All Star Team So Far?

[helicecopter]

I'm confused how you make all these points just by looking at highlights?

As for the semifinal, i watched the whole game.

Anyway, more importantly, i already knew Vasyunov and Cherepanov from previous tournaments and RSL action (full games, not highlights).

 

[Slitty]

Unfortunately, aside from the complete game in the semifinals, i had to rely on highlights as for Russian games..

I watched every team Russia game, save [for the time being] the semifinal against Sweden, two times. I watched the game against the Czech Republic three times and reviewed most of the game against Finland a third time.

Makarov is indeed a very pleasant surprise for me, however for how i know Cherepanov i've have an hard time believing he is excedeed by Igor in puck poise.

I don't know if you have noticed in one game + highlights, but Cherepanov doesn't hang on to the puck much. For the most part he either moves it instantly or after a quick little move. While Cherepanov is quite shifty, he is also knocked off the puck in such situations, as exemplified in the Sweden game. Makarov, on the other hand, maintained puck possession for extended periods of time despite being challenged by opposing players. For example, Makarov regularly entered the offensive zone and set up there. His success rate at achieving this has been astounding; and the speed, skill, and puck poise (battling through checks) he displayed in doing so was unmatched by Cherepanov. In contrast to Cherepanov's play along the boards, Makarov prefered to twist&turn in double coverage, wreaking absolute havoc, and rarely loosing the puck in the process. Moreover, throughout the tournament Makarov displayed the ability to beat multiple opponents in a very limited amount of space and maintain control of the puck in doing so. An ability that Cherepanov lacks at this present time. Makarov has been much harder to contain or knock off the puck than Cherepanov, and as priorly mentioned, was thus responsible for the lion's share of Russia's powerplay advantages.

C'mon, Vasyunov is not a pylon and can score at the junior level at least. Maybe he sucked in the games i only watched through highlights but he didn't in the semifinal (the goal was a very nice shot btw, even if Gistedt was too deep in his net; but most other young European goalkeeper would have done the same and allowed that goal) and anyway i don't think he fits your description here.

To argue that Cherepanov's production has not benefited from playing with Krysanov+Bumagin instead of Anisimov+Vasyunov is quite silly in my eyes. Cherepanov's success has largely resulted from the great play and chemistry of the entire first line rather than individual exploits. The 3rd displayed drastically less combinational play, and would have been a hard place for Cherepanov to succeed to the same extent as Makarov. Yes, Vasyunov has been lousy and a huge disappointment - I have already detailed why. One good goal does not redeem a player for being largely useless the rest of the tournament.

The fact he is not as good as those other two defensively doesn't mean he doesn't defend at all though.. considering his 'history', in the semifinal his play in his defensive zone looked fair enough to me, actually i was even positively surprised (that's related with expectations of course )

Are you seriously going to make me go back and count the impressive number of takeaways both Anisimov and Makarov had, and then compare that to Vasyunov's meager number?

 

[Slitty]

Anyway, more importantly, i already knew Vasyunov and Cherepanov from previous tournaments and RSL action (full games, not highlights).

We are discussing the all-star team, one that gets selected based upon their play in these WJCs, are we not?

 

[Chief Jokinen]

Osala - Kane - Cherepanov(MVP)
E.Johnsson - Russell
Varlamov(Price is over-rated)

 

[Panopticon]

(Price is over-rated)

I thought so as well, all the way up to yesterdays game in which he was really good. I still think that Varlamov is better, but I'm pretty sure the final will settle who will get the selection this year.

 

[orangeandblack]

i think at defense, you could go into lengthy debates on who should make it just from usa and canada. you really cant argue staal, parent, russell, e johnson, and j johnson being selected. in my opinion any of those 5 should be selected for defense.

 

[knights2005]

You people are making pretty definitive cases for all-stars before the most important game of the tournament. I realize the thread suggests All-Star Team So Far but I would suggest that getting 2 or 3 points in a preliminary round game against the Swiss or Czechs should pale in comparison to the weight that should be afforded to the performance of a player in a must-win game, let alone the upcoming gold medal game.

Not that I have anything against the Finns, but please - they're not even going to finish in the top 4. Unless one of their players absolutely dominated this tournament (and if he did perhaps they should still have a meaningful game to play), nobody on their team should warrant any consideration whatsoever. I'm sure Lehtonen, Osala and Lindgren will probably pick up 3 or 4 more points each in that oh so critical 5th place deciding game against the mighty Czechs and finish 1,2,3 in tournament scoring. It's pretty easy to play loose and relaxed when you're not playing for anything.

Somebody mentioned that Toews is 16th in tournament scoring insinuating he should not be on the all-star team. And a Finn should be because they've racked up points against an obviously pathetic and weak Group B? Granted Toews had the opportunity because the situation presented itself, but he ceased that opportunity and is the clutch performer so far in this tournament. Until Osala or Lehtonen score 3 must have goals in the shootout of a semi-final game they shouldn't even be on the radar as far as an all-star team goes.

If Canada was playing for 5th place, I'd say the same thing.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I'm not easily swayed. I just happen to think you're wrong. However, I don't think Bourdon should be named to the all star team. Whoa, I guess I just formed my own opinion there.

Congratulations. Next time you want to make a point, I'm sure you can do it by using your own opinion and not reverting back to a decision that Craig Hartsburg made.

 

[helicecopter]

We are discussing the all-star team, one that gets selected based upon their play in these WJCs, are we not?

Hmm.. that's true.. as you could grasp i was discussing about those two players aside from who deserves more top be in the all star team.

I don't know if you have noticed in one game + highlights..

If you don't mind i will base my impressions on every game i've seen of Cherepanov, not only the WJC's.

..but Cherepanov doesn't hang on to the puck much. For the most part he either moves it instantly or after a quick little move. While Cherepanov is quite shifty, he is also knocked off the puck in such situations, as exemplified in the Sweden game.

All true. I would consider two things as the main reasons for that:
-he usually already knows what to do with the puck once he receives it.
-he looks really skinny and lacks strength, even comparing with most Junior competitors (of course that's particularly evident in the RSL games, however i find amazing how effective he is able to be despite not being physically ready yet).

Makarov...
..and puck poise (battling through checks) he displayed in doing so was unmatched by Cherepanov.

I think our argument it's in good part due to what exactly is meant with puck poise.. for us English is not the first language and maybe it got lost a little bit in translation (we don't mean exactly the same thing with puck poise)

..both are not In contrast to Cherepanov's play along the boards, Makarov prefered to twist&turn in double coverage, wreaking absolute havoc, and rarely loosing the puck in the process. Moreover, throughout the tournament Makarov displayed the ability to beat multiple opponents in a very limited amount of space and maintain control of the puck in doing so. An ability that Cherepanov lacks at this present time.

Agree, even if that didn't relate with puck poise for me.

To argue that Cherepanov's production has not benefited from playing with Krysanov+Bumagin instead of Anisimov+Vasyunov is quite silly in my eyes.

I don't think i ever did.

Cherepanov's success has largely resulted from the great play and chemistry of the entire first line rather than individual exploits.

However i think Cherepanov is pivotal in making the most out of Krysanov's and Bumagin's efforts.

The 3rd displayed drastically less combinational play, and would have been a hard place for Cherepanov to succeed to the same extent as Makarov.

Probably true.

Yes, Vasyunov has been lousy and a huge disappointment - I have already detailed why. One good goal does not redeem a player for being largely useless the rest of the tournament.

My point was only that he is not a pylon and usually showed to be able to score at the Junior level.

Are you seriously going to make me go back and count the impressive number of takeaways both Anisimov and Makarov had, and then compare that to Vasyunov's meager number?

No, and i don't think i ever suggested that.

 

[cc]

Because buddy, I've watched all Canada's games, and those stats don't mean a hell of a lot to me. Staal's a rock in his own zone, and has the worst +/- because he gets the toughest assignments. Bourdon, on the other hand, contributes offensively - but he's a defensive liability, despite what the numbers tell you.

I'm a Pens fan, so by rights I should be pimping Letang, who's also been on the ice for 0 goals against and actually put up more points than Bourdon. But Staal has been the class of the tournament on the blueline.

I think all the dmen have made mistakes in the form of giveaways and defensive zone coverage and that includes Staal and Parent. I can point out plays in individual games where Staal has made defensive positioning errors as well I think the dmen have generally played better last year. Generally speaking though, a dman that will play more offensively will produce more errors as generating offense will do that.

That being said, let us not underestimate the value of offense. You need to score goals and setup plays to succeed just as much as keeping them out and without clutch goals at opportune times, there really isn't much chance at winning those close games.

 

[Finkle is Einhorn]

Congratulations. Next time you want to make a point, I'm sure you can do it by using your own opinion and not reverting back to a decision that Craig Hartsburg made.

I'm really starting to question why I even engaged you in discussion in the first place, seeing as how you're completely incapable of processing information. Let me spell it out niiiiccce and sllooow for you, just because my opinion corresponds with Hartsburgs, does mean I 'revert' to that position. I will state again, however, that given the choice between Team Canada's opinion and one of the most incompetent posters I have come across in a while, I'll take Team Canada's.

 

[BruinsBtn]

i think at defense, you could go into lengthy debates on who should make it just from usa and canada. you really cant argue staal, parent, russell, e johnson, and j johnson being selected. in my opinion any of those 5 should be selected for defense.

Johnson and Johnson both had at least one horrible game. Parent and Staal didnt so for me that one is settled. Youre not allowed to cost your team an important game and then make the allstar team. That being said, the USA will probably get one allstar if they win the bronze medal so Kane or EJ will be there.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I'm really starting to question why I even engaged you in discussion in the first place, seeing as how you're completely incapable of processing information. Let me spell it out niiiiccce and sllooow for you, just because my opinion corresponds with Hartsburgs, does mean I 'revert' to that position. I will state again, however, that given the choice between Team Canada's opinion and one of the most incompetent posters I have come across in a while, I'll take Team Canada's.

Very good. Attack the argument, not the poster.

My point is that if your argument is valid on its own, it doesn't require support from a professional hockey coach, so there's no sense in bringing it up, as it looks like your merely trying to bolster your position by appealing to an authority figure rather than addressing the discussion itself.

It's a way of skirting the issue, so much so that the tactic is referred to in the sciences as "ad authoritatem", and its a logical fallacy. Google it.

You presumably have eyes and a brain, so if you've watched Team Canada's games this year, you can come to your own conclusions and make your case without having to resort the old stand-by.

 

[Pipeandin]

Youre not allowed to cost your team an important game and then make the allstar team

A single player cannot cost a team the game. Neither did so either. Better phrased version would be each had rough patches....like every player.


Just a stat I see could be coming a possibility. When was the last time a defenceman led the Tourney in scoring. Looks like Ej and Russel have a chance to do so.

Another topic of discussion:

IIHF Directorate Best Player Award?
Best Forward
Best Defenceman
Best Goalie

 

[SPORTSMANIAC]

Cherepanov-Toews-Kane
E. Johnson- K. Russell
Price

 

[Dominator13]

(Price is over-rated)

best GAA, best SP%, faces averagely 30 shots each game, best puck handling goalie since Martin Brodeur. I mean come on, the guy's so over-rated! Feeling a little sad that Rask coudn't do better?

 

[c9orf]

Very good. Attack the argument, not the poster.

My point is that if your argument is valid on its own, it doesn't require support from a professional hockey coach, so there's no sense in bringing it up, as it looks like your merely trying to bolster your position by appealing to an authority figure rather than addressing the discussion itself.

It's a way of skirting the issue, so much so that the tactic is referred to in the sciences as "ad authoritatem", and its a logical fallacy. Google it.

You presumably have eyes and a brain, so if you've watched Team Canada's games this year, you can come to your own conclusions and make your case without having to resort the old stand-by.

Well said.

On-topic: I liked what I saw of Mikus, but I'm not sure I'd put him on the all star team.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

1st Team

Cherepanov - Kane - Lehtonen
E. Johnson - Russell
Price

2nd Team
Backstrom - Toews - Osala
J. Johnson - Hjalmarsson
Varlamov

 

[Slick Nick]

1st Team

Cherepanov - Kane - Lehtonen
E. Johnson - Russell
Price

2nd Team
Backstrom - Toews - Osala
J. Johnson - Hjalmarsson
Varlamov

+1 for team no1.

 

[Farce Poobah]

I have the privilege of watching Jonathan Toews play night-in, night-out in Grand Forks, ND, and it took me a while to really appreciate how good his play is. He is not the pure-scorer type who will take undue risk for the chance at putting one up. His contribution includes scoring as we all saw yesterday, but is greatest at things like winning a draw while killing a 3x5 and getting the puck iced (or the 3x4 in the OT vs USA); backchecking and tying up his man; flicking the puck off an opponent stick and to a teammate, and so on.

Will note that in 11 games over 2 WJC, he's not been on the ice for an even-strength goal against, nor even a "PP1" as IIHF calls in their stat box. Just one goal allowed, a 3x5 against Germany. As my grandpa said, if the other guys don't score, you can't lose. That 2-way play is why I love watching him play.

He'd get my vote, but hey I'm watching the tournament through tinted glasses.

 

[Panopticon]

1st Team

Cherepanov - Kane - Lehtonen
E. Johnson - Russell
Price

2nd Team
Backstrom - Toews - Osala
J. Johnson - Hjalmarsson
Varlamov

I'd put Osala in the first one and Lehtonen in the second (or drop him completely) and my really really biased pick would be to put Laakso in Hjalmarssons place. Less biased pick would be to put Parent in Hjalmarssons place.

 

[Phenomenon]

I'd put Osala in the first one and Lehtonen in the second (or drop him completely)

Agreed. Lehtonen showed some strong skating and played very well overall, but he was the one in Finland's 1st line that clearly got more help from his linemates Lindgren and Osala than gave them as a return.

 

[Joretus]

Not that I have anything against the Finns, but please - they're not even going to finish in the top 4. Unless one of their players absolutely dominated this tournament (and if he did perhaps they should still have a meaningful game to play), nobody on their team should warrant any consideration whatsoever. I'm sure Lehtonen, Osala and Lindgren will probably pick up 3 or 4 more points each in that oh so critical 5th place deciding game against the mighty Czechs and finish 1,2,3 in tournament scoring. It's pretty easy to play loose and relaxed when you're not playing for anything.

Somebody mentioned that Toews is 16th in tournament scoring insinuating he should not be on the all-star team. And a Finn should be because they've racked up points against an obviously pathetic and weak Group B? Granted Toews had the opportunity because the situation presented itself, but he ceased that opportunity and is the clutch performer so far in this tournament. Until Osala or Lehtonen score 3 must have goals in the shootout of a semi-final game they shouldn't even be on the radar as far as an all-star team goes.

If Canada was playing for 5th place, I'd say the same thing.

So since other team is so bad that they are losing, best players should be penalised as well. Ie. Kopitar shouldn't be top rookie, because LA is so bad? Or Ovechkin shouldn't have been top rookie last year because Caps were so bad? Etc. I thought it was about players, not teams... maybe I were wrong then.

Kevyn Adams > Sidney Crosby
Barry Tallackson > Anze Kopitar

Right?