. He played on two Cup-winning teams and was a top defensive player. I like Holik, but he’s not on the same level of a Hart- and Art Ross perennial contender like Smith. (Looking at the 4th line and the depth forwards: I agree that Luce is better than Riseborough, but Richards (with a Conn Smythe) easily beats Mackay (0 points in 37 career playoff games)).

    Third, I disagree that the only difference between our teams is at centre. For example, I have a big advantage at left wing. Olmstead is good, but Bucyk is one of the top fifty players of all time and has a higher peak value and had a longer, more productive career. Tonelli has the edge on grit, but Kariya was a Hart and Art Ross candidate in multiple years. I've argued earlier that Prentice is better than Mohns, as well. Also, having 3 of the top 4 defensemen in the series helps substantially (especially when his #1 defenseman is by far the most penalized player in the series—I’d rather have my best players on the ice than costing me powerplay goals against).


    The final point I’d like to make is that my players have a better history of scoring in the postseason. I’m using the file that Pnep kindly posted in the other thread (“Request for Playoff Stats”). The only players to break 0.60 ppg in the playoffs on BM67’s team are Sakic, Neely, Richard (and Nedomansky, in just 9 games). On my team you have Howe, Gilmour, Bucyk, Park, Oates, Kariya, Smith, Smyl and Rousseau. On BM67’s team, only Sakic and Neely (and Nedomansky in 9 games) top 0.80 ppg. On my team you have Howe, Gilmour, Oates and Kariya (plus my 13th forward Brad Richards, who also has a Conn Smythe and a record for game-winning goals—his 13th forward has zero playoff points in 37 games). Also, both Park and Chelios were offensively more productive than any defensemen on his team in the playoffs. Given that this is the Cup (?) final, little emphasis should be placed on regular season scoring: what these players did in the postseason, with the Stanley Cup on the line, is all that matters. Since my team scores significantly more in the playoffs, this gives me a decisive advantage. Obviously, the playoffs are about more than just scoring and stats. However, it’s clear that our teams both have great goaltending, excellent defensive players (forward and defensemen) and tough, physical players. Given that the other categories are similar, I see my players’ outstanding playoff performance as a major factor in my favour.

    --------

    Since the voting deadline is Tuesday night, I’m not sure if I’ll be home in time to write another post tomorrow. With that in mind, I’d like to thank everyone for all the great comments and debates during the past three or four months. It’s been a blast. BM67, it’s an honour to play against you in the final. Are you a lawyer? (I mean that as a compliment: you argue very persuasively). Nalyd, I’m looking forward to some great game summaries (if you have time). “War” doesn’t even begin to describe Howe vs Shore.

    And, to everyone: see you in All-Time Draft #7! :cheers:
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2007
  22. Nalyd Psycho

    Nalyd Psycho Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2002
    Messages:
    24,415
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    No Bandwagon
    Home Page:
    GBC, only 5 so far.

    Gotta correct you there. During his tenure with the Vancouver Millionaires/Maroons Mackay ammased 19 points in 24 games. granted, almost all those points come when he was on a line with Cyclone Taylor.
     
  23. BM67

    BM67 Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2002
    Messages:
    4,640
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    141
    Location:
    In "The System"
    Home Page:
    Explain to me how Gilmour (1.26) can take more penalties than Richard (0.94), Bondra (0.76) more than Olmstead (0.75), and Bucyk (0.35) more than Nedomansky (0.00 or 0.27 if we give him 2 minutes) yet your line can get fewer penalties?


    What it shows is the weakness of going just by stats. Cleghorn was suspended and fined by his own team for excessive violence in the playoffs, yet he has 0 PIM for the 23 playoffs. How can this be? Match penalties were not asigned to the player but to the team at that time. At the same time a foul that would warrant a multiple game suspension today would get you a minor penalty back then.

    Since Sakic is by a healthy margin the top adjusted playoff scorer, 1.19 p/g vs Howes 1.02, and Richard was 16 spots higher on THN Top 50 list, I have to ask who you rate as the #2 and how can Bucyk be in the running for #3?

    In 44 potential head-to-head matchups Howe was 18-28-46 while Olmstead was 4-21-25. If Howe only gets 3 points more than Olmstead in a 7 game series, I like my chances.


    How come you leave Toe Blake off this list each time? He finished ahead of Thoms based on more goals.

    Mohns spent half his career as a defenseman, so that's hardly surprising.

    MacKay only played 11 NHL playoff games, and as you say had 0 points, but his team scored a total of 16 goals in those games, and over half those games were for a Stanley Cup winner. MacKay scored over a point a game in PCHA playoff and Stanley Cup play before joining the NHL.

    Patrick also put up over a point a game while playing for the Cup multiple times in a career that strecthed over more than 20 years. He's also undefeated as a goalie in Stanley Cup play. :)


    Bondra has also never been in the top 10 in scoring. Nedomansky at least can say he might have when he was in his 20s.

    NHL stats age 33 to 39
    Nedomansky GP 421 G 122 A 156 Pts 278 PIM 88 GP 7 G 3 A 5 Pts 8 PIM 0
    Lafleur gp 184 g 44 a 68 pts 112 pim 28 gp 4 g 1 a 0 pts 1 pim 0
     
  24. BM67

    BM67 Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2002
    Messages:
    4,640
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    141
    Location:
    In "The System"
    Home Page:
    A little more on Nedomansky. :)

    Players born in 1944 who scored 30+ goals in the NHL:
    Player - Season - Goals
    Ken Hodge 68-69 - 45
    Dennis Hull 68-69 - 30
    Bill Goldsworthy 69-70 - 36
    Ken Hodge 70-71 - 43
    Dennis Hull 70-71 - 40
    Bill Goldsworthy 70-71 - 34
    Bill Goldsworthy 71-72 - 31
    Dennis Hull 71-72 - 30
    Dennis Hull 72-73 - 39
    Ken Hodge 72-73 - 37
    Ken Hodge 73-74 - 50
    Bill Goldsworthy 73-74 - 48
    Bill Goldsworthy 74-75 - 37
    Vaclav Nedomansky 78-79 - 38
    Vaclav Nedomansky 79-80 - 35

    Players born in 1944 who scored 70+ points in the NHL:
    Player - Season - Goals
    Ken Hodge 68-69 - 90
    Ken Hodge 70-71 - 105
    Fred Stanfield 70-71 - 76
    Fred Stanfield 71-72 - 79
    Dennis Hull 72-73 - 90
    Ken Hodge 72-73 - 81
    Fred Stanfield 72-73 - 78
    Ken Hodge 73-74 - 105
    Bill Goldsworthy 73-74 - 74
    Bill Goldsworthy 74-75 - 72
    Vaclav Nedomansky 78-79 - 73
    Vaclav Nedomansky 79-80 - 74

    So the others born in 1944 started scoring 30+ goals and 70+ points 6 years before Nedomansky came to North America, and stopped doing it the year he arrived. Then 3 years later Nedomansky puts up 30+ and 70+ not once but twice.

    The last time a player older than Nedomansky finished in the top 10 of NHL scoring was Jean Ratelle in 75-76. The first time a player born 1944 or later finished in the top 10 of NHL scoring was Ken Hodge in 68-69.
     
  25. BM67

    BM67 Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2002
    Messages:
    4,640
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    141
    Location:
    In "The System"
    Home Page:
    Yet more Nedo. :)

    The only forward born in 1942 to 1946 who played more games, scored more goals, or had more assists than Nedomansky past the age of 33 in the NHL was Phil Esposito.

    Esposito 434 - 190 - 230 - 420
    Nedomansky - 421 - 122 - 156 - 278
     

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"