Speculation: All rebuild related talk (with Poll)

Poll - Would you support a Rebuild?

  • Yes - 100% behind a full 3-5 year rebuild. Trade them All (Ek included)

    Votes: 29 25.9%
  • No - Rebuilding only works if you get lucky in the draft (see Saber’s, Avs, Canucks, Coyotes)

    Votes: 16 14.3%
  • Kinda #1 - Keep EK, Stone, Chabot, It can be a quick fix

    Votes: 65 58.0%
  • Kinda #2 - I won’t support it but I’ll be back when they are good again

    Votes: 2 1.8%

  • Total voters
    112

Ice-Tray

Registered User
Jan 31, 2006
16,288
8,100
Victoria
It's so odd, I feel like I'm in bizzaro land, or simple have come face to face with the idea that I don't fit in here.

So much talk about firing PD like it's the obvious solution. Personally, I LIKE the moves he's made.

Smith has a fine contract for what he provides. This season is an outlier even more than his 27 goals. EVERYONE has been trash this year.

I also didn't really want to commit long term big money to Turris as I felt he was a little lacking to be a guy we pin our hopes on for the foreseeable future.

I'm stoked on Duchene. He's the kind of player we need on this team. The way he plays the game is exactly how I want our top centre to play. Skills, Strength and Speed. And he's young.

I liked our depth signings last year, love Pyatt, and have enjoyed what Thompson brings. I don't care much for Dumont, but then again he costs us nothing, and gave us a body so we could leave our youngsters to continue to develop.

I like Brass a lot more than I ever did Zib, and feel the same way about committing big long term money to him as I did Turris.

I like P9, though his contract is large and long :( I did enjoy everything we got rid of as well as the player we got though.

I feel like Andy deserved his extension, based on his past play. You don't play wait and see with the best goalie we've ever had, who played through what he did last year, and backstopped our team during our playoff run; you just don't if you want to continue being the well regarded franchise that we are.

I enjoyed what Burrows brought last season and understand that the two years was the price for him (not Vancouver) to come here. He hasn't stood out much this year, but he's not hurting the team and is far down the list of problems this year.

I think GB is a good coach, who is looking for ways to spark the team. I'm willing to be patient with him and see what he's able to do in terms of change and growth. Those teams who enjoy the payoffs, are generally those who endured the patience.

Sure he's a bit of a nerd, but I see a man who is passionate, positive, and excited about his job, and is committed to the betterment of the team. he also clearly has a vision, and the stones to see it through. He's definitely a bit goofy, but I'm into shaming people for being exuberant about their work/passion.

I guess I'll be the crazy dissenting voice on the subject just so the rest of you will have to put * when pretending that EVERYONE wants the GM fired.
 
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swiftwin

★SUMMER.OF.PIERRE★
Jul 26, 2005
23,562
12,940
It's so odd, I feel like I'm in bizzaro land, or simple have come face to face with the idea that I don't fit in here.

So much talk about firing PD like it's the obvious solution. Personally, I LIKE the moves he's made.

Smith has a fine contract for what he provides. This season is an outlier even more than his 27 goals. EVERYONE has been trash this year.

I also didn't really want to commit long term big money to Turris as I felt he was a little lacking to be a guy we pin our hopes on for the foreseeable future.

I'm stoked on Duchene. He's the kind of player we need on this team. The way he plays the game is exactly how I want our top centre to play. Skills, Strength and Speed. And he's young.

I liked our depth signings last year, love Pyatt, and have enjoyed what Thompson brings. I don't care much for Dumont, but then again he costs us nothing, and gave us a body so we could leave our youngsters to continue to develop.

I like Brass a lot more than I ever did Zib, and feel the same way about committing big long term money to him as I did Turris.

I like P9, though his contract is large and long :( I did enjoy everything we got rid of as well as the player we got though.

I feel like Andy deserved his extension, based on his past play. You don't play wait and see with the best goalie we've ever had, who played through what he did last year, and backstopped our team during our playoff run; you just don't if you want to continue being the well regarded franchise that we are.

I enjoyed what Burrows brought last season and understand that the two years was the price for him (not Vancouver) to come here. He hasn't stood out much this year, but he's not hurting the team and is far down the list of problems this year.

I think GB is a good coach, who is looking for ways to spark the team. I'm willing to be patient with him and see what he's able to do in terms of change and growth. Those teams who enjoy the payoffs, are generally those who endured the patience.

Sure he's a bit of a nerd, but I see a man who is passionate, positive, and excited about his job, and is committed to the betterment of the team. he also clearly has a vision, and the stones to see it through. He's definitely a bit goofy, but I'm into shaming people for being exuberant about their work/passion.

I guess I'll be the crazy dissenting voice on the subject just so the rest of you will have to put * when pretending that EVERYONE wants the GM fired.

Same here, it kinda blows my mind that people keep blaming Dorion. I don't know if it's some weird coping mechanism, that some people refuse to blame the stars on the team, but reversing all his trades would NOT all the problems we have right now. Like seriously. Use your head people.

A thorough postmortem will need to be done. We have the team, the assets and the prospects to be a borderline contender. At some point in the coming weeks if we don't right the ship we need to dump the dead weight and start grooming the young players for next year.
 

SPF6ty9

Registered User
Feb 22, 2016
2,465
2,441
Caca Poopoo Peepee Shire
The solution to this team should be quite simple:

1. Trim the deadweight, get rid of all these old players taking up a large portion of the salary cap and contributing replacement level of play. Whether this constitutes Phaneuf and Ryan is up for interpretation, but moving them should be explored to clear future room for retaining our players.

2. Keep the core players. Do NOT trade guys like Hoffman and Pageau. These are good players at reasonable salaries who were key players in the run we had last year. We can win with these guys, last year proved it. Trading one to "shake things up" in the short term is probably the stupidest most nearsighted thing we can do. Depending on your opinion of Ceci, it may be worth exploring a trade to be had there.

3. Fire Boucher. It's clear there's something more going on behind the scenes. The players seem to have checked out. Let's find someone with credibility who we can bring in. Not Crawford. Despite the success of the Boucher regime last year, it seems like we need to distance ourself from what it's become and Crawford has the reputation of a hard ass that can lose the locker room. Replacing Boucher with him seems like you're really not bringing in a new guy.

4. If we can adhere to these principles, add Chabot, White, and Brown full time next year to the roster along with the core guys we have, we can definitely turn things around immediately and be a contender. We have talent on this team and when we clear the veterans from the roster blocking the ascension of the young talent we could be a consistently good team for years to come.

Now that said, here's what I expect to happen:

1. Deadweight is retained because Dorion and Boucher seem to have an infatuation with these experienced veterans despite the NHL becoming a young man's league.

2. One of the core players is traded because Dorion wants to shake things up. The return is mediocre and while Dorion may look at the trade as an immediate win, things start to look ugly as early as next year.

3. Boucher is retained because money.

4. Chabot breaks onto the team next year because he's too good not to. White and Brown face significant barriers getting onto the roster because of players like Burrows, Thompson, and whatever former Boucher players are brought in blocking them.

5. We spin our wheels and hope to sneak into the playoffs, and maybe we do. But success is not long term oriented, and that's one of the biggest problems of all.
 

Agent Zub

Registered User
Jan 2, 2015
14,425
11,713
Same here, it kinda blows my mind that people keep blaming Dorion. I don't know if it's some weird coping mechanism, that some people refuse to blame the stars on the team, but reversing all his trades would NOT all the problems we have right now. Like seriously. Use your head people.

A thorough postmortem will need to be done. We have the team, the assets and the prospects to be a borderline contender. At some point in the coming weeks if we don't right the ship we need to dump the dead weight and start grooming the young players for next year.

you're the same person who thinks that dorion has won all his moves.

like seriously we're a bottom five team. and you're still hyping up dorion? trump-esque cultism
 

swiftwin

★SUMMER.OF.PIERRE★
Jul 26, 2005
23,562
12,940
you're the same person who thinks that dorion has won all his moves.

like seriously we're a bottom five team. and you're still hyping up dorion? trump-esque cultism

I'm not hyping up Dorion. All I'm saying is that he is not the reason for our current streak. Nobody has come up with a convincing argument otherwise. You need to take your rose colored glasses off and starting laying the blame on the players. It's easy to blame the goofly execs, but at the end of the day, the fault lays on the ones playing hockey. And the fact is that the players are not getting it done. They got it done last year. They are not getting it done this year. Jonathan Dahlen would not make a difference, Browers would not make a difference. Having an extra pick here and there would not make a difference.
 

aragorn

Do The Right Thing
Aug 8, 2004
28,471
8,999
1. Fire all the management including the President, Dorion, Boucher & staff & KK (will likely not happen). Clean house.
2. Do not re-sign any of the UFAs in the organization & waive Dumont & Dunn.
3. Trade two of Anderson, Ryan, Phaneuf or Brassard this yr or summer.
4, Trade or waive Burrows, Pyatt & Thompson at the deadline.
5. Promote White, Chabot, Paul, Chlapik & maybe Jaros.
6. Make a decision on Karlsson in the summer.
7. Hope Melnyk sells the team to a good respectable owner with class.
 

Agent Zub

Registered User
Jan 2, 2015
14,425
11,713
I'm not hyping up Dorion. All I'm saying is that he is not the reason for our current streak. Nobody has come up with a convincing argument otherwise. You need to take your rose colored glasses off and starting laying the blame on the players. It's easy to blame the goofly execs, but at the end of the day, the fault lays on the ones playing hockey. And the fact is that the players are not getting it done. They got it done last year. They are not getting it done this year. Jonathan Dahlen would not make a difference, Browers would not make a difference. Having an extra pick here and there would not make a difference.


The players aren't getting it done because this is a bottom ten team (dorion made sure of it) who has had the good fortune of having a generational talent.

There should be surprise that the sens are struggling like this with Karlsson not being himself.

Dorion constructed a shit roster and a shit roster means shit results.
 
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aragorn

Do The Right Thing
Aug 8, 2004
28,471
8,999
The players aren't getting it done because this is a bottom ten team (dorion made sure of it) who has had the good fortune of having a generational talent.

There should be surprise that the sens are struggling like this with Karlsson not being himself.

Dorion constructed a **** roster and a **** roster means **** results.
Dorion or Boucher, I keep confusing who is the GM of this team?
 

swiftwin

★SUMMER.OF.PIERRE★
Jul 26, 2005
23,562
12,940
The players aren't getting it done because this is a bottom ten team (dorion made sure of it) who has had the good fortune of having a generational talent.

There should be surprise that the sens are struggling like this with Karlsson not being himself.

Dorion constructed a **** roster and a **** roster means **** results.

Please tell me which trades Dorion has made, if reversed, would make us a much better team right now.
 

FolignoQuantumLeap

Don't Hold The Door
Mar 16, 2009
31,084
7,399
Ottawa
Please tell me which trades Dorion has made, if reversed, would make us a much better team right now.
HOLY SHIT DUDE. You keep doing this. People tell you and you won't accept it despite the obvious sitting directly in front of you and dropping kicking you in the face while you DEMAND an answer despite it being hashed out over and over and over. Most of us think Zibanejad is better than Brassard. And even more think Turris and Duchene are a wash, but Turris had obvious chemistry here. The numbers all support these views.

It just seems like you won't be happy until everyone agrees with you and accepts your version of events.
 

Tuna99

Registered User
Sep 26, 2009
14,715
6,804
Turris trade definitely not working out for Sens. Quiet the opposite.
 

Langdon Alger

Registered User
Apr 19, 2006
24,777
12,912
Pretty much all of them.

Well, the Burrows one wouldn’t make us better because Dahlen wouldn’t help us at the moment. Although it would help to not have Burrows for the next couple of years. Frees up money and a roster spot, so that’s one I’d like to reverse. God that 2 year extension pisses me off.

Turris for Duchene is obvious because we’ve been awful since Duchene got here. Not his fault mind you, can’t put all the blame on him for our struggles, but like everyone else, he needs to be better.

You could argue we’d be better with Zibby over Brassard, but I guess it’s close.

I’ll give him credit for the Condon, Stalberg and Wingels trades because they helped us last year and we didn’t give up much. That’s not helping us right now though.

The contract extensions to Burrows, Andy and Condon aren’t looking so great at the moment.

There were some moves made before Dorion took over that aren’t helping us, so he can’t be blamed for those, but I haven’t loved a lot of the moves so far. We’re in this win now mode, but we’re not good enough to win now. We should rebuild, but we’ve traded away so many picks recently and we have a bunch of contracts that are hard to move. It’s a mess.
 
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BatherSeason

Registered User
Jun 16, 2009
6,640
3,702
Gatineau
Please tell me which trades Dorion has made, if reversed, would make us a much better team right now.

Pierre Dorion's biggest mistakes were the moves he DIDN'T make.

1) Ceci for Drouin
2) Ceci for Taylor Hall
3) Ceci for a bag of pucks

Even if, as some say, "it was never Ceci for Drouin straight up", we could have added Dahlen or a draft pick to sweeten up a deal. But, he didn't. This team can't score and this team can't defend. I would take Thomas Chabot in my lineup over Cody Ceci 8 days a week.
 

UnHappyDude

Fire Dorion
Jan 11, 2011
2,128
175
Just heard Simmer on the way into work this morning. He is advocating a full external review of the organization. He specifically called out the long tenure of Dorian, Lee and company implying that they can no longer take an objective view of what the organization needs.
 
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BondraTime

Registered User
Nov 20, 2005
28,479
23,061
East Coast
Pierre Dorion's biggest mistakes were the moves he DIDN'T make.

1) Ceci for Drouin
2) Ceci for Taylor Hall
3) Ceci for a bag of pucks

Even if, as some say, "it was never Ceci for Drouin straight up", we could have added Dahlen or a draft pick to sweeten up a deal. But, he didn't. This team can't score and this team can't defend. I would take Thomas Chabot in my lineup over Cody Ceci 8 days a week.
Ceci for Hall wasn't on the table. And it was Ceci + for Drouin.

I don't agree with Dorions moves, but there is no need to make up scenarios, there are enough without them.
 

Fandlauer

Registered User
Apr 23, 2013
6,714
3,903
Ottawa unless it becomes a disaster


I'm not going to say Dorion is a good GM, but it's totally unfair to evaluate him given who his boss is. Don't like the Zibby for Brassard trade? It was done to save money and we even tossed in a pick to cover bonuses. We gave away a pick to cover Hammonds salary. We lost Methot because it saved us 4 million bucks a year.

It doesn't matter who we bring in, as long as they are going to be hamstrung by ownership they will be snookered. Every GM makes mistakes, however other teams are willing to pay to rectify them. We aren't even willing to pay the bonuses of players we trade for.
 

Upgrayedd

Earn'em and Burn'em
Oct 14, 2010
5,306
1,610
Ottawa
It's so odd, I feel like I'm in bizzaro land, or simple have come face to face with the idea that I don't fit in here.

So much talk about firing PD like it's the obvious solution. Personally, I LIKE the moves he's made.

Smith has a fine contract for what he provides. This season is an outlier even more than his 27 goals. EVERYONE has been trash this year.

I also didn't really want to commit long term big money to Turris as I felt he was a little lacking to be a guy we pin our hopes on for the foreseeable future.

I'm stoked on Duchene. He's the kind of player we need on this team. The way he plays the game is exactly how I want our top centre to play. Skills, Strength and Speed. And he's young.

I liked our depth signings last year, love Pyatt, and have enjoyed what Thompson brings. I don't care much for Dumont, but then again he costs us nothing, and gave us a body so we could leave our youngsters to continue to develop.

I like Brass a lot more than I ever did Zib, and feel the same way about committing big long term money to him as I did Turris.

I like P9, though his contract is large and long :( I did enjoy everything we got rid of as well as the player we got though.

I feel like Andy deserved his extension, based on his past play. You don't play wait and see with the best goalie we've ever had, who played through what he did last year, and backstopped our team during our playoff run; you just don't if you want to continue being the well regarded franchise that we are.

I enjoyed what Burrows brought last season and understand that the two years was the price for him (not Vancouver) to come here. He hasn't stood out much this year, but he's not hurting the team and is far down the list of problems this year.

I think GB is a good coach, who is looking for ways to spark the team. I'm willing to be patient with him and see what he's able to do in terms of change and growth. Those teams who enjoy the payoffs, are generally those who endured the patience.

Sure he's a bit of a nerd, but I see a man who is passionate, positive, and excited about his job, and is committed to the betterment of the team. he also clearly has a vision, and the stones to see it through. He's definitely a bit goofy, but I'm into shaming people for being exuberant about their work/passion.

I guess I'll be the crazy dissenting voice on the subject just so the rest of you will have to put * when pretending that EVERYONE wants the GM fired.


Odd to see especially considering all the praise he received last year around here, now I personally don't like the Burrows trade and believe Phaneuf is declining at a rapid rate but generally agree with most of what you have here, I appreciate we took a shot, it didn't work out but it's better than just hanging around in my eyes. Time to re-tool and gear up for another shot.
 

Very Stable Genius

#WeLostOurKarlssons
Jan 3, 2005
16,037
3,725
Chicago


I'm not going to say Dorion is a good GM, but it's totally unfair to evaluate him given who his boss is. Don't like the Zibby for Brassard trade? It was done to save money and we even tossed in a pick to cover bonuses.


If this was the thinking, we could have done a lot better than Derick Brassard. I don't think there were a lot of 23yr old power centers scoring 50pts on the market when we traded him
 
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BondraTime

Registered User
Nov 20, 2005
28,479
23,061
East Coast


I'm not going to say Dorion is a good GM, but it's totally unfair to evaluate him given who his boss is. Don't like the Zibby for Brassard trade? It was done to save money and we even tossed in a pick to cover bonuses. We gave away a pick to cover Hammonds salary. We lost Methot because it saved us 4 million bucks a year.

It doesn't matter who we bring in, as long as they are going to be hamstrung by ownership they will be snookered. Every GM makes mistakes, however other teams are willing to pay to rectify them. We aren't even willing to pay the bonuses of players we trade for.

Which is something I always preface with. Dorion has a hurdle that other GM's don't. Though the amount of futures we have given up for minimal improvements is astounding, money or not.
 
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bert

Registered User
Nov 11, 2002
35,984
21,919
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Same here, it kinda blows my mind that people keep blaming Dorion. I don't know if it's some weird coping mechanism, that some people refuse to blame the stars on the team, but reversing all his trades would NOT all the problems we have right now. Like seriously. Use your head people.

A thorough postmortem will need to be done. We have the team, the assets and the prospects to be a borderline contender. At some point in the coming weeks if we don't right the ship we need to dump the dead weight and start grooming the young players for next year.

It blows my mind that someone with deductive reasoning can't figure out how bad Dorion has blown it. Specifically in a thread that is discussing a rebuild. In a thread where common sense comes to the conclusion the sens can't even consider a rebuild after losing 12 of 13 games because the GM gave away too much of the future.

Rebuilding isn't even an option and they are the worst team in the NHL and you think he's done a good job. Bahahahaha
 

bert

Registered User
Nov 11, 2002
35,984
21,919
Visit site
Well, the Burrows one wouldn’t make us better because Dahlen wouldn’t help us at the moment. Although it would help to not have Burrows for the next couple of years. Frees up money and a roster spot, so that’s one I’d like to reverse. God that 2 year extension pisses me off.

Turris for Duchene is obvious because we’ve been awful since Duchene got here. Not his fault mind you, can’t put all the blame on him for our struggles, but like everyone else, he needs to be better.

You could argue we’d be better with Zibby over Brassard, but I guess it’s close.

I’ll give him credit for the Condon, Stalberg and Wingels trades because they helped us last year and we didn’t give up much. That’s not helping us right now though.

The contract extensions to Burrows, Andy and Condon aren’t looking so great at the moment.

There were some moves made before Dorion took over that aren’t helping us, so he can’t be blamed for those, but I haven’t loved a lot of the moves so far. We’re in this win now mode, but we’re not good enough to win now. We should rebuild, but we’ve traded away so many picks recently and we have a bunch of contracts that are hard to move. It’s a mess.
I am sorry but the way to evaluate trades is not only if it makes the team better immediately. This argument is ridiculous. Every deal made should be value based with assets in and assets out while evaluating the players contributions matters it's not the only parameter. From a value perspective he has lost every trade he has made. Every single one. Burrows role can be done by 95% of nhlers for cheaper and giving up no assets. This team's been run into the ground by a guy who never played hockey even at a Jr level that is a doormat to the coach and crazy owner and now the sens are in a position that is impossible to win in. Can't do a quick rebuild and are a terrible team.
 

danielpalfredsson

youtube dot com /watch?v=CdqMZ_s7Y6k
Aug 14, 2013
16,575
9,269
Our best option is to finish as low as possible this season and use this rare opportunity to scoop up a sure thing elite young player. An opportunity we haven't had in 15+ seasons.

People are worried about giving up the 2019 pick to Colorado. That's a legitimate worry, but if I had to choose whether we should pick high this year and keep our 2018 pick, or finish 11th and have our pick next year, I take picking high this year while risking that next year's pick might be just as high.

The reason being, it's rare for teams to be as bad as we are right now two seasons in a row. We've had to have everything go wrong for us to be a basement team. Does that mean we'll make the playoffs next year? Maybe not. We should be a bubble team at best. But outside of getting very lucky with the lottery and winning it from far out ala Philadelphia this past draft, I don't see us drafting as high in 2019 as we have the potential to draft this upcoming draft.
 

Tuna99

Registered User
Sep 26, 2009
14,715
6,804
I’m all about losing right now, best thing that can happen to us.

If we are going to miss the plauoffs, best to lose big and return with a true top Prospect. That’s what we need....And to undo the Turris trade
 
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